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[parent] [thread] 18 comments
1. tehjok+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:30:04
Pretty incredible how far the US media will go to deflect attention from how bad the US response to the pandemic was to China.

"Let me be clear: Labs in Wuhan might not have played any role in the origin of the pandemic. But a year later, no source has been found, and the world deserves a thorough, unbiased investigation of all plausible theories that is conducted without fear or favor."

Okay. So basically this author has no evidence other than the fact that it's very difficult, maybe impossible to identify the site of first transmission. I don't know what progress would look like, but maybe sampling animals in the wild to find a carrier with a genetic signature that looks like an early version?

This is just speculative nonsense to try to hype the government's pivot to China. That's why its in the opinion section, the worst part of the newspaper.

replies(4): >>varjag+y3 >>Vector+C3 >>saas_s+c5 >>bumbad+y8
2. varjag+y3[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:44:45
>>tehjok+(OP)
No, the evidence is there's a relevant viral research lab in the epicentre with known history of safety issues and no animal transmission link have been confirmed.
replies(2): >>tehjok+A5 >>ninken+Na
3. Vector+C3[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:45:03
>>tehjok+(OP)
Its very difficult maybe impossible because China is trying very hard to make it that way.
replies(1): >>tehjok+J4
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4. tehjok+J4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:49:31
>>Vector+C3
Maybe, but I think it's fairly obvious that this is naturally a hard problem (e.g. having teams of people sample potentially millions of animals in the field) unless you get lucky or catch it in the act.
replies(1): >>Vector+ow
5. saas_s+c5[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:50:46
>>tehjok+(OP)
Did you know officials sent a warning in 2018 about the Wuhan Institute of Virology warning that their experiments were dangerous and the facility was run poorly, risking a new Sars-like pandemic? https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52318539

Did you know the CCP arrested the first doctor sounding the alarm about COVID? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382

Did you know viruses have escaped from labs before? It is a known risk.

You can say the evidence is not conclusive and you would be right. But it's far from "speculative nonsense."

One wonders if you would be similarly skeptical of claims relating to COVID's cause being something much more speculative and vague... say, global anthropogenic climate change, for example. I'm sure you'd be pumping the brakes just as hard on any speculation to that effect, right? ;-)

replies(2): >>tehjok+F6 >>Diogen+vL1
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6. tehjok+A5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:52:28
>>varjag+y3
There's evidence that many things are possible. Conspiracies are possible, but they are primarily a diagnosis of exclusion OR if there is specific evidence pointing in that direction.

The US media has made an art out of turning speculation into exciting narratives that large fractions of the population believe that turned out to be completely fabricated but retain adherents for years or generations after.

replies(1): >>varjag+nb
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7. tehjok+F6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:56:48
>>saas_s+c5
"The Washington Post newspaper reported information obtained from diplomatic cables on 14 April. They show that, in 2018, US science diplomats were sent on repeated visits to a Chinese research facility.

Officials sent two warnings to Washington about the lab. The column says the officials were worried about safety and management weaknesses at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) and called for more help." ... "What kinds of security failures were the cables describing?

The short answer is we don't know from the information provided in the Washington Post. But, generally speaking, there are multiple ways that safety measures can be breached at labs dealing with biological agents.

According to Dr Lentzos, these include: "Who has access to the lab, the training and refresher-training of scientists and technicians, procedures for record-keeping, signage, inventory lists of pathogens, accident notification practices, emergency procedures.""

In other words, all the information is non-public and coming from the entirely unreliable US Intelligence services whose job is to lie and make the US government look good. If these reports had been published (meaning in public documents) prior to the pandemic OR there was an admission by the Chinese government, this would be far more credible.

8. bumbad+y8[view] [source] 2021-03-22 21:04:21
>>tehjok+(OP)
People are too naive when they talk about China.

For one people actually believe Chinese's numbers, something no Chinese national will ever do.

China is a totalitarian country, they have the monopoly of the press. That means official numbers are not real numbers because if you go against the official numbers you just dissapear. You can not compare numbers given in a free press country against numbers being given by a totalitarian country.

That happened for decades with Soviet Russia, while Lenin and Stalin made tens of millions of people die of starvation, their official numbers were fantastic. They even exported grain.

There is no evidence because China made impossible for scientists to study the origin of COVID for almost a year. They closed their laboratories and removed all possible evidence with bleach.

replies(2): >>8note+Ph >>tehjok+yj
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9. ninken+Na[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:13:17
>>varjag+y3
Epicenters of a disease like this (respiratory disease with asymptomatic transmission) are likely to be in an urban area, so it's not surprising it's in a large city.

In a typical city the size of Wuhan, what are the odds it has some sort of viral research lab? If this happened in (picking a city at random...) Chicago, you could work backwards, find a viral research lab in say, University of Illinois, and make the same claim. "No link to animal transmission has been found, and the original epicenter was known to have a viral research lab. QED."

replies(1): >>varjag+fc
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10. varjag+nb[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:14:53
>>tehjok+A5
It's not a conspiracy, but a not improbable covered up accident. I.e. something pretty normal in any authoritarian state.

I don't think anyone suggests the CCP unleashed the virus onto its own city on purpose.

replies(1): >>tehjok+Kh
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11. varjag+fc[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:18:54
>>ninken+Na
Well, we know for a fact that the outbreak started in Wuhan, not in Chicago. Had it happened in Chicago, am certain the university lab would be under suspicion.

And no, the vast majority of cities do not have viral research labs.

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12. tehjok+Kh[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:42:13
>>varjag+nb
You're alleging the CCP is covering up their role a global pandemic. That's a conspiracy as there is a group of powerful people hiding something from the public.

I believe in many conspiracy theories that have substantive evidence for them (e.g. the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was faked), so I don't dismiss the idea of a conspiracy as impossible, they happen every day. However, there is no substantive evidence presented here other than the mere possibility that someone might have done something bad.

replies(1): >>varjag+Mm
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13. 8note+Ph[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:42:28
>>bumbad+y8
As a result, I have no reason to believe that Wuhan is actually the first outbreak, making the existence of that lab irrelevant
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14. tehjok+yj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:49:36
>>bumbad+y8
It's amusing that you post this under a US propaganda piece trying to convince people based on zero evidence that China did something bad. The US press is just as propagandistic and vehemently denies it as large sections of the US population lose trust in it (so called "fake-news").

I think you are referring to an event in Ukraine where some of the peasantry burned crops, but some exports were still bound for the cities. In the Irish potato famine, the UK exported food from Ireland even as people starved to death. In the US, farmers burned crops and poured out milk in the great depression as people starved.

Juxtaposed, there is little reason to treat foreign governments as inherently worse than our own and much reason hold them to similar evidentiary standards. My hope is that the standard would be high for both domestic and foreign stories.

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15. varjag+Mm[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 22:04:07
>>tehjok+Kh
It's not a conspiracy in the sense of pre-meditated plan by a group of villains.

It can well be a cover-up, which is a daily life in places like China. In USSR, every technological, radiologic or biological disaster was covered up, surfacing only when it was impossible to conceal.

replies(1): >>tehjok+wt2
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16. Vector+ow[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 22:53:13
>>tehjok+J4
Naturally hard and then a giant government is doing everything in their power to stymie it at every turn. Regardless of the debate on if this is a logically or morally appropriate thing to do, but one can conclude they wouldn't be doing this if they didn't think there was some possibility of it.
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17. Diogen+vL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 10:31:29
>>saas_s+c5
They did not warn that the lab was dangerous or in any way poorly run. That's the spin that Josh Rogin has repeatedly tried to put on the diplomatic cables. The actual cables (written by diplomats, not experts) merely stated that a lab which had not yet opened did not yet have enough trained staff to operate at full capacity. The cables said that in order to ask the US government to continue its training program for staff at the lab. The cables actually complain that the Chinese government's safety regulations are too strict - not allowing the lab to work with Ebola.
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18. tehjok+wt2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 15:16:25
>>varjag+Mm
I urge you to google "cover-up" and "conspiracy" and see how often those words are used together.

Yes, governments tend to avoid releasing embarrassing info. Witness the way the US government failed to prepare for the virus and pretended everything would be fine and then only made changes when they couldn't possibly do anything else which probably is responsible for killing 500,000 people.

replies(1): >>varjag+QS2
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19. varjag+QS2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 17:25:12
>>tehjok+wt2
There is a reason these are two different words: they describe somewhat overlapping, but distinct concepts.

I'm not sure why you bring the American COVID response into this: its ineptitude was never even close to a secret, and the role of 45th administration in it is hardly disputed. If this is a kind of a "no u" response, well am not an American anyway.

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