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[parent] [thread] 27 comments
1. tchall+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-03-30 20:30:47
> It's similar to when Apple defended it's 30% store cut by claiming it's an "industry standard"... specifically, an industry standard that Apple established.

Apple established a standard for the Apple app store. There was a lot of complaint about "Apple Tax" and Apple merely pointed out that it wasn't a "Apple Tax". Sure, Apple started it but others which are not even connected to the Apple ecosystem simply followed. They could have not decided to but they did (Re:Table 1) [0]. Microsoft, Samsung, Google and Amazon all have the same 30% tax. Heck, even commission rates for Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo have the same rate (Re : Table 2). I am sure Apple is not forcing them to have those rates.

Somehow, this conversation turns into an "Apple" vs rest conversation. There's no conversation had upon the charges on a digital distribution store. I'd say - let's have that conversation and come up with a number. Currently, the number is decided in a "free market". I would be open to come up to an alternate number. Most arguments against the 30% is that it is too high. Well, every penny that goes out from the developer's pocket is too high. The cost of an iPhone might be too high. Something, being too high is not an argument to not have that rate.

[0] https://www.analysisgroup.com/globalassets/insights/publishi...

replies(4): >>issame+C2 >>clairi+43 >>heavys+ia >>flemha+Gf
2. issame+C2[view] [source] 2021-03-30 20:44:43
>>tchall+(OP)
I have an android phone and there is one clear difference: I can go elsewhere to get apps other than the official channel. For Microsoft I can go as far as installing a whole different OS on the device. You can do neither with iPhones. Sure, you can buy a different phone but it isn't as simple as that
3. clairi+43[view] [source] 2021-03-30 20:46:24
>>tchall+(OP)
this is a classic example of how companies collude without direct communication. it's a type of game theoretic outcome that's actually taught in business school - how to read your competitor's intentions from public information (like pricing intentions) and legally act and counter-communicate publicly your own intentions to not compete (in many cases by not lowering price).

this can practically only happen in oligarchic markets (those controlled by a few large players) who can safely assume a smaller competitor won't undercut them. unfortunately, most major markets in the US are oligarchic, if not downright monopolized (e.g., cellular service).

replies(2): >>tchall+L4 >>rurp+05
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4. tchall+L4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 20:53:37
>>clairi+43
> this is a classic example of how companies collude without direct communication.

In that case, let's have that conversation as a society and as a government. "Are companies listed in Table 1 and 2 in collusion as defined by current law?".

In most of the Apple 30% conversations, the conversations seem to be about an instance (Apple) instead of an object (Digital Store Tax, Collusion etc). Lets set the frame and be clear about the conversation we want to have regardless of the business we talk. We can use Apple, Microsoft et al as examples to make the point. We shouldn't replace them with the overarching discussion.

replies(1): >>clairi+K9
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5. rurp+05[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 20:55:16
>>clairi+43
This is a great comment. It drives me crazy how often people take concepts that apply to an idealized free market and apply them to an area that's controlled by a small number of entrenched behemoths. Very little of the tech industry these days operates like an Econ 101 free marketplace.
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6. clairi+K9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 21:16:07
>>tchall+L4
as i understand it, by not communicating directly, companies avoid the most damning potential evidence that they are colluding. it's theoretically possible to still determine that their behavior is collusive, but quite difficult in practice.

i personally think anti-trust/anti-monopoly regulations should be tightened by an order of magnitude or so. any market that exhibits such extended, obviously inflated profit margins needs to be sliced up more finely. any market participant with more than ~10% market share should be scrutinized closely. piercing the corporate veil should be the norm with any anticompetitive infraction (as well as embezzlement, insider trading, and other such executive crimes).

in short, make markets fair (not just 'free').

and in turn, that should allocate capital more efficiently throughout the economy, rather than letting it accumulate inefficiently in fewer and fewer hands.

replies(2): >>kuratk+Ad >>tchall+mg
7. heavys+ia[view] [source] 2021-03-30 21:18:21
>>tchall+(OP)
> There's no conversation had upon the charges on a digital distribution store. I'd say - let's have that conversation and come up with a number. Currently, the number is decided in a "free market".

There is no competition in the mobile app distribution market. Apple and Google have a duopoly on mobile app distribution, and they behave like a cartel when it comes to price fixing.

For over a decade now, consumers and developers could have benefited from real competition in the mobile app distribution market. Real competition between companies means that consumers can benefit from increased efficiencies and reductions in cost when it comes to distributing mobile apps.

Instead, Apple and Google have kept a stranglehold on the mobile app distribution market, and it took over a decade and the threat of regulation before Apple chose to lower costs to developers somewhat.

How can anyone know what prices are "industry standard" or "too high" when it comes to mobile app distribution if there is no real competition in that market, just a cartel consisting of two trillion dollar companies controlling mobile app distribution for nearly 13 years?

replies(1): >>tchall+1h
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8. kuratk+Ad[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 21:38:13
>>clairi+K9
"Fair" and "free" are almost opposite values in regards to markets, what you want is not "free", you want regulation. Fairness means you got to oppress a party in favor of another party.
replies(3): >>tchall+Mg >>clairi+ci >>Clumsy+3F
9. flemha+Gf[view] [source] 2021-03-30 21:49:09
>>tchall+(OP)
It even polluted into other markets, like Wolt.com taking a 30% (!!) cut of food delivered using their platform. On top of the actual delivery charges.

I remember thinking that Just-Eat.com were criminals for taking 10%.

Hungry.dk takes 1-2%.

replies(1): >>Jommi+kj
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10. tchall+mg[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 21:53:17
>>clairi+K9
> in short, make markets fair (not just 'free').

I'm all for it. What's your concrete proposal to change in the current law for digital store distribution "tax"?

replies(1): >>clairi+gK
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11. tchall+Mg[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 21:55:33
>>kuratk+Ad
You are hitting the nail on the head. Most times, people are looking for utopian solutions. In a large market where people have different incentives, non-dominating solutions do not exist. There are options and implications. We get to choose from what we have (with implications) not some ideal situation we have dreamt in our mind. Currently, everyone wants to have their cake, eat it and the cherry on the top. Later even complain about the cherry not being sweet.
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12. tchall+1h[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 21:57:19
>>heavys+ia
I agree - there's no competition. What's your solution to change in the law that will create competition?
replies(1): >>zamada+vv
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13. clairi+ci[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 22:05:48
>>kuratk+Ad
a fair market is one that is devoid of coercive influence by any market participant, almost diametrically opposed to oppressiveness. whereas in a "free" market, oppression is the expected steady-state, because it inherently invites manipulation to produce advantage, as with any game (in the academic sense) without rules. try playing basketball without rules and see what happens.
replies(1): >>kuratk+9l
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14. Jommi+kj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 22:13:34
>>flemha+Gf
You're comparing apples and oranges.

You're most likely not being fair with what services these platforms provide, or how they structure their fees.

Wolt and other companies like UberEats or Postmates are food discovery, delivery and PoS platforms (and more). They don't operate on any single commission model.

(Ofc one could argue this pricing complexity is intentional so that comparing is more difficult)

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15. kuratk+9l[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 22:28:09
>>clairi+ci
It seems you are making up words. "Fair market" doesn't even seem to be a thing - not surprised really.
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16. zamada+vv[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-30 23:53:03
>>tchall+1h
At minimum if you operate an app store on your own platform that takes a cut the platform should allow alternative 3rd party stores to be used. Android/Windows/web/MacOS are already there on that software front. iOS/Consoles/SmartTVs and many others are not. It's probably why you hear about the Apple App Store 30% but not the Play/Microsoft Store 30% - those aren't the only options to distribute an app on those platforms. Users are definitely steered and incentivized to use them but not forced.

That in itself isn't a fix all, for example the Amazon app store for Android based devices still takes a 30% cut at the moment, but it opens the floodgates to stores like this that could start to create natural competition. And even if not at least you have the choice to try not to do that, look at Fortnite. Not for the court case but because they took a 0% cut on Android by distributing the app via their own store when they got kicked off due to that battle. Obviously not an option for everyone but you can still load the app on Android devices and Epic Games Store actually only takes a 12% cut as it's trying to compete. Even if none of this ends up mattering - at least one can load what they want on their devices.

.

At the more extreme end there is always antitrust action like the oft cited idea of splitting the likes of Apple or so on into "Apple Hardware" and "Apple Software" which would definitely blow away some anti-competition tendencies (How many use ios+safari+apple-hardware because that's what they would pick vs that's the only option to get any of the above? Probably less than 100%...) but at the same time are probably a bit extreme when we have tried tamer things like the above before.

replies(1): >>tchall+Aw
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17. tchall+Aw[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 00:06:01
>>zamada+vv
> At minimum if you operate an app store on your own platform that takes a cut the platform should allow alternative 3rd party stores to be used.

So basically, Microsoft Windows should have an Apple app store and Android should have an Apple app store?

replies(1): >>zamada+6C
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18. zamada+6C[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 01:01:18
>>tchall+Aw
Not quite, just that they should _allow_ such app stores if the app store so wanted to go on the platform.

Microsoft Windows and Android already allow this today which I think is why you hear about Apple's App store so much - it does not allow this. E.g. on Windows you can install iTunes and listen to Apple Music without Apple having to use Microsoft's app store or pay a cut of the subscription to Microsoft. The same is true on Android, Apple does not need to go through Google Play - it's possible to load the APK without it. That being said Apple Music still has the option of listing in the native stores (which it is in both the Microsoft Store and Google Play) it's just not _forced_ to be the only way to get the app _forcing_ the 30% cut to be paid.

As a result you do see competition to the Microsoft Store on Windows and you do see competition to the Play store on Android. Each is still an option though but it's not without competition. On the Apple App store your option is "30% app store cut or get the fuck out, this user owns an iPhone so you can't sell to them direct now".

But there is no reason to force any particular stores to be available on a particular platform, simply making sure stores are allowed has seemed to enabled competition in every place that has tried it so far.

replies(1): >>yazadd+3k1
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19. Clumsy+3F[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 01:33:47
>>kuratk+Ad
This is "mah free market" perspective where 'freedom' is the law of the jungle.

They somehow think that this brand of 'freedom' without regulation will not decent into rule of the strongest and basically tyrany, just like it has every time in history.

They have not heard about standard oil market manipulation, railway monopolies, the Phoebus Cartel and others

They do not understand that regulation is what stands in the way of other people taking your freedoms.

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20. clairi+gK[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 02:27:47
>>tchall+mg
you don't necessarily need new laws, just executive will to allocate earnest resources (diverted from, say, useless programs like the tsa or military boondoggle projects) put toward robustly promoting competitive markets.

for instance, make platforms like apple allow other app stores equal footing on their platform. then they would have to compete on price and features to get the best apps to be on their app store rather than resting on their laurels of being the only viable option. apple already has lots of advantages, so they don't need monopoly power on top of that to be able to compete effectively.

replies(1): >>martim+EO
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21. martim+EO[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 03:23:11
>>clairi+gK
Yea you can force them to have multiple markets on the phone but that doesn’t mean that they won’t be colluding again. Apple and Google can have their stores on both iOS and Android and still keep 30%.

Also this would mean that you are killing off a feature to the end user (me in this case) where I actually like the walled garden as I don’t need to check and verify apps I download.

I understand where you are coming from but if I bought an iOS device (for my parents) I want them to not have a way to install other apps. For me that’s a feature. I don’t want there to be a way to enable anything that allows them to side load or use a different store. This is me as a consumer.

As a developer I see it like this: my (potential) customers decided to use Apple for a reason. I have to respect their decision. If that means I make 30% less than I can try and convince them to use Android and side load but I should respect their choice. Would I like the 30% off for myself - sure.

I think a big part of the discussion misses the reason ppl have chosen iOS and the arguments come from only one side.

If we can get to a position that makes sure that you keep you current state (gatekeeper + trust in iOS App Store + can’t get scammed with malware apps) but allows the option to distribute outside of that would be ideal but I’m too stupid to think of it :D

I just don’t want to kill off a feature I paid a huge amount of money (iOS devices for every close family member) to have and I feel that should be respected. :)

replies(1): >>clairi+PQ
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22. clairi+PQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 03:47:11
>>martim+EO
you'd still have the apple ios store so you wouldn't lose any of that walled garden if you prefer it.
replies(1): >>martim+AS
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23. martim+AS[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 04:09:08
>>clairi+PQ
Yea but if you have another store you kinda lose it. Anyone could get tricked to install/sideload an app or enable the other stores.

So in fact you’re be losing the walled experience

replies(1): >>clairi+UX
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24. clairi+UX[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 05:10:59
>>martim+AS
i wouldn't count out network effects so quickly, which apple has in spades, to keep people, especially non-technical folks, on their app store as a default (and usually only) option. that's incidentally how google became the default (and often only) search engine without having any substantive lock-in early on.
replies(1): >>martim+YZ
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25. martim+YZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 05:39:48
>>clairi+UX
Sure I agree with that completely. But firstly that wouldn’t solve the issue for developers as then the arguments will just shift that other app stores should come preinatalled and later will shift it again (developers will never be happy with any percentage but also the review process does cost money, in app transactions infra as well), and secondly it increases the attack surface for scams (just watching on YouTube how old ppl get scammed makes me a bit uneasy that my parents are getting close to that age). Thirdly I think Google search is a very good example. Do you remember back in the day all those installers that had toolbars and would change your default search engine? I just don’t want us to open the door to anything remotely like that.

Honestly I think if maybe allow sideloading is an a setting available only for the iCloud family organiser to enable that mitigate most of my use cases.

replies(1): >>clairi+co2
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26. yazadd+3k1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 09:24:58
>>zamada+6C
As an Apple customer, I will lose value from my purchase if iOS was required to have additional (non-Apple controlled) AppStores. This change cannot be made retroactively to my previous purchases.

The law (if it ever exists) should only apply to new iPhones and Apple should let users decide what they want.

Unlocking extra AppStores would likely also be more expensive than a locked in iPhone because of Apple’s ROI from the controlled AppStore. I don’t want to subsidize other people using a non-Apple controlled store when I know I wouldn’t.

replies(1): >>zamada+48h
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27. clairi+co2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 16:24:16
>>martim+YZ
along those lines, instead of being preinstalled, choosing app stores could be part of the setup process. so if you only wanted the apple app store, you’d just set it up that way. adding another app store would necessarily present more friction than that.
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28. zamada+48h[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-04-05 23:14:54
>>yazadd+3k1
I'm not sure what value you're supposed to be losing if different app sources were allowed? And yes the proposal was the option for a user to be able to use other app stores not that users had to use other app stores.

As far as the subsidization again I'm not sure I follow, you're paying the subsidization today and the option to continue paying subsidization isn't what's changing.

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