zlacker

[parent] [thread] 25 comments
1. nobrai+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:07:18
I am the opposite. I vote up easily, but think a hundred times before downvoting. Downvoting feels like censorship to me.
replies(10): >>FpUser+s2 >>UberFl+e5 >>iamben+Y6 >>ChrisM+J8 >>xxs+hb >>xienze+Db >>zimbat+ad >>Follow+9j >>Follow+Wj >>kibwen+2k
2. FpUser+s2[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:28:05
>>nobrai+(OP)
I never downvote at all. It reminds me for some reasons faceless mob with the clubs. But I have to admit that I do not upvote enough. Definitely not all the deserving posts.
replies(1): >>solark+a4
◧◩
3. solark+a4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:40:49
>>FpUser+s2
I rarely downvote here, but that's because the quality is already high. A part of keeping it this way is vigorously downvoting unrelated/lazy/overly emotional comments, so maybe a faceless mob with clubs is actually what it needs :-)

Only unproductive comments, of course. Different opinions should be welcome.

replies(1): >>FpUser+R7
4. UberFl+e5[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:48:00
>>nobrai+(OP)
That's good because I always wonder about the dynamic of the establishment "old guard" voting down everything they don't agree with.
replies(1): >>Udo+4f
5. iamben+Y6[view] [source] 2022-12-12 11:04:16
>>nobrai+(OP)
Yes, I'm very much the same.

I'm happy to (attempt to! re-)upvote comments that have been downvoted, as long as they're actually thoughtful and contribute to the argument/conversation, and obviously (and often!) I'll upvote a well thought through comment.

I seem to go through periods where I downvote more often, but almost without exception it's just downvoting pointless/sarcastic/unpleasant comments. Gotta say though - for a 10+ year old community, I remain amazed that the discourse is usually civil, largely intelligent and still(!) remains spam free.

◧◩◪
6. FpUser+R7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:13:27
>>solark+a4
>"so maybe a faceless mob with clubs is actually what it needs :-)"

I think it needs moderators doing their jobs with appropriate tools.

replies(1): >>sokolo+S9
7. ChrisM+J8[view] [source] 2022-12-12 11:21:44
>>nobrai+(OP)
Same here. I will also often vouch new comments; even if I don't agree with them. The bar is whether or not they are coming from a respectful and contribute to the conversation.
◧◩◪◨
8. sokolo+S9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:33:18
>>FpUser+R7
What if those appropriate tools include upvote/downvote/flag/vouch by community members?
replies(1): >>FpUser+8k
9. xxs+hb[view] [source] 2022-12-12 11:44:47
>>nobrai+(OP)
>Downvoting feels like censorship to me.

because it works that way here

10. xienze+Db[view] [source] 2022-12-12 11:47:09
>>nobrai+(OP)
I wonder why this site -- or any site with up/downvoting, really -- doesn't implement a "must comment to downvote" policy. Far too often downvoting is just the "I disagree and think you suck" button[0]. Make someone elaborate on _why_ they disagree or _why_ the original poster is wrong before allowing a downvote.

0: in particular, on HN the downvote button also seems to serve the purpose of "I don't think other people should see what you have to say" button due to HN's passive-aggressive greying out of downvoted comments.

replies(4): >>detaro+Ub >>Udo+Fd >>jwarde+Kf >>acdha+sk
◧◩
11. detaro+Ub[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:49:49
>>xienze+Db
That's a surefire way to give more attention to bad posts and cause flamewars that spiral out of control.
replies(1): >>xienze+Lg
12. zimbat+ad[view] [source] 2022-12-12 12:01:00
>>nobrai+(OP)
What we're looking for are high signal/noise ration posts to expand the conversation into new areas that are interesting.

If the ratio is too low (eg: spam, shallow content, same old tired point), it's not an issue to downvote IMO. That helps with the current post and also encourages good behaviour in the future.

This is not the same as downvoting with a point that you personally disagree with. This is censorship and toxic to the community.

replies(1): >>Follow+oj
◧◩
13. Udo+Fd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:04:48
>>xienze+Db
People have differing opinions on downvoting. The majority seems to think that disagreement is enough. Personally, I'm in the same camp as you: a comment has to actively detract from the conversation to get my downvote. I don't see HN changing in that regard though.

Requiring a comment is probably a bit much, but I do think two separate downvote buttons would be helpful to the commenter, even if only they could see this feedback. Maybe one link labeled with "disagree" and one with "low quality" or something. UI-wise this would have the added benefit of letting new users know that HN officially expects them to consider both options.

◧◩
14. Udo+4f[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:14:51
>>UberFl+e5
Whoever the "old guard" is, they don't have special downvoting powers, do they? In the end, it's a numbers game. As far as I can tell, every user gets exactly one vote, no matter how influential. If "they" really hate you, or if enough normal users flag you, HN has other ways of letting you know, like shadow banning/auto-deading or flagging your account so your comments immediately fall to the bottom of the page no matter how many upvotes they receive. As long as you don't see either effect, you're probably doing okay here.
replies(1): >>aeyes+Ri
◧◩
15. jwarde+Kf[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:20:44
>>xienze+Db
It’s a great idea. And it doesn’t have to be a comment. It just needs to be a reason. It could be a tag, possibly corresponding to a specific guideline on the site. #flamebate, #tangent, etc.
◧◩◪
16. xienze+Lg[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:29:56
>>detaro+Ub
I think you’re making the flawed assumption that no one would ever downvote something that might be well-intentioned, well-argued, but unpopular (for example, literally anything about Covid that goes against popular opinion).
replies(1): >>detaro+2h
◧◩◪◨
17. detaro+2h[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:32:14
>>xienze+Lg
No, I'm not assuming that. You can't have "must comment to downvote" just for those though, and having it for all is bad for the given reasons.
◧◩◪
18. aeyes+Ri[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:49:16
>>Udo+4f
Can you even downvote on new accounts?
replies(1): >>Udo+7j
◧◩◪◨
19. Udo+7j[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:51:14
>>aeyes+Ri
You need to be above a certain karma threshold, but it's not high (500 or so).
20. Follow+9j[view] [source] 2022-12-12 12:51:24
>>nobrai+(OP)
> Downvoting feels like censorship to me.

It is. As is upvoting, since it makes the unvoted and down voted harder to see.

I do not understand why people think this "mob rule" of up and down voting will end up with the "best" things being selected. It will only be the most common/neutral things being brought to our attention.

Unpopular ideas are not wrong, just unpopular. Just ask Copernicus.

◧◩
21. Follow+oj[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:53:35
>>zimbat+ad
> This is not the same as downvoting with a point that you personally disagree with. This is censorship and toxic to the community.

But this is what CONSTANTLY happens here. It is the norm everywhere there is likes/dislikes. It is inverse authoritarianism.

replies(1): >>zimbat+PU
22. Follow+Wj[view] [source] 2022-12-12 12:57:10
>>nobrai+(OP)
There are going to be so many random up and down votes in this thread... :)
23. kibwen+2k[view] [source] 2022-12-12 12:57:59
>>nobrai+(OP)
Upvoting is just as censoring as downvoting is, which is to say, it's not censorship at all. "Free speech" does not mean that all speech is equally valuable. Some speech is worthless noise, and recognizing that is the only way to have useful discourse in an open forum.
◧◩◪◨⬒
24. FpUser+8k[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:58:57
>>sokolo+S9
I do not believe those "tools" to be appropriate. Others can of course feel different but I do not care. There is no need to "win" the argument.
◧◩
25. acdha+sk[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 13:01:37
>>xienze+Db
That idea could work when it’s something relatively mild, and not attached to a larger media campaign – classic HN fare like this thread may have disagreements but all of the participants generally want to be here, are legitimately interested in the topic, and usually have some level of expertise and interest in being correct.

I don’t think it would be viable in the threads which touch on larger societal debates. A great example would be election topics after Trump started lying about election fraud and that message became something media outlets started pushing to millions of people on topics many people here are interested in like election systems or forensic analysis. That leads to waves of people repeating long-debunked claims ad nauseam and because they aren’t here to learn or even debate rationally, there’s not much point in filling up the thread with 200 comments saying “This is not true. See http…” over and over, and the volume means that the kind of people we’d most want to have involved in such a thread are going to get tired of it and move on.

One natural response is to say “no politics” but that’s really not possible given the involvement of IT in almost everything now and the areas where legislation is being proposed. The approach of having skilled people like dang moderate threads works well but it’s very expensive, so I think the community downvoting low-value posts is probably a necessary evil. It’d be tempting to have some way to say that someone isn’t contributing to a thread to boot them out but that seems hard to do without being too slow to matter or prone to brigading. Labeling might be worth trying, as much as a social cue to the voter as new information for the moderators.

◧◩◪
26. zimbat+PU[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 16:21:19
>>Follow+oj
It would be interesting to ask users to classify their up/downvotes as opinion vs signal/noise ratio. Maybe that's the next evolution of leaderboard systems like HN/reddit?
[go to top]