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1. rayine+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-02-24 17:04:07
Racial inequality is not an "artificially inflated issue." Studies show that, despite reduction in de jure racism over the past 70 years, Black-white income gaps are large (with Black incomes being 19 percentile points below white incomes in the income distribution), and also persistent. Meanwhile, the incomes of other groups (Latinos, Asians) have or are in the process of converging with those of whites.

So there is a real, devilishly difficult problem here. But it's not going to be solved by telling people to "be less white." That's an insane non-solution to a real problem.

replies(3): >>ceilin+s2 >>inglor+m3 >>Solar1+ga1
2. ceilin+s2[view] [source] 2021-02-24 17:13:04
>>rayine+(OP)
The fact that inequality exists in no way indicates that there is a society-wide conspiracy of white supremacy. That other minorities have rising incomes should make it obvious that the issue is very complex.
replies(1): >>walked+l9
3. inglor+m3[view] [source] 2021-02-24 17:16:29
>>rayine+(OP)
There are fairly massive income gaps within white and black groups as well.

Nigerian Americans have on average 10 % higher incomes than whites.

EDIT: It is 5 per cent, not 10 per cent. I was mistaken. They have 10 % more than an average American household.

Czech Americans have on average 20 % higher incomes than generic whites.

Given that I am a Czech, are we silently running Czech supremacy in the U.S.?

replies(3): >>rayine+S3 >>alea_i+v5 >>tolbis+D6
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4. rayine+S3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:18:21
>>inglor+m3
Nigerian Americans are the most highly-educated demographic in the U.S., due at least in part to the filtering effect of immigration.
replies(1): >>alea_i+85
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5. alea_i+85[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:23:07
>>rayine+S3
So what, you're admitting it's not a race issue but an education issue?
replies(1): >>sangno+cc
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6. alea_i+v5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:24:55
>>inglor+m3
> Nigerian Americans have on average 10 % higher incomes than whites.

I'd love to know the source on that, thanks.

replies(1): >>inglor+U5
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7. inglor+U5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:26:12
>>alea_i+v5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...

It is not surprising. Immigrants from Nigeria are the best educated immigrant group and income correlates with education.

replies(1): >>alea_i+c6
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8. alea_i+c6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:27:30
>>inglor+U5
I agree with you, thanks for the source.
replies(1): >>inglor+G8
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9. tolbis+D6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:28:56
>>inglor+m3
I wonder why HN only focuses on the financial part. There are several complex ways in which racial injustice works. Nigerian Americans will still get racially profiled at the store and have a harder time with the police.
replies(1): >>inglor+X7
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10. inglor+X7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:33:55
>>tolbis+D6
I cannot vouch for that either way. My experience from Europe is that A LOT depends on your clothing and general demeanor.

An Indian dressed a in silk three piece suit and a Philippe Patek watch on his wrist will be treated with obsequious deference by the store personnel. A Roma guy dressed as stereotypical Roma will be suspected and followed. Their skin colors are identical.

At the end of the day, money talks.

replies(2): >>azinma+qj >>tolbis+ZL
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11. inglor+G8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:37:29
>>alea_i+c6
Glad to provide it. I am not sure why you are getting downvoted. Asking for a source is GOOD and Hacker News public should understand that.
replies(1): >>alea_i+8a
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12. walked+l9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:40:00
>>ceilin+s2
Indeed, a simple reading of almost anything by Thomas Sowell, especially Discrimination and Disparities, would go a long way to educate everyone that discrimination is not a meaningful factor in why we have disparities between groups.
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13. alea_i+8a[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:43:26
>>inglor+G8
I guess some people read my question as if I doubted while I just wanted the source which I didn't have.

C'est la vie :)

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14. sangno+cc[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 17:52:24
>>alea_i+85
That depends - are you willing to admit that the education issue is a race issue? Race, income and school quality are highly correlated in the US: poor neighborhood = poor education. The fact that immigrants (who were not poor in the old country - immigration is expensive) bypass low-quality education doesn't mean it's not a race issue, it just means they are not useful as a control group.

Ruby Bridges, the first black person to integrate in the south is only 66 years old.

replies(4): >>azinma+0j >>alea_i+vl >>rayine+uz1 >>JamesB+IO1
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15. azinma+0j[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 18:22:36
>>sangno+cc
You’re also ignoring the impact of cultural values here. Education is particularly favored in Nigerian cultures, especially amongst immigrants.
replies(1): >>sangno+2h1
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16. azinma+qj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 18:24:38
>>inglor+X7
I can tell you one anecdote — I have a Nigerian friend who is very high up at a FAANG, well dressed and mannered (and wealthy), who is pulled over _monthly_ in the Bay Area driving a fancy SUV. Nearly every time they ask him “is this your car?”
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17. alea_i+vl[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 18:33:41
>>sangno+cc
> That depends - are you willing to admit that the education issue is a race issue?

There is no uneducated white people who experience a massive income gap maybe?

replies(1): >>sangno+1i1
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18. tolbis+ZL[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 20:27:00
>>inglor+X7
The US has a very different relationship with race than your country.
19. Solar1+ga1[view] [source] 2021-02-24 22:15:50
>>rayine+(OP)
You're assuming racism is the cause of the gaps. Big assumption. Out of wedlock births alone will explain a gap of that size: more than 70% of black American children are born out of wedlock. That's a disastrous figure, an emergency really. There is no point wasting a moment's time on imagined racism when variables like that are looming so large. If that behavior doesn't change, there will be no closing of any gaps.
replies(1): >>DenisM+OF1
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20. sangno+2h1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 22:50:36
>>azinma+0j
> You’re also ignoring the impact of cultural values here.

You may also be ignoring the impact of immigration policy: there are a limited number of ways for Nigerians to (legally) get into the US - they no longer qualify for the DV program (unlike other immigrants who do not have a similar selection pressure). If you filter for educated Nigerians by leaving only F/M visa as a way to get into the country, you get mostly Nigerians who value education who qualified for the respective visa's (and their offspring) - there is nothing inherent to Nigerian culture there.

replies(1): >>azinma+yi1
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21. sangno+1i1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 22:56:56
>>alea_i+vl
I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing.
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22. azinma+yi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 23:00:50
>>sangno+2h1
But then you'd expect to see the same thing for other groups subject to such immigration policy, but you don't [1]:

> The data showed 27 percent of non-Hispanic white Americans have bachelor’s degrees and 8 percent hold master’s degrees, according to the 2015 census. The survey also revealed that 4 percent of Nigerians in the U.S. have doctorates, compared to 1 percent of white Americans. And Nigerian-Americans’ education achievements top those of any other U.S. immigrant group. Asians come closest, with 12 percent holding master’s degrees and 3 percent having doctorates.

This article and it's viewpoint on the culture matches what my friends who are either Nigerian or have lived in Nigeria tell me. I believe it's also one of the main reasons that Jews have been able to do so well financially as a minority despite a long history of oppression -- education helps free you from being a victim to the dominate modes of sidelining a given group (I am Jewish and this certainly has been a big factor in both my family's values and others that I know, and has allowed my own family to escape poverty in Russia).

[1] https://www.ozy.com/around-the-world/why-nigerian-americans-...

replies(1): >>sangno+Ek1
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23. sangno+Ek1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-24 23:13:58
>>azinma+yi1
> But then you'd expect to see the same thing for other groups subject to such immigration policy, but you don't

Proving my theory wrong would require showing a country that is subject to the same policy, but somehow not supplying educated immigrants. If "Asia" here includes the Indian subcontinent, then I believe the article bolsters my point.

The only other country I'm aware of, that is subject to the same immigration policy is India; while I do not have the stats on hand, my gut is that Indian immigrants have higher than average incomes, are generally more educated, and/or are biased to careers in technology since that industry makes heavy use of one of the more reliable immigration paths remaining to them - the H1-B.

Random immigrants (from anywhere on earth) outperform born-Americans on income and entrepreneurship - regardless of their prior education (you can chalk this to self-selection and/or motivation). Putting in an additional filter on higher education just skews the bias further

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24. rayine+uz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-25 00:49:46
>>sangno+cc
The data doesn’t fit that theory. Latino immigrants, for example, have historically had low levels of education prior to immigration. But for decades the trend has been for Latino incomes to converge with white incomes over a few generations. During that same time, incomes for Black people and native Americans have not converged at all.

It’s also not just a parental income thing. Whites in the bottom 20% of the income spectrum have much double the income mobility of Black people in the bottom 20%. The structural barriers to Black mobility go well beyond income: https://academic.oup.com/qje/article/135/2/711/5687353

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25. DenisM+OF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-25 01:50:54
>>Solar1+ga1
I wonder would happen if single-parenting was controller for? Would outcomes come up to par with other races?
replies(1): >>Solar1+MK1
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26. Solar1+MK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-25 02:44:41
>>DenisM+OF1
It will be a chunk. It accounts for a lot of income variance in existing research, like Chetty's at Harvard. He and his colleagues seemed to bury the effect though in at least one of their papers on "inequality", which is frustrating since the effect size was the largest of all their predictors. They're ideologically biased, which is a huge problem in social "science" right now, and they don't want to talk about anything related to individuals' own behavior ot choices. They prefer to focus on blaming exogenous factors, society, etc.

IQ score differences are huge, and I'm not sure that anyone knows why. We might not have the full picture there for another 50+ years. At this point it would very difficult to even research it given that leftists will try to destroy your career if you do (e.g. the SPLC will smear you as a "white supremacist" if you research or discover or report group differences that are unfavorable to a non-white group, as they have smeared Charles Murray). The black-white IQ differences are greater than one standard deviation, which was very confusing to discover in graduate school – I had no idea. Since IQ predicts income, there is little chance of income parity anytime soon, unless we can find a sort of loophole around that relationship. But we won't be finding any loopholes or workarounds if we're not allowed to research it, so...

The out-of-wedlock birth rate and the IQ disparity are beefy predictors because they're so large in magnitude. Those two variables virtually guarantee a large income difference. There's really no way for a group to make as much money as another group if they're having 72% of their kids out-of-wedlock when the other group is at 20-25%, and also spotting the other group maybe 14+ points on mean IQ. Given those starting conditions, I wouldn't even worry about racism or talk about racism. I would focus on the things that I know are real and the I know are having a huge impact. There isn't any evidence of an equivalent effect of racism. That would be interesting to think about. For racism to be as punchy as out-of-wedlock births or IQ, we would need to see a situation like where basically black college graduates couldn't get jobs due to simple racial discrimination, at a really punchy rate. We don't see that. Systemic racism doesn't exist in the US by any definition I would think of based simply on the term. It seems to reduce to subjective construals through a leftist abstraction layer and symbolic/ideological framework. In other words, you need to be a leftist to see it, and if you don't see this invisible thing, you're a bad person. It's an arbitrary ideology at that point, and the timing is nothing short of predominant.

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27. JamesB+IO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-25 03:24:54
>>sangno+cc
How are you measuring poor education?
replies(1): >>sangno+gP1
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28. sangno+gP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-25 03:30:21
>>JamesB+IO1
States actually measure this: pick any metric you want (you may choose any of dropout rate, pass rate, sport budget, student:teacher ratio, college admission rate for a start) and compare how each school is doing compared to the average.
replies(1): >>JamesB+l62
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29. JamesB+l62[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-25 06:58:00
>>sangno+gP1
I can't find any student:teacher ratio statistics anywhere. Are you sure it's different by race?
replies(1): >>sangno+Sk2
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30. sangno+Sk2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-02-25 09:53:42
>>JamesB+l62
I never suggested the statistics are by race: I clearly said the comparison is between schools in the comment you replied to.
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