zlacker

> Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police

They are both worried about criminals. The fact that some criminals have badges and guns and a conspiracy of accomplices in positions of power shielding them from accountability for their crimes doesn't make them any less criminals.

> Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the police" or "defund the police", because from their point of view the police are the people most likely to assault or kill them or their children on the street, more so than random criminals

That's starting in the general direction of the truth, but not correct. It's not so much that Black community members (much less BLM activists, who are more likely to have detailed statistics at hand) think police are the most likely threat, but that police as currently constituted are a threat that Black communities both pay for and get poor returns from, both because of actual abuse by police and because their actual law enforcement needs (and other needs which society has shoveled into the police portfolio) are simultaneously underserved (and not just when it comes to crimes by cops; BLM, after all, didn't start in response to police violence.)

>>dragon+(OP)
Not to disagree with the post in general, but at a thousand/year shot and killed by the police in US, they probably are one of the most dangerous threat

For comparison in Italy in 2019 there have been 3 people killed by the police, and people have - rightfully IMO - complained every single time.

In US more than 1k (1040 to be precise) died shot by cops

If we compare the population, there should have been at least 180 victims of police gunning in Italy

That's clearly unacceptable.

Or, from another angle, it means that criminality in US is so much worse than the average EU country that it's ok to kill so many people in the name of safety.

>>asjw+hy
Many, many, many more people in the US are shooting themselves or others than getting shot by police. We're talking like, 1K per year shot by cops versus 100 PER DAY of overall gun murder/suicide. Yes, police violence is a problem, but the 1K shot by cops is mostly an artifact of our crazy high overall gun violence problem.

Edit: so, to summarize, yes, I do think that our crazy high number of people shot by police per capita is because of and strongly related to our crazy high number of people shooting each other and themselves.

>>asjw+hy
>Or, from another angle, it means that criminality in US is so much worse than the average EU country that it's ok to kill so many people in the name of safety.

Number of homicides in the USA in 2017: 19,510

Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.0

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Number of homicides in Italy in 2017: 357

Deaths per 100,000 population: 0.6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Italy

>>asjw+hy
Well, both of the previous answers prove my point

US is a a dangerous country and the police is not doing a good job at all

If there are so many homicides, who should prevent them?

If after killing a hundred people a month (by shooting at them, I presented only the numbers of those killed by a police shooting) they can't even make a dent on the (horrible) numbers, it means they are doing a very bad job.

Tertium non datur

The mob kills less people here.

And we have at least two of the main five criminal organizations in the entire world.

>>Wohlf+0A
Wow, how can we be more like Italy?

>>asjw+hy
Wait. Do we have actual numbers of police shootings? Aren't these things self-reported and under-reported?

>>sixoth+7H
I feel like they probably always report them but lie about the circumstances and say the shooting was justified.

>>noobac+hG
Or really, like pretty much any developed nation.

>>noobac+hG
Get rid of your guns

>>korijn+FO
Easy when you’re not a criminal.

Who will enforce this anyways?

>>korijn+FO
Homicide rate was 4 per 100k in the 50s, spiked up to 10 through the 60s and 70s, dipped a bit in the 80s, then dropped from 1991 to to now back to around 6.

The increase in crime in the 60s and 70s didn't correlate with more guns, the decrease in crime in the late 90's didn't correlate with fewer guns.

There is clearly something going on in the US that drives crime that is not guns. Culture, welfare state, war on drugs, inequality, segregation, failure of the family. Better cases to be made on any of those things than guns.

>>sixoth+7H
I think total killings are pretty accurately reporting.

There were about 1100 police killings in 2019. This includes people shot or beaten to death by officers on or off duty. [1] About 10% of these people were unarmed. This statistic is the one which is most likely under-reported. About 50 police are feloniously killed per year [2]

[1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ [2] https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-release...

>>asjw+9C
How do you know they aren't making a dent in the numbers? You don't know, and can't know, the counter factual. One anecdote though, police are doing less policing right now in cities like Chicago, and the the outcome is not looking good.

At least 106 people shot, 14 fatally, in Chicago weekend violence

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-week...

>>Wohlf+0A
Combining numbers, US police are responsible for ~5% of killings, and Italian police are responsible for < 1%.

On top of that, most experts say the US has a broken criminal justice system that actively prevents rehabilitation. If you count the resulting increase in the crime rate against the police, courts and jails, then their collective actions lead to way more than 5% of the killings.

>>WillPo+KT
Your causation goes the wrong way. The GP didn't say that less crime would cause fewer guns, but that fewer guns would cause less crime. You can't say "but guns stayed the same and crime both increased and decreased at points, which means that guns don't affect crime".

>>noobac+hG
The biggest thing:

* Change rules of engagement for police to emphasise de-escalation when possible and gradual escalation when absolutely necessary. E.g. in the UK police won't even have firearms on them most of the time unless specifically called to deal with a suspected incident involving weapons, but even if they do, the focus tends to be on de-escalation and waiting the situation out if possible (e.g. someone sat in a car with a gun for about 12 hours a couple of miles from me some months ago; police just got people out of the way and waited until he calmed down, while neighbours talked to the press and whined about why they didn't just shoot him - he had mental issue and a young daughter that presumably was very happy police were calm and collected).

One of my pet examples here was a case in the US were a guy with an axe was shot after charging a police officer. This was a justified killing in that the police officer was under real threat. But she shouldn't have been in danger in the first place - two of them charged in and confronted the man, instead of clearing a perimeter and waiting for backing. In contrast when I called police (UK) over a possible assault near my house a couple of years ago, they sent 8 officers for an incident with no suspected weapons involved.

Bonus points for:

* Reducing sentences for crimes carried out without weapons significantly. E.g. in Norway, using firearms can easily add 10 years to a sentence that might be 5 or less without weapons.

* Treat any use of weapons to stop e.g. a robber as murder if it's not clearly done in self defense.

Point being that criminals needs to see it as worthwhile to not bring a gun. If it is more dangerous for them to do something unarmed than it is to do it armed, and there's little meaningful difference in sentencing, then why wouldn't they go in armed?

The US has created a perverse incentive for criminals to arm themselves to the teeth.

>>WillPo+KT
A more likely culprit: Leaded gasoline [0].

I think the GP is correct to point out the gun thing too. Having lived in a place where guns aren’t as accessible and observing how people live, I’m sure there is some correlation.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesi...

>>noobac+hG
Having an aged population certainly helps. Not a lot of 80 year old gangbangers.

>>vidarh+pW
> gradual escalation

Part of the reason for the quick escalation is that (American) cops are taught things like the Tueller Drill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHYRBNc9r8 that claims that an attacker can close 21 feet in 1500 milliseconds and stab a victim so many times that even a fast ambulance response won't save him from bleeding out.

This idea means the cop has to unholster a pistol as soon as any sign of noncompliance is showm, start firing if a person "reaches for their waist", and empty the magazine because this Olympian attacker won't be stopped by a few bullets.

They just "want to get home to their families" despite the fact that car accidents are deadlier to cops and garbage men have more dangerous jobs.

>>dragon+(OP)
I thought BLM started in response to police violence against Trayvon Martin. Did I miss something?

>>WillPo+tU
It's pretty easy to say when your stats are 10 times worse than a similar developed country and look more like a developing country where warlords are in charge

Or, in US police is at war

Which is equally bad

EDIT: to give more context

If poverty rate in US was worse than in Nigeria, people would say that something went horribly wrong

Homicide rate in US is actually 1.5 times worse than Nigeria and two times worse than Uganda and Congo

>>morgan+QY
The response to that would be that part of the reason you'll see UK police most of the time get people out of the way if they can, keep their distance and call for backup and be patient unless there are people in immediate danger.

Since UK police only exceptionally carry firearms, they have to play things safer. E.g. respond with more people. Keeping greater distance.

But lots of other police forces have - sometimes heavily - armed police with better results because they effectively act on the basis that using their weapon is an absolute last resort, and so you keep your distance if there's a risk they're armed, and call for backup rather than approach etc.

>>drpgq+tY
If people die young they don't get to live enough to become old

>>slim+b01
George Zimmerman was not a police officer

>>_bxg1+t21
George Zimmerman was part of neighborhood watch, what do you think will replace police?

>>noobac+hG
It's not just Italy... the entirety of the European continent sets a great example, even acknowledging the corruption that still takes place.

The question to the US is: how can they become less insular and more open to ways of living that aren't strictly 'American'? You would think the constitution is now set in stone: societal progression is at a complete halt after committing to a few rules 200 or so years ago. And I know that sounds hyperbolic, but even in that time it's still the case that race is a fundamental issue in the US.

>>khc+e31
That's not remotely relevant to what was being asked

>>khc+e31
> what do you think will replace police?

Honestly? My fear is that governments will privatize policing. Because that's the policy that both parties can agree on / take bribes from.

>>ljm+n51
It's honestly even worse than that in some ways, because we were still pretty actively adding to/changing the rules as recently as the late 1960s, and then we just kinda...stopped.

>>anoonm+Ez
Lets start with the actual number of gun related homicides per day 40.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

You are comparing the number of gun deaths in 2 populations and concluding that the difference in total deaths indicates a commensurate increase in dangerous situations faced by officers. Your inclusion of gun suicides makes it extremely difficult to be charitable with your interpretation.

Greater gun suicides correlates with hopelessness and availability of guns not danger to officers and these deaths of despair are literally 60% of the gun deaths you are talking about! Half of the remaining were murdered by someone they know. Most of the remaining 20 not 100 daily murders seemingly random violent murders aren't really random they are criminals murdering other criminals.

Cops aren't overwhelmingly dealing with gang bangers they are overwhelmingly dealing with members of the general population and lots of low level offenders because that is what's out there. That is who they are murdering. They are murdering a broad swath of the population mostly not entirely focused on black people literally because they can get away with it.

Instead of pretending we can't look at the deaths in proper context we ought to analyze the deaths in their proper context. Although this is hard to do in a comment thread your reasoning is in this case worse than nothing because it gives one the false impression that you have a handle on it.

Please stop apologizing for murderers.

>>ljm+n51
It's probably even worse than being insular

I don't blame the people of US, but their cultural system, I do.

Those who criticize or just reports things that don't work in the States are immediately flagged as anti American, it's like an instinct.

Their homicide stats are worse than many developing countries in Africa, four time worse than Canada, six times worse than China, ten times worse than Europe and Asia

Singapore's homicide rate is 30 times lower than in US!

It's really a lot

It's a failure, no matter how one frames it

But it's still very hard to get the general population to confront the numbers

They say you shouldn't shoot the messenger, but even on HN, where people are generally more educated than the average, it's really hard to start a conversation about the causes of this debacle

I lost 20 points of karma in two days because I showed stats about police brutality in US

I hope they'll get it one day, I live in Europe, my country has a lot of problems and there are many things that US does better and we looked at them for decades in search of a solution to our shortcomings

But if there's one thing we do well in EU is how our police handles critical situation, it varies from country to country of course and there are exceptions, Poland is not Spain, but in general it's true

So why not try to listen for once?

I don't have an answer honestly.

>>asjw+9C
Using the pretext of traffic stops as an excuse to search vehicles for small amounts of drugs and then shooting people reaching for their wallets doesn't do much to prevent murders.

Police murders aren't meaningfully correlated with crime prevention.

>>noobac+hG
We have a culture problem, both in the public and in the police. We also have politicians who show no shame in exploiting class warfare to the point of telling people that the deck is stacked against them, wealthy people stole it, and more. Politicians who in one turn tell people to stay at home, don't go to church, or parties because its dangerous to their health, then turn around and say protesting is more important. Who never fail to exploit societal strife as a means to get their name in the press. Out one side of their mouth they claim that the police are out of control while behind closed doors curry favor of the public employee unions who empower the problem.

We have an inner city culture whose music celebrates violence and does not celebrate women but instead treats them like property or worse. We have an inner city culture where schools teach kids to rely on the government and not their parents and the adults. We have an culture where not getting an education can sometimes be seen as a badge of honor and time in jail as the same. We networks with endless broadcasts of cop shows and other crime and violence shows which normalize the environment

Then on top of this you get the police. A group which has been militarized from day one from boot camp, supposedly part of which is to insure healthy cops but rarely is the physical requirement part of a continued job requirement. Who have ranks like any military organization. Who salute each other like any military organization. Who have uniforms , some for daily use, which makes it near impossible to separate them from military members. Who are issued guns for all routes and allowed to keep them on their person off duty. Who are trained by their organization and union that it is them versus the bad guys.

So there is a lot to fix but it starts at the top. Politicians must be held accountable for the mess they create and division they foster. We have to get to the music industry to police itself and tone down the violence of their lyrics and treatment of women. We need a entertainment industry which does not rely on the crime and shows with excessive violence. We need schools to emphasize the good of society and how to improve each student's outcome regardless of situation.

We did not get here overnight. The riots in Detroit back in the 60s should have been understood better but instead politicians capitalized on the fear, drove further wedges among all races, and empowered the police to be more militant. Remember who has controlled politics in most major cities since then and you may understand the lie sold to everyone. They never intended to fix the problem, they intended to feed on it. The political class used it as a guarantee of power.

>>khc+e31
Who would I get to round up trick-or-treaters rather than the cops? no one

>>slim+b01
There was no police violence against Trayvon Martin.

>>dragon+(OP)
I take issue with your framing of the police as criminals because it misses the point; the police are not criminals, the law and the legal establishment fully supports their actions. Those actions are institutionally racist as they are intended to be. There are no bad apples here, it's the barrel that is rotten.

>>anoonm+Ez
all the european countries have strong medical systems that don't let anyone through the cracks. Many also don't have prison systems like we have but are more focused on rehabilitation, and the 'why' people commit crimes. Sure murderers/rapists lock up, but non-violent people reward them for NOT using violence to commit a crime w/ house arrest, community service, and fines.

If we had guaranteed medical, we'd have a check on mental health. Probably the #1 cause of crimes in America is poor mental health and the stress of living in America.

>>flarg+Cj1
On the contrary. Many of these actions are illegal, sometimes even unconstitutional. There may be other laws that make it difficult, or impossible to actually enforce laws against police brutality, but that doesn't change the fact that police officers are breaking the law.

>>WillPo+KT
All of those are multiple times higher than Italy. There are other factors that cause decade-level differences in homicide rate, but if you want to bring the baseline homicide rate down, you could do worse than looking at access to guns.

>>thayne+2s1
'Criminals' is better be read as enemies or threats. It's used as a catch-all term for people who would do you and your loved ones harm without remorse.

If the tables were turned and the police were no longer the servants of the white community, how might that look?

Patrol cars driving around suburbs at night blasting sirens then arresting people who came out to complain. Harassing middle class white dads mowing their lawns by telling them to stop and go inside, then escalating into one-sided physical altercations requiring reinforcements. Ticketing mom groups for loitering and trespassing for congregating to chat on sidewalks with baby strollers on front of their homes, or threatening them with CPS. Breaking into homes and shooting pets and family members of kids who brought home pot, or their neighbors if they show up at the wrong house.

Who would these people call to complain to if no one else cared? How would these communities look after years of being afraid? Of having to accept that their lives were forfeit and losing loved ones to the police was just a fact of life?

Unfortunately, we already know.

>>flarg+Cj1
> There are no bad apples here

I don't understand. You're saying that individual police members are not at fault for their actions? That the police institution is rotten (barrel) but stops at the individual officer (apple)?

I 100% agree that the barrel is rotten, but there are plenty of bad individuals as a result of the barrel being rotten for so long.

A way to test this, change the 'barrel' and see which 'apples' stick around. i.e. if all apples are good changing the barrel doesn't result in difference in apples just the apples' actions.

We're already seeing #bluflu, walk outs, resignations because in some specific areas of the country, the barrel is being changed out piece by piece.

I disagree that apples are not bad. Lots of them are. It'll be a painful transition, but it will be one for better if we can keep it up.

>>morgan+QY
The video you quoted clearly articulates the preference for getting out of the way of the attacker, keeping the distance and avoiding the direct confrontation. Unholstering the pistol does not imply an indiscriminate shooting. The video is suggesting a reasonable course of action in an emergency situation.

>>irjust+nV1
No, the parent is saying that calling police criminals masks the fundamental twisted nature of the justice system. Judging by their words, they condemn the police as criminals, but also condemn a 'justice' system that allows their deeds to remain legal. The barrel is rotten, the apples are rotten, so let's throw it all out and try again, is how I interpret their statement.

>>korijn+FO
I am not a criminal. Nor a police officer. Why should I get rid of my gun?

>>arbitr+Qb2
I mean you and I are saying the same thing it sounds like, but that sounds decidedly different than what the comment I was replying to was saying.

>>washad+bI1
I think we know the answer. Look at the response to the opioid crisis versus the “war on drugs”.

>>ljm+n51
A little off-topic but I thought the meta was you are more likely to be beaten up/tortured by police while in custody in Europe/Asia as opposed to while in custody in the US? I have no experience in these things. Have I misunderstood this?

>>mcny+cr2
That's false as well.

Look at a Norway prison

Now take a look at an American one

>>khc+e31
> what do you think will replace police

A variety of domain-specialized community services organizations, many of which will have enforcement components, some armed, and probably at least one of which is investigatory/enforcement focussed, but no single monolithic paramilitary organization.

Not a neighborhood watch, but more like how federal law enforcement, and despite the fact that “state police” organizations do exist, that of most states, is organized.

>>michae+4g1
I agree with everything you said and I don't feel like our comments are in dispute- I don't think cops are killing people because we have so much murder and suicide, I think that we have a violent and gun obsessed country, and that shows itself through high levels of police violence, murder, and suicide.

Edit: as such, I would remove the "because of" part of the last sentence of my previous comment, and leave the "strongly related to". My bad.

>>thayne+2s1
Technically illegal but still legally protected. It's the hypocrisy of law enforcement.

>>irjust+nV1
Of course individual police officers are at fault, but it's also the entire system that is rotten. The system creates these rotten police officers, encourages and protects them, and allowed them to spread the rot.

>>irjust+nV1
You're driving the metapthor too far, I honestly don't get your point. Are you're saying we shouldn't touch the institution of police and just replace the individual police members?

To my knowledge, that is what has been done until now - and it evidently didn't work.

>>s1arti+2U
Thank you.

>>shitgo+9c2
I'm not a criminal (for the most part[0]). Nor am I a police officer. Why should I have a gun?

[0] WTF is a "criminal" anyways? I use illegal substances sometimes. I drive above the speed limit (like everyone else does) most of the time. Back when I played poker on US sites I didn't pay taxes on my winnings even though I should have. I can think of a ton of examples where I simply do not follow the law and so according to the definition of the word I am a criminal.

>>chines+Iu2
> Look at a Norway prison

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I understand that Scandinavian countries do a lot of things better. I also understand that prisons are terrible in the US and jails are worse still.

However, from stories I've heard about "interrogation techniques"...

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https:/...

My understanding is that it is unlawful to torture (physically, mentally, ...) into answering questions and/or confessing to any crime in the US and you have a right to remain silent (in theory at least) in police custody. How well is enforced in other countries?

From what I understand, local police (talking about custody, not jail or prison) in the US will sometimes use torture techniques like isolation or suicide watch and will beat suspects when they get a chance (moving between rooms or whatever) but this is uncommon.

>>mcny+eN3
It's enforced better than in the US, on many levels.

First, they can't really arrest you without motiv, they can't even detain you without motiv.

Second: you can confront a police officer in EU, they won't shoot you or handcuff you, unless you pose a real danger to public safety.

I had a fight with one of them three months ago, he almost ran over me with his bike and when I confronted him he removed his jacket and told he was a police officer. I said "you are two times wrong then" He yelled at me he was going to bring me in, I said "no way" and meanwhile people gathered around me and started saying to the police officer he was abusing his powers, that they had seen what he'd done with his bike and where ready to testify against him, if he didn't apologize.

He went away.

That's almost impossible in the US, where officers are trained to respond physically to basically anything that they consider a threat.

Stefano Cucchi is a very peculiar case he wasn't lawfully tortured, he was killed by the police and then they tried to cover it up.

I went to many events in support of his cause.

After years of trial the officers have been condemned and many high ranking officers asked for forgiveness to Stefano's sister, Ilaria, a great woman who stood alone against the injustice her brother faced.

But it's been a very popular case all over the news, for years, there have been a few others in Italy, but the point is it is unlawful and you can count them on the fingers of one hand.

The real problem in Italy is that it takes decades to get a final judgement.

And right now the right wing parties, that also support Trump, that wants free guns for everybody like in the US.

Anyway, torture is a crime in Italy and it is considerd an aggravating factor if it is committed by an officer.

>>chines+HR3
> Anyway, torture is a crime in Italy and it is considerd an aggravating factor if it is committed by an officer.

Thank you. I appreciate your answering my questions and not assuming I am asking rhetorical questions (something I am not very good at yet). I didn't know about the case and saw it when I googled for any case.

> And right now the right wing parties, that also support Trump, that wants free guns for everybody like in the US.

I don't know for sure as I am not friends with many 45 supporters but my understanding is the "base" is more interested in guns for everyone more than 45 himself. Not that it matters in the larger scheme but just thought I'd share my understanding.

>>Stavro+ZV
You can't say "but guns stayed the same and crime both increased and decreased at points, which means that guns don't affect crime".

I didn't say they don't affect crime, but if crime spikes, then drops then spikes, while gun ownership remains steady, then it is a piece of evidence that crime is largely driven by something other than the quantity of guns.

>>WillPo+hI4
How? The fact that you can stop eating omelettes and still have the same amount of eggs in your fridge doesn't make you can make omelettes without eggs.

>>spurgu+1L3
In the context of the above discussion, "criminal" is the person who is using the gun for criminal activities, i.e. murder, extortion, etc. I can see the arguments that such criminals should not be in possession of a firearm. I can also see arguments that power-hungry cops should not be in possession of a firearm either. But as a private citizen, who is neither, why should I surrender a gun? I am not a threat to anyone.

Why should you have a gun? It is a personal preference. Like art or poetry. You are free to want whatever you want. If you do not like/want guns, please do not have them. But, please do not impose your preferences on others.

>>xg15+u03
> You're driving the metapthor too far

I'm just trying to understand what the parent comment said because I honestly am confused.

>>WillPo+KT
You're saying homicides have historically varied in the US by a factor of 2, and this variation cannot be correlated with notable changes in gun availability. Previous comments mentioned a factor of 10 difference in homicides compared to countries in Europe, arguably with the most notable explanatory correlation being gun availability. If the only crimes we are talking about are homicides, then there does seem to be a pretty good case.

Some people thrive on the empowerment, liberty and responsibility associated with these incredible death machines. But that's no reason to mistreat the data. For instance, the ratio associated with other death machines like cars, which have somewhat similar availability across the pond between US and Europe, is a more reasonable factor of 2/3.