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1. PaulDa+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:03:13
That's not how I remember the narrative.

It was split in two.

1. Calling it "the china virus", as the former president was wont to do, was labelled racist/bigoted/nationalistic by those who did not simply agree with anything he said.

2. The claim that it originated in the Wuhan lab was viewed as unlikely, and there was (is) an alternative biological origin story which at the time seemed credible and more likely.

replies(5): >>genera+I >>DudeIn+R >>lawnch+01 >>actuat+K3 >>swader+75
2. genera+I[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:09:59
>>PaulDa+(OP)
That's not really how it happened. Remember 'Hug a Chinese person day', over in Italy?

https://in.news.yahoo.com/italy-launched-hug-chinese-campaig...

replies(1): >>PaulDa+Y1
3. DudeIn+R[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:11:42
>>PaulDa+(OP)
Lol. A lab near the wet market, who studies bats and viruses. And people ignore the obvious because orange bad man said it.
replies(1): >>abraae+U1
4. lawnch+01[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:13:49
>>PaulDa+(OP)
Except it never seemed more credible. People were assigned their opinion that it was more credible, and accepted it uncritically. It was frankly ridiculous if you had the information about the WIV that was being discussed wherever Peter Daszak wasn’t trying to cover his own ass and ruin others careers.
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5. abraae+U1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:23:24
>>DudeIn+R
When someone demonstrably lies constantly, it's not unreasonable to assume that the truth is most likely the opposite of what they say.
replies(2): >>jkhdig+X2 >>DudeIn+n4
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6. PaulDa+Y1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:23:40
>>genera+I
How does that conflict in any way with what I wrote?
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7. jkhdig+X2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:31:29
>>abraae+U1
No, the reasonable response is to completely ignore what they say, because otherwise you are still being manipulated by the liar.
replies(1): >>mindsl+Ih
8. actuat+K3[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:40:22
>>PaulDa+(OP)
> Calling it "the china virus", as the former president was wont to do, was labelled racist/bigoted/nationalistic

While the racist violence that happened was deplorable, it is entirely amusing to me that we are fine with calling it UK/Brazil/South African/Indian variant but not call it the China virus/flu.

The same publications like Guardian which did not use the term China virus/flu because it was considered racist had no problem in using Brazil/Indian variant as the names of the variant. They are still doing it even after WHO came up with different non country based names for each variants.

> The claim that it originated in the Wuhan lab was viewed as unlikely, and there was (is) an alternative biological origin story which at the time seemed credible and more likely

Wuhan lab leak being shot down so easily was the thing I found non convincing and the fact that so many journalists didn't cover it was surprising. While we might be able to ascertain that the virus is natural or man made easily, but a natural virus leaking out would seem high on the probability list to me as there is conveniently a lab at the same place where the outbreak first happened; and it was doing research on the same thing.

replies(4): >>tricer+W3 >>PaulDa+56 >>dillon+oo >>Gnarly+lF
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9. tricer+W3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:41:42
>>actuat+K3
> we are fine with calling it UK/Brazil/South African/Indian variant

Not anymore. They're getting Greek letter designations now.

replies(2): >>actuat+B4 >>wearyw+I4
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10. DudeIn+n4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:45:06
>>abraae+U1
So instead of looking at the facts, and then taking others opinion, you completely disregard the facts because the opinion comes from a liar?
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11. actuat+B4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:47:06
>>tricer+W3
Tell it to our politically correct liberal friends at Guardian, they are still using the country name. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/03/india-covid-va...
replies(2): >>tricer+Z4 >>Haemm0+pk
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12. wearyw+I4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:47:52
>>tricer+W3
It was fine for months, until it became rather popular to point out this glaring contradiction.
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13. tricer+Z4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:50:47
>>actuat+B4
Maybe not every copy editor there has gotten the news?[1]

1. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/01/covid-19-varia...

replies(1): >>actuat+n6
14. swader+75[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:52:02
>>PaulDa+(OP)
It's been practice for centuries to initially name it after where it was first originated. Spanish flu ring a bell? But yeah Trump's racist for saying China flu.
replies(4): >>PaulDa+f6 >>basilg+C6 >>cordel+d7 >>sellym+yd
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15. PaulDa+56[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:00:18
>>actuat+K3
Trump's use of the term "the China virus" was clearly, absolutely, unambiguously to blame China for the virus/pandemic.

By the time the variants started to emerge, the virus' biological structure and mechanism was sufficiently well understood that seeking to blame any particular locale for the emergence of a variant was seen to be pointless.

About pointless as blaming China for the virus itself appeared to be at the time, even if that may no longer be the case.

replies(1): >>actuat+V6
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16. PaulDa+f6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:01:31
>>swader+75
Uh, it didn't originate in Spain. From Wikipedia:

> "The pandemic is conventionally marked as having begun on 4 March 1918 with the recording of the case of Albert Gitchell, an army cook at Camp Funston in Kansas, United States"

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17. actuat+n6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:02:08
>>tricer+Z4
The article content mentions the new name Delta, unlike the headline so I am guessing the copy editor is aware. Anyway, I guess my view is not as charitable as you as it is coloured by their coverage of events in the past.
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18. basilg+C6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:04:12
>>swader+75
The first observations of illness and mortality of the Spanish Flu were actually in the US. The origin of the name of the Spanish Flu is due to it being reported in the news most freely and widely in Spain as many other nations were limiting reporting due to being embroiled in WWI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

replies(1): >>swader+xa
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19. actuat+V6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:08:49
>>PaulDa+56
I agree that Trump's use was to definitely please his supporter base and blame China. But except for some racist bigots, I really doubt calling it the China virus/flu means that someone is trying to blame Chinese people for it, just like you are arguing for variants.

My point was, the same concerns people had for not using the country name on virus were applicable for variants too. If we chose one standard for the virus, we should have kept the same for variants too, after all there are some variants which are considered more dangerous than the others.

replies(1): >>PaulDa+W7
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20. cordel+d7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:10:44
>>swader+75
The Spanish flu didn't originate in Spain -- its origins are disputed, but it was first observed in the US.

I'm surprised you didn't get this memo by now, but Spain gained that ignominy only by being the sole country to not apply censorship regarding the topic at the time ("Land of the Free" included).

It's utter nonsensical bullshit like this that made us collectively move away from naming diseases after countries.

replies(1): >>swader+Ka
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21. PaulDa+W7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:17:22
>>actuat+V6
You don't see a difference between:

"the virus that killed at least 3.5M people worldwide came from <COUNTRY>"

and

"as the pandemic spread globally, and as expected for almost any virus and for coronaviruses in particular, variants of the virus emerged in <COUNTRY A>, <COUNTRY B> and <COUNTRY C>"

?

replies(2): >>actuat+w8 >>ttt0+4A
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22. actuat+w8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:22:14
>>PaulDa+W7
Well, both the statements are worded way differently. The same variant thing can be worded as

"Covid-19 variant wreaking havoc and causing severe hospitalisations and has killed 3.5M people came from #{COUNTRY_A}"

The same carefully worded statement like yours for the variant one can also be used for the first outbreak country's name. It is the usage that is the issue not the term itself. My point still is, if someone saw downfalls of using the country name in one situation, they should have seen it in the other as well. At least WHO did, that's why they came up with the new names.

replies(2): >>PaulDa+L9 >>chrisc+Kc
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23. PaulDa+L9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:34:31
>>actuat+w8
the history of any viral pandemic is going to inevitably see variants showing up. their emergence says nothing at all about the places where that happens.

the origin of the pandemic was made a central point of contention by trump. it appeared very important to him, based on his own language, that we identify china as the place where the virus first infected people, and for a while, as the place where authorities had failed to control its spread.

while i see downfalls in terms like "the india variant", they seem small because they generally do not have connotations of blame. by contrast "the chinus virus" term was entirely about blame (and also about deflection from the failure to manage the pandemic effectively).

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24. swader+xa[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:43:30
>>basilg+C6
I know this to be the case but it was still first thought to have originated in Spain.
replies(1): >>PaulDa+zb
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25. swader+Ka[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:44:53
>>cordel+d7
We haven't moved away from that until about yesterday. UK variant, SA variant, Brazil variant. These were in the news you know?
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26. PaulDa+zb[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:53:06
>>swader+xa
The Wikipedia page cites no theory that places the origin in Spain. It cites theories of origin for the US, France, China and Europe in general.
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27. chrisc+Kc[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 03:06:01
>>actuat+w8
That's like saying "The child was murdered by a Black man," vs "The child was murdered by a man wearing a hoodie and a scar on his left cheek." Both sentences use details that could be true accurate descriptions, but choosing which descriptors to use allow you to control the opinions of the reader and the associations to the bad thing (murder) with some traits. It gives the writer a powerful propagandistic tool. The question is what descriptors are important enough to be associated with the bad thing? Could any man, or even person, have murdered a child? Could the virus have come from anywhere? If so, then shaping opinions by associating with the trait of "Black man" or "China" is counterproductive.

Better descriptors could be: "Covid-19 ... wreaking havoc... came from laboratory with poor hygiene practices and safety measures."

"Child was murdered by insane person."

These titles stick to the point rather than trying to bias public opinion, and associate the bad thing with what the actual underlying cause was.

replies(1): >>alenti+Pj
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28. sellym+yd[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 03:14:00
>>swader+75
> It's been practice for centuries to initially name it after where it was first originated.

It was practice. Past tense. The WHO changed that practice in 2015 [1]. In fact they explicitly list Spanish Flu as an example of why that practice was flawed.

"Terms that should be avoided in disease names include geographic locations (e.g. Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, Spanish Flu, Rift Valley fever), people’s names (e.g. Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, Chagas disease), species of animal or food (e.g. swine flu, bird flu, monkey pox), cultural, population, industry or occupational references (e.g. legionnaires), and terms that incite undue fear (e.g. unknown, fatal, epidemic)."

[1]: https://www.who.int/news/item/08-05-2015-who-issues-best-pra...

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29. mindsl+Ih[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 04:01:19
>>jkhdig+X2
It's easy to ignore the liar themselves, but it's impossible to ignore repetitions of the liar's message. The only possibility is to ignore any message matching the liar's, regardless of provenance. This completely screws up rational discourse.

And yes, such manipulation and corruption of debate is the general problem with liars being awarded leadership positions.

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30. alenti+Pj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 04:26:33
>>chrisc+Kc
> That's like saying "The child was murdered by a Black man," vs "The child was murdered by a man wearing a hoodie and a scar on his left cheek."

Why do you think the latter is more "to the point" than the former?

replies(1): >>chrisc+8o
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31. Haemm0+pk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 04:32:41
>>actuat+B4
Instead of "Indian variant/mutation" papers now use "Delta variant, which originated in India" which hardly makes a difference in my eyes.
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32. chrisc+8o[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 05:09:16
>>alenti+Pj
That wasn't meant to be an example of a more on-point variant. It was meant as an example of a different set of potentially arbitrary details to focus on that changes the perceptions and associations. It works to associate hoodies, scars, and left cheeks with murderers.
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33. dillon+oo[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 05:13:30
>>actuat+K3
It's not the name.

It's the WAY Trump et al said it + their political motivations & bias. Context is very important.

"ChiNe A", almost the verbal version of slanting your eyes with your fingers.

And the more obvious 'kung flu.'

For what it's worth I've read that there has been attempts to reframe virus names from using state names as to not cast blame (though 'blame' is muddled in this case if it was leaked or worse GOF->leak).

"Spanish Flu" for instance likely didn't even originate in Spain

Fair point on the media, since variants do have actual scientific names. But I don't think the context there is the same. But they should be using consistent scientific names imho we knew H1N1 we can do that again.

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34. ttt0+4A[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 07:42:56
>>PaulDa+W7
No, not really. Both are just a statement of fact.
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35. Gnarly+lF[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 09:01:51
>>actuat+K3
> While the racist violence that happened was deplorable, it is entirely amusing to me that we are fine with calling it UK/Brazil/South African/Indian variant but not call it the China virus/flu.

Why is this amusing? In N.A. there is currently (and pre-dating Covid-19) substantive differences in xenophobic response to China/Russia vs. the other countries mentioned. The former are the go to political boogiemen whereas the latter are either allies or patronizingly viewed.

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