- John Carmack signal boosting[1] Sarah Downey's article "This PC witch-hunt is killing free speech, and we have to fight it"[2]
- The critical comments on the obligatory "BLM" post in r/askscience[3]
- Glenn Loury's response[4] to Brown University's letter to faculty/alumni about racial justice.
- The failure[5] of a group of folks to cancel Steven Pinker over accusations of racial insensitivity.
[1] https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1279105937404579841
[2] https://medium.com/@sarahadowney/this-politically-correct-wi...
[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/gvc7k9/black_li...
[4] https://www.city-journal.org/brown-university-letter-racism
[5] https://mobile.twitter.com/sapinker/status/12799365902367907...
The article he linked to was a little peculiar. As someone who's inclined to agree with the author about the First Amendment, the poorly thought out paragraph about racism - using a link to hate crime statistics to demonstrate the low numbers of "actual racists," but then making a remark like The statement “black lives matter” is easy to agree with if you’re a decent human being, which raises some questions about why we all have so many not-decent people (just indecent, not actual racists?) in our social media feeds - distracted from the overall message.
So it seems rather ironic to write an article about 'political witchhunts' using someone who is claiming that Republicans are going to be systematically hunted down and murdered. I don't think the article was written in good faith at all.
[1] https://twitter.com/ScottAdamsSays/status/127830983545328435...
Is this really a "bright spot"? Expressing a fear (without any reasoning or evidence shown as the basis for that fear) that one's opponents approve of an atrocious campaign orchestrated by a totalitarian regime?
There's a lot of room to criticize "cancel culture" and deplatforming. Comparisons with mass killings and state-orchestrated oppression is an odd choice, and (to take the other side of the fence here) with about the same amount of merit as saying that people critical of BLM have similar opinions of the Nazi regime.
Do you have any sources I can read on this? If anything, it seems the radical left actually left Badiou and his ilk behind for the Frankfurt School, and even then, I'm doubtful as to what that intellectual heritage means to your average "radical leftist" today. This is all beside the point, however - is there a recent (from the past 20 years) poll or anything similar surveying the "radical left" (which, mind you, includes anti-statists and anarcho-Communists) on their opinion of the Cultural Revolution? One of the largest "radical leftist" groups in the West is Antifa, but from what I know, it's hard to see any Maoism (or Maoist ideas) present in its members[0]. The Sino-Soviet split and the ascension of Deng liberalizing China has practically deadened Maoist ideology in the West. You'd have a better (but still somewhat shaky) case to say the radical left today draws from Stalinism instead (as opposed to Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, etc.).
>They have approved of the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" in the past
To what degree? In what numbers? For example, I can't name a single leftist journal which the majority of contributors could be aligned with Maoist views, never mind views supporting the Cultural Revolution. Even the Maoists I know of with some influence (e.g. Badiou) are critical of the cultural revolution.
>and for all we know, they continue to do so
So it's a superstition?
>The M.O. is certainly similar.
Which mainstream leftist organizations (mainstream enough to guide the course of the modern "radical left") approve of state-sanctioned murder and imprisonment of intellectuals?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Ideolog...
There is a direct line of descent between the Nazi government in Germany and the current space efforts, too.
If people are willing to hunt and cancel people without giving the accused a chance to even defend themselves (leading to reputation, job loss, etc), physical harm seems like the next logical step.
"The modern Antifa movement has its roots in the West German Außerparlamentarische Opposition left-wing student movement ... The first Antifa groups in this tradition were founded by the Maoist Communist League in the early 1970s. From the late 1980s, West Germany's squatter scene and left-wing autonomism movement were the main contributors to the new Antifa movement ..."
The reference to "autonomism" implies a historical link to "revolutionary spontaneism" groups who, generally speaking, were especially enthusiastic about Marxism-Leninism-Maoism (that is, Mao Zedong Thought as "transferred" to the Western context) and the CR in particular. It might be hard to believe, but the links are quite clear once you do some digging.
> The Sino-Soviet split and the ascension of Deng liberalizing China has practically deadened Maoist ideology in the West.
Maybe so in the United States, but it did not have the same outcome elsewhere in the West. (And the real turning point was Nixon going to China, that made overt references to Maoist China somewhat unpalatable for radicals in the U.S. and to some extent the UK. Changes in deeper ideology are not nearly as easy or quick, however.)
She parrots tired cliches (you couldn't make Blazing Saddles today!) in a world where we're realizing that many beloved comedians are sexual predators as well.
She thinks JK Rowling did nothing wrong, she only followed the science! (no mention that she explicitly accuses transwomen of being a danger to ciswomen, she thinks trans rights are brainwashing teenagers into wanting to change their gender, and has a few other obviously transphobic and harmful calls to action).
She accuses the people calling for lockdowns and isolation for Covid19 of not caring about poor people, when the highest voices on this were also calling for relief funds and rent freezes.
She then accuses the BLM protesters of violence and looting, with not one word about the police escalation of violence, nor of white supremacist provocateurs.
And of course, she thinks wanting to join protests for social justice is hypocrisy if yesterday you were encouraging people not to go to clubs and restaurants to avoid the pandemic.
And finally, of course she will defend the right of Holocaust deniers to be heard, but calls for the most powerful celebrities to shut up or change their ways are harrasement and a sign that free speach is dead.
The whole article is a collection of these reactionary hot takes, peppered with self-defenses of how progressive the author is (she is Jewish! And has gay friends! And enjoys RuPaul's drag race!), meant to make it sound like she is one of the people who would support the causes she is actually attacking.
Coordinated attempts to ruin peoples ability to earn a living is pretty bad. It also strikes me that such economic terrorism could very well be the precursors to actual killing and state oppression. People who don't respect the right to liberty or property of others probably don't respect their right to life either.
> with about the same amount of merit as saying that people critical of BLM have similar opinions of the Nazi regime.
I agree with the point that our criticism needs to have some proportionality, but I don't think this particular comparison is entirely valid. In both the Cultural Revolution and the current Cancel Culture, the objective is the purging institutions of dissidents and the destruction of all artifacts of the old order (e.g. destruction of statues, including Frederick Douglass for some reason). Whatever the people participating in Cancel Culture believe, they are still following the Cultural Revolution template. Obviously the Cultural Revolution was far more violent, but I think that assuming such mass violence can't or won't happen here is mistaken.
On the other hand, there are plenty of critics of BLM who are quite ardently against abusive policing, but either don't think the racial component is as central to the problem of authoritarian policing as BLM claims, or object to some of the other principles of BLM that have nothing to do with race or policing.
"The plight of Trotskyism had been even more bleak, reduced to eking out a semi-clandestine existence within the PCI. Neither of these fates par-ticularly appealed to the editors of Classe Operaia; nor, for that matter, did they show any great interest in the first murmurings of Italian Maoism. Their reasons for such diffidence, beyond the vagaries of sectarian politiCS, were rational enough, being based on the realisation that a new organisation unable to command the support of a large slice of the working class was doomed to failure. This lesson, moreover, had been reinforced for the Venetians by their unsuccessful attempts to build workplace committees outside the offiCial labour movement, a failure that led them temporarily to advance a more cautious approach to autonomous organisation. Both the Northerners and Romans, then, were initially united in rejecting what they called 'Trotskyist tactics' and 'Chinese dances' (Tronti 1966: 32), even if their motives for doing so were rather different." (from Storming Heaven by Steve Wright[0]).
You're going to need a stronger case than saying that the West German movement was Maoist and therefore Antifa in the US and elsewhere today is Maoist too - especially when you contradict your own claim that by the 1980s they'd moved on to autonomism. Please provide an analysis of the prevalence of Maoism or Maoist ideas as it exists today within the mainstream American radical left.
[0] https://libcom.org/files/Wright%20S%20-%20Storming%20Heaven%...
Also an interview done with him a few weeks ago: https://www.city-journal.org/racism-is-an-empty-thesis
The objection that most have to the phrase "black lives matter" is exactly the same objection that most have to "all lives matter". That is, essentially no-one objects to the sentiment expressed in the words in and of themselves, but they are suspicious of the political motivations of those who use the slogan.
There is a relative minority of people that engage in what is called "vice-signaling". That is, they claim to object to a commonly held moral sentiment that they feel has been co-opted for a partisan political cause. I think it's probably a counter-productive strategy, but I think those people can be reasoned with if you can separate the moral sentiment from the political platform.
Or is it the New York Times’ claim that “nearly everything that has made America exceptional grew out of slavery?” https://mobile.twitter.com/maragay/status/116140196616729805....
Or is it that we need to “disrupt the western-prescribed nuclear family structure,” as BLM’s website claims? https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
Or is it that “institutions of white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy and colonialism” are all equivalent evils that must be “abolished,” as BLM’s DC chapter proclaims? https://fee.org/articles/is-black-lives-matter-marxist-no-an...
Or is it—as the 1619 project claims and which is now being taught in schools—the supposed historical fact that capitalism is an outgrowth of plantation slavery? https://www.city-journal.org/1619-project-conspiracy-theory
Or is it applied Marxism?
> No doubt, the organization itself was quite radical from the very beginning. Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors described herself and fellow co-founder Alicia Garza as “trained Marxists” in a recently resurfaced video from 2015.
Look at how much the debate has transformed within the last month. It started out with universal condemnation of a murder committed by the police in Minnesota. Now, we are talking about tearing town statues of Abraham Lincoln: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2020/06/26/uw-... (“Students in the UW-Madison's Black student union are calling on university officials to remove the statue of the nation's 16th president.”) My high school, named after Thomas Jefferson, is thinking of renaming itself. We are debating whether the Constitution as a “pro-slavery document.”
I am pro-BLM. To me, it’s a matter of my faith, as well as my personal experience living in places like Baltimore and Philadelphia and realizing that Black people just aren’t getting a fair shake. I think people of every stripe can do something to help finish the job of reconstruction. Libertarians can pitch in to help end police abuse of minorities. Conservatives can help push forward school choice, which the majority of Black people support. Middle of the road people can agree that we need to undo the pro-confederacy monument building that happened during the KKK era.
But I also believe that our country rests on mostly admirable principles and history, and that Marxism is a recipe for suffering while capitalism is uplifting billions of people before our very eyes. I can hardly blame people who are skeptical when they are forced to chant a slogan that was coined by self-avowed Marxists. You can’t blame people for being cautious in their support of a movement that has under the same roof a majority of well-meaning people who simply want to eliminate police brutality and inequality, and a vocal minority of people who view those problems as an indictment of our entire country and it’s institutions. The far left, in characteristic fashion, has taken something most people could agree on, and pushed it further and further until normal people are forced to push back to keep society from crumbling beneath their feet. And that’s a tragedy for everyone, especially people who care about the core concept of fixing policing in America.
Haven't you seen the amount of people that are participating in these demonstrations? Of course you're gonna find self-described "Marxists" among them. Doesn't mean that the average protestor is some sort of Stalinist relic from the 1960ths. That's just absurd.
I think that's a false dichotomy; there's plenty of amazing Marxist literature, academic journals, etc. from well-meaning people. It's one thing to say that Marxists are misguided, but it's another thing to describe them in a situation as if they're against well-meaning moderates. It's possible for everyone to be well-meaning, and rather than assuming malice, perhaps it's a better idea to examine their point of view and arguments. I know I've taken the time to do that with right-libertarians and right-wingers online a few times.
Why do these intelligent people (tenured philosophers, sociologists, political scientists, even economists) think Marxism isn't a recipe for suffering? What do they have to say about capitalism, its advantages, and disadvantages? It's worth asking them and reading their modern point of views, which in the past fifteen years have changed a great deal already.
But several of the BLM founders are, by their own description, Marxists, and that is a very different thing from happening to "find self-described 'Marxists' among" the protesters. People with lots of different views can happen to find themselves on the same side of any issue. I do think it's different when you're talking about the founders of an organization that is the de facto figurehead of the movement.
I'm not sure that's true. Stipulating that it was "the greatest problem", how could it be the defining characteristic considering all the other historical instances of mass murder?
The overall message (the theme, if you prefer) of Sarah Downey's article that Carmack linked to was a defense of freedom of speech. I thought the stuff she wrote about racism was flawed enough - to be charitable, perhaps it was flawed because it wasn't the main topic of the piece and it wasn't getting sufficient space - that it took away from a potentially strong defense of freedom of speech.
> The far left, in characteristic fashion, has taken something most people could agree on, and pushed it further and further until normal people are forced to push back to keep society from crumbling beneath their feet.
That is a humorous image and it is an accurate summary of some people's thinking, but I don't know quite what to say about it without giving it more credence than I believe it deserves. If we side with the Marxists in opposing the murder of innocent people we will be living in a Communist state by Thursday is not a train of thought I would have a lot of sympathy for, even if Marxism were a force in American politics.
This is revisionist, though, isn't it? And in a way that specifically eliminates the meaning of the protests. The protests started before the officers were charged, I believe. And while it may not be reasonable to expect the arrests to happen instantly, it's also reasonable that people doubted it would happen at all.
Assuming you mean well and all, this specific wording could nevertheless be interpreted as a dog whistle. It triggers some peoples' political immune system.
I'm a regular reader of Jacobin, so I have some idea of what modern Marxists think. (Though I won't say I'm well read on the subject.) But that's besides the point--I have no objection to Marxists participating in solving police brutality and inequality. I'm addressing the practice of socially coercing people to say "black lives matter." What ideas are you actually asking people to endorse? I think many, many people are happy to endorse that idea insofar as it means "the police shouldn't murder black people because of the color of their skin," or "black people shouldn't get the short end of the economic stick."
But the eponymous organization behind the slogan happens to be led by Marxists and has a Marxist and anti-Western platform. I think people are quite reasonably hesitant that what they're actually being asked to endorse is the platform and ideology of the organization. And I think it's perverse to insist on such endorsement under the banner of anti-racism.
> You're pretty obviously implying that these protests are somehow linked to Marxism, otherwise that entire posts make little sense. I realize that conservatives always want to find some "leaders" to argue with rather than accept that it's a mass movement, not some top-down movement that has some sort of charter that most must directly or indirectly accept.
I am not arguing that we should discredit the narrow goals of the protestors because of the ideologies of the BLM founders. In fact, I said exactly the opposite:
> I am pro-BLM... I think people of every stripe can do something to help finish the job of reconstruction.
But that's not what we're talking about. We are talking about a very specific quote from John Carmack upthread: "the statement 'black lives matter' is easy to agree with if you’re a decent human being." It is disingenuous to the extreme to suggest that one might not reasonably be concerned about the scope of that statement.
They don't. Our at least, not as much as other lives.
So? If there's a Yellow Vests non-profit started in France that has its own charter and leaders doesn't make the yellow vest somehow within that group in any practical sense.
What's your point trying to make this Marxist connection if there's indeed just some what you call leaders with Marxist connections? I mean you're saying that you're unsure if "black lives matter" includes Marxism?
Violence and extreme social distress, public humiliation sessions, public beatings were meted out rather liberally. A specifically pernicious aspect of Mao's strategam was turning generation against generation. These are the defining characteristics of Chinese Communist Party's Cultural Revolution.
Why is this problematic for you? They're not saying children don't need caregivers, or that families are bad. They're saying the American nuclear family has downsides compared to other models, notably the extended family model common in African and Asian cultures. What makes a nuclear family "nuclear" is that it's self-contained; it's practically by definition not intergenerational, the way many effective non-American families are. It's an especially resonant point given the amount of effort American culture put into making sure black nuclear families couldn't succeed.
I feel like criticism of the American nuclear family has been pretty much fair game for decades; it's not like BLM invented that concern.
There is a strain of socialist activism in BLM (you saw it with the ridiculous "property crime isn't violence" stuff). But those were voices in a larger crowd, and the movement doesn't seem to endorse them explicitly.
There are BLM signs all over Oak Park and, I assure you, very few of these people actually want to defund the Oak Park Police Department. I think BLM supporters have more clarity on the issues than you give them credit for: they're standing in solidarity with black people who have been targeted for generations by a policing culture we all know to be fucked up. They're not looking to seize the means of production.
And it's become a distraction from that. The US has a serious problem with police brutality and quality control. US cops killed 1,112 people in 2019. That's over 10x the rate for EU countries. The odds are worse if you're black, but more whites are killed by cops than blacks.
That's the problem. Statues don't kill. Flags don't kill. Cops kill.
Ken White had some smart things to say about this today, with respect to "the problem of the preferred first speaker". Worth tracking down.
That's not to say there aren't dark spots; David Shor's firing certainly appears to be one of them. But I don't think any of those dark spots put Pinker, the T-1000 version of Charles Murray, above criticism. Which is, of course, what an open letter against "public shaming" purports to do.
These people make concrete conjectures, such as "the capital gains tax preference" (which is nearly universal in the developed world and widely supported by economists) "is racist." And they make concrete policy proposals, such as the following (remember the author has previously defined the capital gains preference to be racist):
> [The anti-racist amendment] would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas. The DOA would be empowered with disciplinary tools to wield over and against policymakers and public officials who do not voluntarily change their racist policy and ideas.
The public humiliation sessions are what I think most people that didn't study it think of, combined with the violence. They're what I vaguely think of; they're what you mention, and I'm confident they're what most people think of. The concept of such sessions is something that found its way into Western fiction (e.g. 80s SF) clearly inspired by the historical period. I don't recall a specific example, but this is something I always assumed was part of popular culture at some level.
While we're on that topic (popular impressions of Chinese history), a lot of people died during the "Great Leap Forward" too, but again, I don't think the average uninformed opinion of what defines it is "mass murder". When I think of that, I think of peasants trying to make steel and other social disruption.
Those two words seem to express what I think is a crucial falsehood, and it works for selective communication (dog whistling) if some people get cognitive dissonance for it and others don't. We have me as an example of the former and you as an example of the latter.
I'm not saying it's intentional, but it raises hackles for me.
I think we need police reform. As a military veteran I think there is no reason that an MRAP should be on American streets, but I also think the police have pretty large responsibilities and need more training too.
We also (and I’ll say that I am a 2nd Amendment proponent - within reason) have police who have to enter into situations where the other person may be armed, which adds to the stress level.
Frankly, if you look at the stats I’m not even sure we have a police brutality problem; instead we have more of a police abuse of power problem.
Solutions that come to mind:
More training
More pay
More strict hiring requirements
Abolition of police unions
Requiring police to carry insurance
No-hire once fired or terminated from a department (generally but there are specifics here to be discussed)
Sell off and no more spending on war equipment (MRAPs, assault rifles, smoke grenades, whatever)
Mandatory body cams, lack of use results in immediate suspension without pay while an investigation takes place, and if the camera is intentionally turned off immediate termination and no ability to be rehired anywhere in the country
That’s what I would start with
Let's take the examples in question: I've never seen either Murray or Pinker come out of the gates swinging with poorly framed appeals to genetic determinism (if they make reference to such things at all it's almost always in response to criticism, and it never seems to be more than very light handed considered speculation). I've also never seen them lob insults, outright support mob justice, or make a targeted cherry-picked attempt to discredit a particular individual (admittedly I'm only so plugged in so it's possible I'm missing something). Yet their critics seem frequently guilty of this.
In other words, I don't think I'm holding them to a lower standard for having spoken first. Am I misunderstanding the argument? Or am I actually doing this and I'm just not aware of it?
Edit: Perhaps it's also worth stating that I do hold these two people in high regard which definitely lowers my defenses when it comes to quickly evaluating their various claims. Mainly based on how they have engaged in good faith. That said, I disagree with both of them a lot. Recently I've put a lot of effort into identifying a group of folks that I disagree with but respect, since it seems like almost nobody does that and it seems like a big problem that people only respect those they agree with.
(I strongly disagree with your take on Pinker and Murray! But that's neither here nor there as far as my argument goes.)
It's not _on_ American streets. I lived in the US for 20 years and I've never seen one. Likely some SWAT teams purchased them for pennies on the dollar, but I'd argue SWAT teams need them, to reduce casualties when getting close to violent action.
> assault rifles
To the best of my knowledge assault rifles are not in use by US police. AR15 is not an assault rifle.
I saw plenty in London though.
But that's nuance - people younger than, say, 35, won't understand any of it. Literally nobody is interested in the actual reform at the moment. If they were, we'd see some serious proposals by now.
Road to hell is paved with good intentions, clearly. Having grown up in the Soviet Union, I want absolutely no part of that shit here in the US. None whatsoever, "well meaning" or not
You probably already know this, but that number is a bit of a guess and almost certainly on the low side, since local police aren't required to report these numbers to the public or to any central authority.
The Cultural Revolution is a poor analog in other ways as well (I mean, upon examination the comparison to our current moment doesn't hold up at all and it's boring to discuss) but the large number of dead people seems like an especially important indicator that perhaps what's happening today is not as serious as all that, and that the author is engaging in some pretty extreme hyperbole. (which is their right of course, blah blah)
Check yourself, pot, that's an awfully broad brush to be calling a kettle incapable of nuance with.
What's less free is threatening to use a billion dollar fortune to file a defamation lawsuit against someone for expressing an opinion on Twitter, which at least one of the signatories did.
It never occurred to me that that rayiner might have been using some kind of dog whistle in his reply to me. It would be rather out of character, and yours seems like a needlessly uncharitable interpretation of his comment.
Sure, but the notions of "re-education", "self-criticism" and the struggle-session as a form of public humiliation where someone is forced to admit their "crimes" before the "people" are a distinctive part of leftist social strife and oppression. And it seems quite relevant to point out that these social practices have led to mass murder in at least one instance that we know about, where they were promoted in an extensive "grassroots" campaign and thereby became widespread. We're not talking about willful and intentional physical purges of intellectuals ala Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge, where your contention that mass murder is the defining element of it all would be far more on point.
I think you're quite severely overestimating both the number of people who are asking others to endorse Marxism when pressuring them to support their side in the current moment, and more to the point, the number of people who perceive themselves as being pressured to endorse Marxism in the current moment. There is some tangible benefit to both the far left and to the right for there to be a perception that that is what is going on, but I'm just not seeing it much IRL.
My extended social circle might not be representative of anything, but people are talking about cops murdering people, the behavior and misbehavior of protesters, whether vandalism during a protest is bad or somehow actually good for some reason (sigh), whether protesters deserve to suffer brutality at the hands of police (double sigh), whether racism is even a thing and whether whites are the REAL victims of racism (facepalm), whether events that are happening and are clearly documented on widely distributed video are really happening or whether that's just what "they" want us to think, and some other crazy stuff that I bet would sound familiar to you as well.
I think I'd actually feel a lot better about things if I were witnessing an argument about fringe political beliefs coming to the fore, rather than finding out how many people I know are overtly or covertly racist. That sounds a little negative but some demonstrably good things are happening as well, so... you take the bad with the good, I guess.
> I think I'd actually feel a lot better about things if I were witnessing an argument about fringe political beliefs coming to the fore, rather than finding out how many people I know are overtly or covertly racist.
That makes sense, but it's also sensible to ask whether hijacking a much-needed conversation about race and police brutality to push fringe, Marxist-inspired political views helps people and institutions become less racist. It's not even clear that 'Black Lives Matter', as an overtly organized and led social movement, is doing all that much to meaningfully improve Black lives.
Question: can you see how mixing this into BLM is a problem? I can take an unpaid day off to protest police brutality but this very quickly escalated into something completely different.
FTR, my stance on this:
- I'm not happy to support anything that wants to remove police. More training: yes. Tougher penalties for people abusing police power: yes. But removing one of most effective stabilizers in the society: no. For all its warts, the police is important.
- While I grew up in the same house as my grandparents until I was 6 or so and while my mothers parents and other relatives walked freely in and out of the house as long as they could walk I do not want to support a movement that had any opinion on how I or anyone organize our family life
- I'm kind of a socialist at heart but sadly could never vote that way as a every socialist party around here pulls in ugly dependencies, so for now and for the foreseeable future, the second best option: support anyone who wants to leave people alone.
- As this movement had started to try to tear down Churchill - not the bravest ot noblest man - but arguably one of those whose actions mattered most to reduce police brutality (Gestapo) and racism in Europe and no one is stopping them I've concluded that this movement is beyond repair. (Anyone should feel free to prove me wrong here by turning that movement around.)
Edit:
- some clarification
- also, based on the feedback so far: am I misunderstanding something (I had a misunderstanding a few days ago where someone meant nazi but used an euphemisms that I didn't catch in that context.)
Ans: Not generally.
The parent poster described himself in another comment as pro-BLM (his phrase), and I think he was making some slightly more subtle points.
[1] https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/17/candace-ow...
People are free to insult others and you are free to counter-insult them. And you are also free to write an open letter asking people to try to discuss their issues, rather then insulting each other, circulating petitions against each other or getting each other fired.
>People are not required to express only opinions you approve of.
This is what you might call the "doctrine of the second speaker". Alice expresses a view Bob finds offensive. Bob calls for Alice to be fired. John says that people shouldn't be fired for expressing offensive views. Then Tom points out that "People are not required to express only opinions you approve of." After all, Bob's call for Alice to be fired is protected by the first amendment, therefore (?) it's wrong to critizise people for calling for others to be fired for offensive views.
You belong to a culture and a nation which already enforces strong opinions on how its members organize our family lives. Therefore, it's a fair question to ask how effective those opinions are, and whether different opinions might be more effective.
Not the 'American' -> 'Western'. And that's just way of making the 'family' consistent with 'Colonialism' and 'White People' because it suits their bigotry. The nuclear family is pretty closely similar around the world, outside of mostly aboriginal communities. Obviously it's somewhat different in different places, with multi-generations under the same roof.
I view this as fundamentally antagonistic - it's 'making stuff up' to find supposedly powerful and inspiring words, 'defining the enemy' ever more as 'White People'.
It defines their struggle as not one to 'finish school and gain competence' but as merely against the forces of 'White people'.
Of course by most objective measures, nuclear families are good for society.
This is the inherent problem when we mix radicalism with 'good intentions' - they end up mestastisizing the 'grain of truth' (ie racism exists) into everything (ie everything is racist).
And Americans shoot at each other and Cops at a rate >10x than Europe.
The misrepresentation in your comment, is that it doesn't account for the differing conditions the cops face.
'Cops kill' -> 'People who shoot at cops get killed'.
This isn't to say police violence is not a problem, but it's misrepresented by all of this narrative.
If Americans were not carrying guns everywhere, this would be an entirely different conversation.
So it is not true that everyone agreed from the beginning as it took a week to get to the point where everyone went "oh shit this is serious".
The criticism is against all families, extended or not. The idea from Marxism is that tribalism starts in the family unit. The aim is to get the village to raise the child, not just allow the grandmother to lend a hand.
The western family includes the European models, it doesn't only contain the Protestant isolated family structure.
Your question should therefore be re written as "why does advocating for having a family to be made up of people not related to the child be seen as problematic"?
Can you explain?
(My understanding is that my nation cares less about how people organize their lives than it has done for at least 900 years.
People live together 3 generations, other live as single, others as unmarried couples, married couples and everything in between.)
If you reject the thought that the United States has slavery built deeply into its ideology, then you should award that same consideration to BLM and admit that the fundamentals of its ideology are not Marxism etc., but that Black people are fundamentally not given a fair shake by society, as you say.
This is leaving aside the point other posters have made, which is that Black Lives Matter as a slogan and idea exists outside this specific foundation. I don't think you can reasonably expect someone asserting "Black Lives Matter" to have made a complete study of this specific foundation and be in agreement with all its aims.
At very least English families have more in common with German families than German families do with Italian or Spanish families.
But it's moot: because family structure across civility is not fundamentally different with respect to the antagonising view of BLM.
Aside from some degree of intergenerational cohabitation, it's not that different in advanced countries.
The BLM statement with respect to family is unfounded bigotry, specifically created to concretise and define the image of their enemy.
It's very similar to Trump specifically trying to use the term 'Wuhan Virus' so as to invoke 'blame' for the virus on China. There is a 'kernel of truth' to complicity in China - in that China did some very bad things during the early phase of the pandemic, but that doesn't justify the use of this kind of language to blame them for the entirety of the problem. The language he uses here is to provoke - and to shift blame for the inadequacies of his own system, using crude language mapped onto an external group. When in doubt, use xenophobia.
BLM attacking the 'Western Family Unit' is shifting the narrative and denying any responsibility for a very foundational problem within the community - and that is >50% of Black children have little no relationship with at least one of their parents, and that rates are about double for Black families as they are for other groups [1]. Now - obviously it's a very complicated problem (i.e. incarceration etc.), but it's a lot easier to dismiss if you don't have to see it as a problem, rather, merely an oppressive measure by your villainous opponents.
The argument "The Black community has challenges at least partly due to the deep fragmentation of the family unit" can simply be dismissed and ignored with the radical, and ironically xenophobic statement: "The family unit is colonialist and racist".
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_struct...
Also - that the vast majority of gun owners are 'very responsible' doesn't change the fact that as cops pull people over, there is a reasonable likelihood people will have weapons, which ratchets up the likelihood that someone, even in a 'good area' will do something bad. The likelihood is small, but enough to make a difference.
When I've been pulled over in the US, often the officer approaches and doesn't quite come to the side of the window, remains slightly out of sight, they might have one hand on the flashlight and seem to be quite concerned about visually inspecting inside the car as a precaution. In Canada, I don't really see this. I believe this is a function of the likelihood of weapons.
Also, America differs in citizens likelihood of doing something pretty outrageous when confronted with police. I'm not sure why this is, I guess a cultural attribute - but again, combine this with weapons, and it makes policing materially more dangerous.
Here's the data on high-speed chases in the US [1] and a 'high point' for high speed chases in the UK as a comparison. [2]
Here are the number of US police killed in the line of duty [3], it's quite a lot, and the number of UK police killed [4] (it amounts to about 1 per year).
A lot of guns, a propensity for more violent acts, I think really does shift the equilibrium.
Which doesn't justify excess violence by cops of course, but it's a different context.
[1] https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5906
[2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/05/police-pursuit-d...
[3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36748136
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officer...
They could also not be. Even the phrasing of "economic terrorism" stretches both the terminology of economy and terrorism beyond what most people would consider by the terms.
> People who don't respect the right to liberty or property of others probably don't respect their right to life either.
Which of the 'cancel culture' advocates don't respect the right to liberty? I can understand they have arguments against the right to (private) property, but this seems far more abstract.
>the objective is the purging institutions of dissidents and the destruction of all artifacts of the old order
I have some recollection of Marcuse's argument that the qualitative, historical, and social differences between terrors and movements are increasingly being reduced to nothing by the popular consciousness who is only acquainted with them through one-off facts and cherry picking...
>Whatever the people participating in Cancel Culture believe, they are still following the Cultural Revolution template.
What is sufficient to constitute a 'template' here? Let me provide a concrete example; the anarchists of old frequently argued against the notion of human rights, the state, and property. Marx and his followers did the same. Who is following who's template here? As another commenter in this thread pointed out, when most people think of the cultural revolution, they're really not thinking about tearing down statues or call-outs on social media (or even newspapers!) from a mob only given power by association (and not, say, the state or weaponry).
The comparison is almost entirely bunk, and it's a little surprising that Mao's atrocities are being reduced to tearing down statues of slave traders. BLM actually more closely resembles (again, I'm ignoring many qualitative differences here, since it seems to be fair game to do so in this discussion) the systematic removal of Marx and Lenin statues in Europe and especially Lukacs' and Engels' statues being removed recently.
But the ideal of freedom of expression is broader than limitations on the powers of government. The ideal also encompasses social norms that encourage open and honest discussion. Bad arguments made in appropriate public forums should be met with counterarguments, and certainly not with being placed on industry blacklists or getting fired. Otherwise, there are very real chilling effects on the willingness of people to engage in honest discussion. (To clarify what I mean by "appropriate public forum" above, let me give an example: Protesting someone's funeral by marching on a public sidewalk and waving signs inscribed "God hates X" is legally protected (Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U.S. 443 (2011)), but is outside the bounds of what most people would consider appropriate. Protesting in that place and manner rightfully subjects the protester to public scorn.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine
You may be confusing "assault rifle" and "assault weapon" which are different categories. The AR15 does usually qualify as an "assault weapon". The definition of assault weapon is looser, and includes a number of features (such as barrel shrouds and flash suppressors") the sole purpose of which is to make the gun safer to use, and have nothing to do with making them actually more dangerous.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
If you have different sources, feel free so share.
Indeed, the choice was intentional.
> but the general widespread availability of weapons makes them very accessible, both legally and illegally, in specific locations wherein people are going to use them for 'bad things'.
While I don't think the problems of those specific locations should be ignored, their problems are also not a good justification to abridge the rights of people who live outside of those places.
> Also - that the vast majority of gun owners are 'very responsible' doesn't change the fact that as cops pull people over, there is a reasonable likelihood people will have weapons, which ratchets up the likelihood that someone, even in a 'good area' will do something bad. The likelihood is small, but enough to make a difference.
The impact of civilian gun ownership on police interactions is not something I've given much thought, and is worth exploring.
However, I will note that there are many sheriffs across the U.S. which actually encourage their county residents to own guns. There are many, many legitimate defensive guns uses each year.
This category of "more speech", including everything from criticism to calling for someone to get fired is dishonest. The letter doesn't oppose criticism.
Imagine there are two college campuses. On campus A, when students disagree, the students in the majority say they felt unsafe, demand that the students in the minority be expelled, and on occasion succeed. On campus B, when students disagree, they... talk about the issue at hand with each other.
There is free speech on both campuses - after all, the government isn't involved here. Yet I think it's safe to say that orthodox thought (whatever it happens to be at the time of lock-in) is more secure at campus A than campus B. And I think it's reasonable to talk about the difference between the cultures, and advocate for one over the other.
What is the other extended familiy model? family clans? What would be the practical difference? Are the no disadvantages?
Exactly these political issues, which I have no strong opinion on, are randomly added to issues of police violence that makes the whole movement look very dishonest.
Where in the western world are people that tell you how to structure your family?
The movement isn't dishonest. Its critics are simply ignorant. That's not surprising; they've been kept in ignorance deliberately.
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
Are these good guidelines? Do you think they encourage better better discussions? Do you value having a community in which these guidelines are culturally accepted? If people started violating these guidelines en masse, do you think it would make sense to defend them?
Or would that be silly, because the answer to bad speech is more speech?
The way I see it, the answer to bad speech is more speech. But that doesn't mean there can't be cultural differences in the way we use speech - some worlds in which we more often misrepresent our oppenents, interpret their statements in the worst possible light, and use that to attempt to destroy their lives, and some worlds in which we choose not to. I view the letter as an attempt to move us towards the latter world - say, to push discourse away from Twitter-style and towards HN-style debate.
If you understand why someone might defend those cultural norms on Hacker News, then perhaps you can understand why someone would defend those same norms in, say, academia, or journalism, or publishing, or the arts.
As I understand it, you're saying that people are advocating for the free expression of ideas - and yet, when people use that freedom to insult them call for their termination, they get mad. This seems contradictory and unfair to you. If I want the right to say whatever I want, then I have to accept that some people will choose to use that right to say things like "enoch_r is a despicable human being and his employer, family, and friends should all know about it immediately." Is that an accurate summary of your views?
In response, I am saying that norms like we have on HN (such as the principle of charity) contribute to the free expression of ideas. If we didn't have those norms, people wouldn't feel free to investigate controversial ideas, or have discussions like this one, and the intellectual climate would be impoverished.
Similar norms contribute to the free exchange of ideas in academia.
The letter advocates for such norms to be defended in academia.
The literal firing of some nobody over accidentally making a gesture that looked like a "white power" symbol fits very nicely into the idea of "economic terrorism"[1]. The idea that anything you do in your life could be captured, taken out of context, and shared on the Internet and subject to the fury of a mob (and resulting in the loss of income, employability, and economic stability) is pretty terrifying.
What makes it terrorism is not simply that people are subjected to this treatment randomly (although that does happen too, and should not be discounted) but that there is an ideological agenda behind these attacks. The person who posted the picture from the linked article, those who shared it, and possibly even the company that fired him (though they could have just been cowards) all felt that they were contributing toward a righteous cause of fighting against bigotry.
Of course, even if the gesture was genuine the idea that bigots should not be able to even get jobs as repair technicians (assuming that they otherwise conduct themselves in a lawful manner) is baffling to me. There's no justice in going after people who are already relatively low on the social and economic hierarchy just because the believe repugnant things.
[1]https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-ove...
It is not reasonable to export those norms outside of those spaces to other spaces that don't share those idiosyncracies.
Some calls to terminate people are, in my judgement, bad. David Shor is a good example. I will use my freedom of expression to say that the people who called for his ouster made a grave and self-defeating error and should be ashamed of themselves.
Some calls to terminate people are not, in my judgement, bad.
HN might, along with the authors of this Letter, hope for a blanket norm against calling for anyone's ouster. They can ask for it; that's their right. But it's not a reasonable expectation, and they can't honestly pretend the norm already exists or that others are obligated to adhere to it because they want it.
Yes, the suburban happy family living the American dream might be a touch too idealistic, harsh building regulation might drive prices which disadvantages poor demographics and there were maybe people that used it for racist purposes. Doesn't mean everyone did. And high density housing is probably a lot more stressful even without a family apart from the most expensive options available.
Also, barrel length is one of the most common theme in firearms bans. Usually those consist of legal limits on the minimum barrel length in an effort to prevent people from concealing it, I guess.
There is a long case history involving these ordinances, including extensive documentary evidence that occupancy caps and definitions of "immediate family" were designed specifically to exclude blacks (in the first half of the 20th century) and latinos as well (in the second), taking advantage of both the fact that black and latino households are far more likely to include grandparents, aunts, and uncles, and also the (obvious, in retrospect) fact that municipalities simply don't enforce these regulations against white households --- again, a fact documented in the case history.
At any rate, the dispute upthread suggested that there was no racial justice aspect to the "Western-prescribed nuclear family", and whether you agree with the courts or not, there clearly is such an aspect; the allegation that BLM is exceeding its charter by railing against "nuclear families" is easily refuted, and we should have all known better than to raise this objection in the first place.
Generally speaking, it seems to me that much sloppy thinking in the current debate involves the mixture of the following basic errors:
1) Ignorance about biology. Evolutionary biology has been an exceptionally fertile section of science for the last decades, and provided deeper understandings on many biological phenomenon, including human behaviors. The accusers' understanding of biology (e.g. condemning it as "genetic determinism") is at least 50 years behind.
2) Poor understanding of the due process. Calling a random petition to condemn a person publicly is exactly a witch hunt. History proves that it's a very error-prone way to punish someone, and no civilized country accept it as a proper procedure anymore.
As to (2) I'd recommend everyone to read DJB's "The death of due process". It is very important, because it may be you (or your family) to be hung by lynch mobs next time.
I think you're interpreting my comments, and the letter, as saying "there should be a blanket norm against calling for anyone's ouster for their opinions, no matter how vile." I'm not, and I don't think the letter is either.
I'm saying, and I believe the letter is saying, that we have become overly quick to reach for the tools of suppression in response to opposing views. That the spectrum of views which we interpret charitably is shrinking, and the spectrum of views that we view as fireable offenses is growing. It's not simply that the overton window has shifted and previously acceptable views are no longer okay (though I think that's clearly part of it). It's that the overton window has shrunk dramatically, even as we've moved towards much more brutal enforcement of it.
Anyway: thanks for the interesting discussion - I'm glad we've carved out this space for it! ;)