zlacker

[parent] [thread] 35 comments
1. throwa+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-20 20:29:50
> Civil rights and privacy advocates have raised concerns about how the feature streamlined the reporting of suspicions about minor offenses, encouraging police to follow up on what would have otherwise been casual observations on social media.

Why is this a problem? Minor offenses are still offenses and they can often be very frustrating and problematic. They still deserve police attention where they constitute a violation of the law. Streamlining the process is a positive not negative, and the framing here just seems like these activist groups don’t want people to be held accountable.

replies(8): >>Peteri+N >>alista+Y >>samatm+b1 >>pooper+Q1 >>newacc+02 >>ponker+k2 >>TheSpi+K6 >>mindsl+28
2. Peteri+N[view] [source] 2020-06-20 20:35:43
>>throwa+(OP)
I believe that this results in this being used as a tool of harassment against people who are less popular in the neighbourhood for arbitrary - sometimes discriminatory - reasons.
3. alista+Y[view] [source] 2020-06-20 20:36:32
>>throwa+(OP)
Because on Nextdoor, walking down the street while black in the wrong neighborhood is a minor offense. That site is a complete cesspool.
4. samatm+b1[view] [source] 2020-06-20 20:38:08
>>throwa+(OP)
You are of course correct about minor offenses.

I suggest you show the courage of your convictions, and do a few hour's research on exactly how much is illegal at present.

Then, turn yourself in for only the Federal crimes you've committed in the past year.

We'll never see you again, of course, but it's a small price to pay.

replies(2): >>TheSpi+i7 >>thrwaw+Mi
5. pooper+Q1[view] [source] 2020-06-20 20:43:49
>>throwa+(OP)
>Why is this a problem? Minor offenses are still offenses and they can often be very frustrating and problematic. They still deserve police attention where they constitute a violation of the law. Streamlining the process is a positive not negative, and the framing here just seems like these activist groups don’t want people to be held accountable.

Be careful of what you wish for. You might wish to look at your local municipal/county/parish/state laws. I likely break dozens of laws/ordinances every day and I'm very positive you do as well, without even knowing it.

I am very saddened that I have to spell this out. I don't know whether you use NextDoor, throwawaysea. Would you be willing to post this under your real name in NextDoor and share the link here?

replies(3): >>SilasX+74 >>Kiro+87 >>duskwu+i9
6. newacc+02[view] [source] 2020-06-20 20:44:42
>>throwa+(OP)
> Minor offenses are still offenses

The problem, as is always the case, is that "minor offenses" are not equitably enforced.

So if the local white kids are hanging out at the corner of the park smoking weed, no one cares. No one posts to Nextdoor. The police don't show up. But four young hispanic men walking through the same white neighborhood (to get to a job, say) will freak someone out and a busybody post to nextdoor will end up getting them stopped. Oh, and it turns out that one of them has weed in his pocket. There's your "minor offense". It's still an offense, right? It deserves police attention?

You're looking at this with a microscope. No one is saying don't enforce boring laws. People are saying do it fairly. Nattering busybodies on Nextdoor are the opposite of fair.

replies(1): >>jquery+kd
7. ponker+k2[view] [source] 2020-06-20 20:47:15
>>throwa+(OP)
Because what is an “offense” is designed to capture a certain kind of person who harms the public but leaves the other, much more harmful kind, untouched. What is the harm caused by stealing a package off a doorstep compared to creating a Facebook ad for oversexualized garments targeting young girls? Compared to marketing addictive pharmaceuticals to people who do not need them? Compared to issuing a fraudulent AAA rating on a mortgage backed security and selling it to a pension fund? Which gets the police involved?
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8. SilasX+74[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:01:10
>>pooper+Q1
>I likely break dozens of laws/ordinances every day and I'm very positive you do as well, without even knowing it.

Okay but then isn't that the real problem? Of not regularly weeding out laws against things that people don't really feel need to be banned? It's kind of clumsy to take the approach of, "We're going to keep dubious laws on the books, and also have ultra-random, haphazard enforcement of all laws regardless of how merited."

replies(4): >>arrrg+C5 >>notato+Q5 >>baddox+a6 >>TheSpi+j6
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9. arrrg+C5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:15:19
>>SilasX+74
Both are problems.

People who abuse that situation and useless laws on the books.

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10. notato+Q5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:17:15
>>SilasX+74
yes, that is a real problem and it should be solved. but in the absence of a solution to that problem, shutting down tools that make it easy to take advantage of that problem to be racist and/or annoying is a decent starting point.
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11. baddox+a6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:20:45
>>SilasX+74
The problem is that when everyone is guilty of something, the government can pick and choose who it punishes, through prosecutorial discretion, selective policing, and other means.
replies(1): >>cutemo+Th
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12. TheSpi+j6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:21:37
>>SilasX+74
We can do both.

Non-enforcement of bollocks laws is a feature.

Most people will not ever interact with law enforcement over bollocks laws.

There will always be bollocks laws.

Your wider point stands though, we should do some pruning, but that takes time, whereas non-enforcement is instantaneous.

Do both.

replies(2): >>SilasX+v7 >>syshum+9q
13. TheSpi+K6[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:24:05
>>throwa+(OP)
The problem isn’t minor offences as such.

It’s the reporting of the suspicion.

I don’t need my neighbour calling the police on the suspicious of $minor_offence.

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14. Kiro+87[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:27:42
>>pooper+Q1
> I likely break dozens of laws/ordinances every day and I'm very positive you do as well, without even knowing it.

Any examples?

replies(2): >>jes+N7 >>cgrisw+4p
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15. TheSpi+i7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:28:37
>>samatm+b1
This would be a fun way to antagonise the police.

Flash mob style, waiting in line, no! camping out for days waiting in line, not to buy tickets to the next reiteration of $sameoldstorybutwithmorelensflare, but to turn yourself in with video evidence of jaywalking or cycling without a helmet.

replies(1): >>serf+na
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16. SilasX+v7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:30:35
>>TheSpi+j6
Yeah, but "bollocks" is a four-letter word (metaphorically) -- the feature doesn't first establish consensus on what laws are bollocks. What you call a bollocks law, I might call "reasonable one that ensures people aren't screaming outside my window at 1am".
replies(1): >>jquery+pc
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17. jes+N7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:31:55
>>Kiro+87
There is a book, "Three Felonies a Day" that may interest you. The suggestion is that essentially all of us are committing at least three felonies a day. I have not tried to verify the claims made in the book.
replies(2): >>Kiro+Ia >>j88439+Kr
18. mindsl+28[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:34:26
>>throwa+(OP)
Police departments are failing to arrest murderers even when there is ample evidence. Let's focus on the felonies until they can get those right.
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19. duskwu+i9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:44:11
>>pooper+Q1
> I don't know whether you use NextDoor, throwawaysea. Would you be willing to post this under your real name in NextDoor and share the link here?

That sounds to me rather like you're saying "tell us your real name or you're lying", which seems a rather specious (and hostile) argument.

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20. serf+na[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:52:54
>>TheSpi+i7
there is a bit by the comedian Doug Stanhope about how the time of the 'occupy wallstreet' group of people would have been better spent by sitting within the lobbies of large banking institutions and applying for superfluous loans that would be known to be denied before hand, taking advantage of the laws in place that disallow discrimination with regards to loan applications.

His example is something like 'Yes, I came here to apply for a loan of a billion dollars for an ant farm, yes I would like a complimentary coffee.'

It's an entertaining idea.

replies(1): >>jacque+vb
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21. Kiro+Ia[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:55:42
>>jes+N7
Thanks. I have a hard time finding concrete examples from the book but I get the impression that it's partly due to the US judicial system (I'm not from the US). Would be nice to see the top felonies people unknowingly commit on a daily basis.

It's by the way really annoying that my question gets downvoted by zealous users who think I'm trying to make some kind of point when I was just genuinely interested. This site feels like a big aggressive battlefield nowadays, where everyone is just arguing and no-one is discussing like normal curious human beings.

replies(1): >>cutemo+ej
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22. jacque+vb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:01:47
>>serf+na
That's actually an excellent idea and fairly easy to put into practice. Most of those processes don't scale at all and rely on self pre-selection and evaluation. The fact that NINJA applicants ever stood a chance was a good indication that something was terribly wrong.
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23. jquery+pc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:09:28
>>SilasX+v7
You’re absolutely right, I don’t understand why you’re being downvoted.
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24. jquery+kd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:15:27
>>newacc+02
> Nattering busybodies on Nextdoor

What is more fair than locals choosing which stuff is bothering them?

replies(1): >>joshua+Lf
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25. joshua+Lf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:34:15
>>jquery+kd
When the things bothering them are "having black neighbors", I'd say most other systems are more fair.
replies(1): >>jquery+tz
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26. cutemo+Th[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:54:16
>>baddox+a6
So the police and government want to keep the broken laws
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27. thrwaw+Mi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:03:24
>>samatm+b1
You can both disagree with petty laws for minor violations and still want prohibitions against theft or public disturbances enforced in your neighborhood.
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28. cutemo+ej[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:08:11
>>Kiro+Ia
> zealous users who think I'm trying to make some kind of point when I was just genuinely interested.

I think that's how life and a fraction of the people in a large group tend to be everywhere.

And sometimes can be good to try to guess how others will interpret one's intentions, and write sth to sort out misunderstandings before they happen

But not always easy to guess / remember to

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29. cgrisw+4p[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:13:48
>>Kiro+87
Example: It’s a felony federal crime to throw away someone else’s mail. That includes mail that is addressed to a previous occupant that was delivered to your home (unless it says “or current resident” or similar). Penalties are up to five years in jail and fines.
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30. syshum+9q[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:28:02
>>TheSpi+j6
>>Most people will not ever interact with law enforcement over bollocks laws.

That is actually a very bad thing, and once the people in power abuse

If few people encounter "bollocks" laws then there is no outrage over their enforcement, therefore if you piss off the wrong person in government suddenly they go over your life with a fine tooth comb and you have 100 "bollocks" charges and your life is ruined but since you are just one person there is no so speak out for you.

>There will always be bollocks laws.

That is a bollocks position and one that can be solved (in part) with mandatory sunset of all laws. Every Law, Regulation, and policy should have to be affirmed by the legislature at minimum every 20 years if not more often. If not is ceases to exists

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31. j88439+Kr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:51:20
>>jes+N7
From what I can tell googling around, there's no support provided for the provocative "three felonies a day" claim.

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/22530/does-the-...

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32. jquery+tz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 02:22:13
>>joshua+Lf
You’re assuming the locals are “bad people” and making decisions on their behalf, then?
replies(2): >>joshua+CC >>int_19+KU
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33. joshua+CC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:05:44
>>jquery+tz
I'm assigning no blame. I'm giving an example of the kind of behavior that ultimately was encouraged by ND.
replies(1): >>jquery+Hm2
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34. int_19+KU[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 07:47:01
>>jquery+tz
If they're bothered by their black neighbors, then yes, of course they are.
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35. jquery+Hm2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 23:13:16
>>joshua+CC
How was ND encouraging it?
replies(1): >>joshua+pn2
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36. joshua+pn2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 23:24:28
>>jquery+Hm2
By offering this very low friction way of contacting the police, you end up enabling people to reach out to the police for minor inconveniences that they wouldn't otherwise have.

There may be noble outcomes from this, but there are also clearly negative ones. Once again, I'm not claiming it was ever ND's intent to do this. Just that in practice the design of the system enabled and tacitly encouraged these behaviors.

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