zlacker

[parent] [thread] 36 comments
1. kelnos+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-06-04 07:07:02
Pretty sure if I ran an organization that funds a bunch of labs that do virus research, and a global pandemic started in the neighborhood of a lab doing virus research, and people started floating the theory that the virus leaked from that lab, one of the first things I'd do is call my grant-funding team and ask them if we funded that lab. If Fauci didn't do that, he's a strange dude.
replies(5): >>stef25+49 >>throwa+xj >>elcome+In >>base69+cO >>boring+sR
2. stef25+49[view] [source] 2021-06-04 09:15:38
>>kelnos+(OP)
100K from a 5B budget is peanuts and you couldn't reasonably expect the person at the top to know the details of what each recipient of 100K is doing exactly.

If all of the 5B is spent on coronavirus research then it's a different story. Most likely it's spent on an incredibly wide array of topics.

replies(3): >>Closi+sc >>andi99+ye >>weaksa+y81
◧◩
3. Closi+sc[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 10:03:27
>>stef25+49
This is the difference between responsibility and accountability.

The person at the top might not know what each recipient is doing, but is still accountable for the funding decisions that were made (and oversaw the people and process that made those decisions on the organisations behalf).

replies(2): >>roryko+Ne >>rjzzle+wG
◧◩
4. andi99+ye[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 10:31:31
>>stef25+49
Just take your excel sheet of funded project, filter by country then filter by city....
replies(1): >>cptski+6z
◧◩◪
5. roryko+Ne[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 10:36:40
>>Closi+sc
Absolutely spot on. Who on Earth would downvote this?
replies(2): >>atatat+dn >>myfavo+uo
6. throwa+xj[view] [source] 2021-06-04 11:39:01
>>kelnos+(OP)
Or maybe he just knew enough about his field to know that this theory is lala land and catnip for conspiracy nutheads.
replies(1): >>myfavo+xn
◧◩◪◨
7. atatat+dn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 12:14:09
>>roryko+Ne
Those who think it's acceptable to fund government very well, and then not hold them responsible for their choices.
◧◩
8. myfavo+xn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 12:16:38
>>throwa+xj
"knew"?

That seems to be the wrong word.

9. elcome+In[view] [source] 2021-06-04 12:17:59
>>kelnos+(OP)
Does it really matter though ? The fist thing I would do is find how to keep people from my country safe, not worry about where did my funding go (especially since the lab's funding has absolutely nothing to do with how we can find a cure or a vaccine).
replies(2): >>tim333+Mw >>bluGil+Px
◧◩◪◨
10. myfavo+uo[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 12:24:07
>>roryko+Ne
Those who look at politics as sport and are mostly concerned that their team has lost this round.
◧◩
11. tim333+Mw[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:31:45
>>elcome+In
It matters for stopping this happening again.
replies(1): >>ethbr0+Hz
◧◩
12. bluGil+Px[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:38:46
>>elcome+In
Yes, because you need to keep up the appearance of neutrality. If there is a conflict of interest, then you need to be careful to ensure that everyone knows you are ensuring those conflicts don't happen. That means you need to know and admit a lot of things that don't happen.

My company wants to know if my brother in law works for a competitor. It won't change my job, but they will be careful to ensure that I don't work on things that it would matter if I let something slip over dinner.

replies(1): >>jjeaff+QO2
◧◩◪
13. cptski+6z[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:46:59
>>andi99+ye
This amuses me because some people are going to incredulously think "you would never keep such important information in excel" and others are going to skeptically say "there's no way they've managed to consolidate that down to just one excel file".
replies(2): >>marcos+7D >>andi99+YU
◧◩◪
14. ethbr0+Hz[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:51:09
>>tim333+Mw
"This" is life and evolution.

Regardless of whether this was a lab escape or not, there's a 100% chance of a pandemic virus happening again.

replies(3): >>tim333+u91 >>gwely+5l1 >>presid+VF1
◧◩◪◨
15. marcos+7D[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 14:12:49
>>cptski+6z
I'm on the team thinking that there is no chance they got the city name correct and searchable on those Excel files.
replies(3): >>splith+RO >>cptski+o41 >>cecilp+V51
◧◩◪
16. rjzzle+wG[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 14:33:19
>>Closi+sc
Is this a different grant than what I'm thinking of? The institution that got the grant is a global non-profit(I think, and run by americans afair). They actually appealed this and said how damaging this is because they've had a long term working relationship with various labs across the globe relating to virus research. They've been on This Week on Virology many times on a variety of different subjects. Is the funding in question here different from that? Rand Paul makes it sound like the money went directly to China, which isn't the case.
17. base69+cO[view] [source] 2021-06-04 15:21:08
>>kelnos+(OP)
There are many emails stating Fauci did know and people that worked for him panicking. Worried that it would be discovered and their research would get canned.
◧◩◪◨⬒
18. splith+RO[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 15:24:32
>>marcos+7D
Or the person searching it ctrl+f’d a typo. Or a Chinese intern who helped compile the spreadsheet deleted that row on “accident”.

People are too quick to notice conflicts of interest. Everyone of us lives a life filled with such conflicts, yet we manage somehow to rise above, for the most part. Fauci seems like a nice guy to me.

19. boring+sR[view] [source] 2021-06-04 15:37:12
>>kelnos+(OP)
I think the first thing you would probably do is try and protect the population as best as possible instead of trying to find your tracks. As an organization that large why do you think Fauci would even know suspect that there is any funding connection.

Hindsight is wonderfully clear.

Maybe you should be in charge since you are so clearsighted and clearly so wise.

◧◩◪◨
20. andi99+YU[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 15:55:41
>>cptski+6z
I am in the camp believing that there are actually at least 2 full time positions just for compiling/maintaining these excel files.
replies(1): >>cptski+051
◧◩◪◨⬒
21. cptski+o41[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 16:41:10
>>marcos+7D
I inherited a application for grants tracking database last year and the grants themselves do not have a location. There are persons and institutions associated with each Application/Grant, and each of those has a location.

Interestingly, the application is designed for a very specific workflow, audit and review as part of the intake, but has no facilities for auditing after the fact. The data and relationships exist and there is a wealth of information in the database including known conflicts of interest but there's no easy way to query or browse this data from the application unless you're reviewing a specific grant or application.

For example:

The application doesn't allow you to search for persons by location and doesn't show you grants associated with persons. Rather you can only see persons associated with grants.

You can search for institution by address but again, it doesn't show you grants associated with an institution.

These interfaces were designed to just update Persons or Institutions when changes occur. They weren't intended as a way to back into a Grant or Application.

◧◩◪◨⬒
22. cptski+051[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 16:44:28
>>andi99+YU
In our org there's an entire team in the Research department dedicated to maintaining grants/applications and they rely on staff in IT and Finance for continuous support. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say it's at least 15 people.
◧◩◪◨⬒
23. cecilp+V51[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 16:47:42
>>marcos+7D
They did filter, but the details for that lab showed the country as "Wuhan" and the city as "Chona".
◧◩
24. weaksa+y81[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 16:58:38
>>stef25+49
to expand on just how small comparatively that number is... 100,000 seconds is a little over 1 day worth of seconds... 5 billion seconds is a little bit over 158 years of seconds.
replies(1): >>Closi+Q23
◧◩◪◨
25. tim333+u91[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 17:02:12
>>ethbr0+Hz
Yeah but you can mitigate.
replies(1): >>Throwa+If1
◧◩◪◨⬒
26. Throwa+If1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 17:27:29
>>tim333+u91
And it makes a big difference to the world if there is a pandemic of 2018 flu and COVID-19 intensity every century or more often. Wikipedians found a gain of function experiment from 2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_of_function_research, but it became a big issue in science policy in 2011 when two groups used serial passage of H5N1 avian influenza in ferrets (a favorite animal model for respiratory diseases) to get it to transmit between them by respiratory droplets. This got a lot of people very concerned, including myself at the time, especially since one or both of the groups did this with no more than BSL-2 level protection against a leak.

So if this COVID-19 origin hypothesis is true and it took only 8 to 19 years for a lab leak of a gain of function experiment to cause the worst pandemic in a century, we ought to be very interested in making sure this happens a lot less often. Ideally not at all, but I see no way to impose a world wide ban on this type of research.

replies(1): >>ethbr0+Ts1
◧◩◪◨
27. gwely+5l1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 17:50:37
>>ethbr0+Hz
Regardless of whether it was homicide or not, there's a 100% chance of a person dying at some point in their life.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
28. ethbr0+Ts1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 18:19:14
>>Throwa+If1
Until computational biology (including at the systemic macro level) becomes a viable alternative, GoF is one of our best tools to prevent nature from killing us.

That this should be done under the strictest protocols is obvious (and internationally-monitored, no less).

But pretending that dice aren't continually rolling in nature and hoping for the best seems shortsighted.

replies(1): >>Throwa+xE1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
29. Throwa+xE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 19:06:40
>>ethbr0+Ts1
Please name a single consequential advance in science relevant to protecting people that's come out of the last 8 years of heavy duty gain of function research starting with bird flu and ferrets in 2011.
replies(1): >>ethbr0+xW1
◧◩◪◨
30. presid+VF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 19:13:01
>>ethbr0+Hz
Unless we forget how to make mRNA vaccines, we're likely to avoid pandemics forever. These vaccines are going to fix everything.
replies(1): >>Throwa+jK1
◧◩◪◨⬒
31. Throwa+jK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 19:32:58
>>presid+VF1
mRNA vaccine technology is just a platform for presenting antigens to the immune system, the fastest one to make vaccine candidates by far, literally over a weekend for Moderna after the first SARS-CoV-2 sequences were published by Chinese researchers. It also has many advantages in simplicity.

That doesn't mean we'll be able to provide safe vaccines for sufficiently novel pathogens, behind Moderna's candidate was a decade and a half of research into making safe vaccines for SARS type coronaviruses, with researchers at the NIH finding one solution in 2017 for the antibody-dependent enhancement issue that had been plaguing such attempts starting with SARS and inactivated whole virus vaccines.

A fast pandemic can also get a long distance before you can ramp up production and vaccinate 8 billion people, with vaccines that so far need freezing for shipping, and medical grade refrigeration afterwords until used. Plus you need to make at least 8 billion syringes and needles and so on.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
32. ethbr0+xW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 20:41:27
>>Throwa+xE1
Considering it was a scientific ethical live wire from 2011 to 2014, and banned in the US from 2014 to 2017, that's a bit of a tall order.

I would point out that the some primary points against GOF utility in the 2014 survey report weigh very differently now: (1) lack of viral genetic surveillance at national levels, (2) inability to quickly generate novel vaccines, (3) inability to distribute vaccines worldwide.

replies(1): >>Throwa+D22
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
33. Throwa+D22[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 21:21:18
>>ethbr0+xW1
There's quite a bit less to the US funding moratorium than generally recognized. It only covered the flu, SARS and MERS, and of the 21 studies in progress, 10 were given exemptions: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/19/health/lethal-viruses-nih...

Whatever chilling effect it had, tall order at this stage of this general program of research or not, it's high time its advocates including yourself point to tangible progress of one sort or another, for we now can reasonably assess the risk side of the risk benefit trade off.

See this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398081 on why the advancements in vaccines don't even begin to cover the risks, or note as of now how long it looks it'll be before the Third World gets vaccinated against as much as is humanly possible, no sooner than sometime in 2022. Consider the possibility of a sufficiently good escape variant requiring another dose or two.

Consider how little the the whole world can afford the expense of a pandemic, and the Third World in particular, including viral surveillance of any sort, "molecular" (PRC based) tests or sequencing samples. And this time they're lucky, COVID-19 mortality risks are highly weighted with age, something that hits the young harder will hit them a lot harder.

Consider how many possible, probable, or proven lab escapes will it take before the world's governments clamp down on a lot more than gain of function research.

Yes, nature wants to kill us, although your itemized points also address that issue. It's just not very good at it, and almost all of that was before the germ theory of disease was accepted in the end of the 19th Century.

◧◩◪
34. jjeaff+QO2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-05 04:33:27
>>bluGil+Px
But what is it really in conflict with?

The only true conflict would be Fauci's opinion on whether the virus was a lab leak. Which really only matters for political reasons.

That conflict would have no bearing on how to handle the covid pandemic.

replies(1): >>bluGil+QV7
◧◩◪
35. Closi+Q23[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-05 07:41:57
>>weaksa+y81
This isnt a good political argument for Fauci though, because the next question from a reporter would be something like:

> “So you are saying that the organisation you lead helped fund a lab that caused a pandemic, but that funding was without your oversight because you thought it wasn’t important/big enough for you to look at? Are you going to resign?”

Note, I don’t believe the above is a fair question, but Fauci has to be careful to not set himself up for a gotcha.

replies(1): >>Throwa+k63
◧◩◪◨
36. Throwa+k63[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-05 08:32:13
>>Closi+Q23
Given the extreme danger of gain of function experiments, whatever their claimed benefits, while Fauci per his early February FIOA found email(s) wasn't aware his NIH institute was funding at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, it could be argued he should have arranged to be in the loop for all of such grants and was doing his best to make sure they were done as safely as possible.

That's not to say it would have made any difference, unless per the article per the Bat Woman "The coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories," "our" includes all the WIV's coronavirus research—it's a fair size outfit with a number of labs and there's no reason to assume she was the Principle Investigator for all of its coronavirus research—and he or a direct report could have insisted the funded research would be done at the BSL-4 lab or maybe one of the BSL-3 labs. This assume the gain of function research was being done at a lower level, which starting with the 2011 bird flu work in the West has been too often true, one or both of those labs were BSL-2, one of the reasons it was controversial and so alarming to a lot of people watching this including myself.

But it turned out without his knowledge gain of function research there was being funded by his institute through the EcoHealth Alliance, and in another email he's thanked by it's leader Peter Daszak for helping to push the zoonotic transfer explanation, which the latter was or had arranged through a group letter to The Lancet to be the only acceptable narrative until around now.

It would also have been good if someone had done a gut check on the EcoHealth Alliance's MO, which as described by a Rutgers' biological chemistry professor was "looking for a gas leak with a lighted match" by as the author of the Vanity Fair article as "bringing samples from a remote area to an urban one, then sequencing and growing viruses and attempting to genetically modify them to make them more virulent."

Again, nothing unique to the Alliance or China, the US is in the process of moving the research on animal pathogens done at Plumb Island, New York to college town Manhattan, Kansas. Which I'm sure is a much more pleasant place to work at, but just happened to be in the heartland of American animal agriculture. Someday one or more Congressmen who fought to bring home the bacon may be called to account for this, to the extent that ever happens.

◧◩◪◨
37. bluGil+QV7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-07 12:41:51
>>jjeaff+QO2
It does though. If it is a lab leak Fauci has to be fired for political reasons given that he made the mistake of funding the lab. Therefore he has incentive to hide evidence if it was.

We don't know that it was a lab leak or natural; and probably never will. There is the possibility the if it was a lab leak Fauci used his position to hide that evidence to protect himself.

Because of the above Fauci should have disclosed his potential conflict of interest. That way the rest of us can consider his actions to ensure we are more likely to catch him abusing his position.

The above is a normal thing that happens all the time. I'm accusing him of doing wrong by not disclosing this over a year ago. Do not expand that to accusing him of actually doing anything else wrong in handling the pandemic.

[go to top]