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1. Justsi+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-07-09 18:56:15
IF you are in combat and you see a red cross vehicle, it is important for your first reaction being "that is not where the enemy is" vs firing at it.

This saves lives, and protects those who run into danger zones to save people.

If we slap red cross symbols on people with medical equipment that you see in video games, it'll just dilute the meaning and maybe next time someone sees a vehicle with the red cross symbol they'll think "oh, that's just the enemy's medics" and throw a grenade that way.

If I understand correctly the red cross will treat anyone regardless of the side they came in with.

replies(7): >>throwa+61 >>throwe+q1 >>camjoh+73 >>scarby+k3 >>lvs+h7 >>shreys+kr >>rozab+TQ
2. throwa+61[view] [source] 2021-07-09 19:02:23
>>Justsi+(OP)
Is there even a single documented case where this has happened?
replies(3): >>Cobras+c2 >>pugwor+Jl >>aeturn+ax
3. throwe+q1[view] [source] 2021-07-09 19:04:03
>>Justsi+(OP)
This only works with people who follow your rules of warfare.

Otherwise, the red cross symbol just becomes a huge target painted on you.

replies(2): >>crooke+P2 >>mcguir+9o
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4. Cobras+c2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:07:43
>>throwa+61
Of Red Cross buildings/vehicles/personnel being bombed? Lots of them. Here are the first three I found on Google.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolo_hospital_airstrike

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/us-admits-bombing-red-cross-...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1523489/

replies(2): >>Vaslo+n3 >>throwa+z3
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5. crooke+P2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:10:57
>>throwe+q1
People do in fact generally (but not always) respect the neutrality of the Red Cross and Red Crescent organizations, including in current conflicts between the Taliban and the government of Afghanistan, where they've had access to prisoners from both sides and run landmine injury rehabilitation centers.
6. camjoh+73[view] [source] 2021-07-09 19:12:25
>>Justsi+(OP)
They should probably create a more distinctive logo to avoid that, it’s a lot easier to think the Red Cross is public domain than something more distinctive.
replies(2): >>johnco+G5 >>alison+VQ
7. scarby+k3[view] [source] 2021-07-09 19:13:50
>>Justsi+(OP)
> If we slap red cross symbols on people with medical equipment that you see in video games, it'll just dilute the meaning and maybe next time someone sees a vehicle with the red cross symbol they'll think "oh, that's just the enemy's medics" and throw a grenade that way.

The red cross is used by the enemies medics. It's one of main allowed uses.

The issue comes with a distinction not commonly used in video games, true medics using the red cross as a logo are designated non-combatants, while they are armed they are only to use their weapons in protection of themselves or their patients and under no circumstances are they to directly engage in offensive military operations.

It's also part of the reason why combat medics in the US no longer use the symbol, without it they can act offensively

Also the Taliban have no qualms about destroying an ambulance or shooting a medic.

replies(1): >>throw0+o9
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8. Vaslo+n3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:13:56
>>Cobras+c2
So there were video games in 1935 that caused the Dolo air strike? I think the issue is around why (or whether) video games cause this, not if there were ever assholes who tried to bomb them.
replies(2): >>addict+55 >>MattRi+g8
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9. throwa+z3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:15:10
>>Cobras+c2
Not seeing where videogames caused these...
replies(1): >>MattRi+I7
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10. addict+55[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:22:52
>>Vaslo+n3
Except they aren’t claiming that it’s only video games.

They’ve only mentioned it as one avenue of misuse.

replies(1): >>throwa+k6
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11. johnco+G5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:26:14
>>camjoh+73
If they do that and all the ambulances, hospitals etc. change to the new symbol, that symbol will have the same problem in a few decades because it will be similarly omnipresent. Considering it’ll probably take about as long for all the equipment and buildings to relabel, it doesn’t seem like a practical solution.
replies(1): >>harima+9V
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12. throwa+k6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:30:45
>>addict+55
Is there any evidence at all that misuse from video games or any other kind of media have contributed to any of these fatalities?
replies(1): >>jagrsw+Hq
13. lvs+h7[view] [source] 2021-07-09 19:36:18
>>Justsi+(OP)
Article 19 of the First Geneva Convention covers all medical units, not just the Red Cross. It is just as illegal to target an enemy medic as it is to target a Red Cross medic. Both are war crimes.
replies(1): >>pvalde+2A
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14. MattRi+I7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:39:13
>>throwa+z3
Are they supposed to wait until videogames cause an issue, and not be proactive? And how would you ever prove such a thing?
replies(1): >>throwa+oa
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15. MattRi+g8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:42:16
>>Vaslo+n3
The claim is not only about video games. And it makes more sense to be proactive about protecting their brand, rather than only reacting once an issue arises.

Also how would you even prove such a connection? What combatant is ever going to say “I’m sorry, I shot you because I thought you were the enemy’s medic and not the red cross due to decades of brand dilution”.

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16. throw0+o9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:50:01
>>scarby+k3
> Also the Taliban have no qualms about destroying an ambulance or shooting a medic.

They've gone back and forth depending on their perception of how well the ICRC is doing its job:

* Withdrawal: https://www.rferl.org/a/afghanistan-taliban-withdraws-icrc-s...

* Restoration: http://cms.trust.org/item/20181012103241-lymfx

* https://www.npr.org/2019/09/16/761152686/taliban-lifts-ban-o...

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17. throwa+oa[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 19:55:05
>>MattRi+I7
> Are they supposed to wait until videogames cause an issue

I'm asking "are they insinuating that appropriation of their trademark contributed to the deaths that they cited".

> And how would you ever prove such a thing?

Presumably *if* they are alleging a causal relationship between trademark appropriation and violence against personnel they have some reason to suspect that the causal relationship exists.

replies(1): >>mcguir+Nn
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18. pugwor+Jl[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 21:09:53
>>throwa+61
I believe that's somewhat the point of the second sentence quoted earlier. They are saying they've got people dying while serving with the Red Cross - and perhaps an implication is that dilution of the symbol is one cause.

Irrespective they are asking to be taken seriously - it's not Kleenex™ asking to not to use kleenex generically.

replies(1): >>throwa+Er
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19. mcguir+Nn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 21:22:14
>>throwa+oa
The logos of the Red Cross, among a few others, are specifically mentioned in international law, including the Geneva Conventions. Firing on vehicles or personnel displaying the logos is, unless they do some very specific bad things, a war crime.

There are a number of incidents mentioned in the post and in this thread where Red Cross workers were injured or killed by combatants. Do I have any reason to believe any of them involve "appropriation of their trademark contributed to the deaths"? No, although I would believe that the defense in most cases would be "a mistake was made". But the Red Cross (and a lot of other people) have good reason to defend those logos.

International Humanitarian Law (https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/home):

"Rule 25. Medical personnel exclusively assigned to medical duties must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they commit, outside their humanitarian function, acts harmful to the enemy."

"Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy."

"Rule 29. Medical transports assigned exclusively to medical transportation must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy."

"Rule 59. The improper use of the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions is prohibited."

(The Red Cross logos are such distinctive emblems.)

replies(3): >>throwa+sr >>tialar+7s >>jhgb+AA
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20. mcguir+9o[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 21:23:53
>>throwe+q1
This is true. But not following the rules of war, particularly if you are the weaker side, is not a good idea.
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21. jagrsw+Hq[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 21:41:56
>>throwa+k6
I guess the reasoning is as follows: Ignoring or being ignorant about visual signals associated with live/health threatening objects/situations (Red Cross sign, high voltage logo, radiation/pathogen/hazards logos etc.) undoubtedly cost(ed) lives in the past, and actions which are contributing to confusion about those signs should share some part of the blame, instinctively proportionally to their public influence. I think I can live with this approach, if we don't stretch it too far.

It's not unthinkable to conceive a scenario in which this symbol is misinterpreted, loss of health or life or property follows, and the ignorance of the perpetrators cannot be pinpointed - maybe it'd be lack of proper education, maybe missing classes during military training, maybe seeing red-cross logo misused in games, maybe bad memory - the thing is that all of those explanations are IMO "reasonable", so we might want to do at least something about each of those (if possible).

22. shreys+kr[view] [source] 2021-07-09 21:46:22
>>Justsi+(OP)
And the military must receive training for it. If a soldier "throws a grenade" at a red cross, it's lack of training, not video games.
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23. throwa+sr[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 21:47:43
>>mcguir+Nn
I don't dispute that the RC logo is special per international law; I don't see what that has to do with anything here. I also don't object to "the Red Cross wants to protect its trademark"; I only object to the implication that appropriation of the RC logo in the media poses any kind of threat to RC personnel.
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24. throwa+Er[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 21:48:51
>>pugwor+Jl
I don't have a problem with people protecting their trademarks, whether Kleenex or RC. I just didn't think they were going to make the "trademark violations kill" argument. Kind of puts the MPAA's "You wouldn't steal a car..." marketing into perspective.
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25. tialar+7s[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 21:52:49
>>mcguir+Nn
Right. There are several less well known protective marks, all red symbols on a white background. There's a red crescent, and a red crystal (an uncontroversial geometric shape which conveniently is also hollow so you can put some other symbol in there if that's important to you) and historically a red lion with sun.

The purpose of these symbols is to unambiguously identify protected vehicles, protected buildings, protected people.

It's true that in some countries people slap red crosses (in particular) on stuff that shouldn't have them and doesn't need them. But that doesn't make it a good idea. In a video game in particular you could use any symbol and players would soon get the idea. How long do you think it takes Mario players to realise that one of the mushrooms makes Mario bigger, while a different one is an extra life?

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26. aeturn+ax[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 22:32:19
>>throwa+61
They are not proposing a 1:1 relationship between use in games and medics being killed. That's not really how the meaning of symbols change. They are saying that using the medical symbol for game or media elements who are appropriate targets dilutes the clarity of the symbol. I think the argument is pretty straightforward and I'm not sure how one would "document" a symbolic dilution beyond suggesting that it will happen.

Also, if you are asking for examples in media, they are extremely easy to find. Here's an example from a comic strip commenting on TF2: https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/217534009_hZ5oD/0/1050x100...

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27. pvalde+2A[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 22:53:37
>>lvs+h7
And the law will fall on offenders with the force of ten eider feather pillows
replies(1): >>pindab+F71
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28. jhgb+AA[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-09 22:58:10
>>mcguir+Nn
> Firing on vehicles or personnel displaying the logos is, unless they do some very specific bad things, a war crime.

Well, that settles it. Any games depicting red crosses should be patched to check if the player is shooting at vehicles or people marked with a red cross in the game, and if so, report him to the nearest police unit for an arrest.

29. rozab+TQ[view] [source] 2021-07-10 01:56:07
>>Justsi+(OP)
If trained soldiers were instinctively doing what they have done before in video games, we would have FAR bigger problems than this
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30. alison+VQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-10 01:56:09
>>camjoh+73
While we're here, LIFEGUARD is also a trademark and they expect all pool watchers to pay the license fee for pool watching gear with that word on it.
replies(1): >>camjoh+Y21
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31. harima+9V[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-10 02:53:25
>>johnco+G5
I don't think that's likely to be the case. A red cross has already become established a generic symbol for medical things. It is unlikely that would change if the Red Cross organization changed its logo.
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32. camjoh+Y21[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-10 04:59:42
>>alison+VQ
Maybe we need anti trust legislation for trademarks.
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33. pindab+F71[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-10 06:20:06
>>pvalde+2A
While I like the play on words I don’t think we should be posting unsupported cynicism like this.
replies(1): >>pvalde+Sd3
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34. pvalde+Sd3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-07-11 09:47:45
>>pindab+F71
I think that the cynism here is fully supported.

Was anybody prosecuted by the infamous 2007 attack to an ambulance in Baghdad shown by Wikileaks, (oh, yes... Manning of course. Silly me. I almost forgot)

Was anybody jailed for the men and woman and children burnt alive by the "strictly forbidden under international laws" white phosphorus in Fallujah? noope

Were the systematic bombing of hospitals and civil buildings in Gaza, Pakistan or Syria investigated?

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-gaza-hospitals-tar...

Was somebody prosecuted by what they did to Omran Daqneesh and his family?.

Or by the annexation of Crimea?

I could spent the next hour enumerating cases of war crimes written in flashing neon letters, solved with a path in the shoulder to the criminals. Is a fact that war crimes go often unpunished when commit by "the good guys".

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