zlacker

[parent] [thread] 3 comments
1. zepto+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-15 14:15:08
I am completely in support of the idea that these videos show unnecessary police brutality, I have no argument with the message here.

I just want to answer your question about shooting to kill vs incapacitate.

The first part of the answer is that nobody should shoot anyone who they don’t reasonably believe is trying to kill them. This applies to citizens or police. Generally it is the standard applied in citizen self-defense scenarios.

The second part is that shooting isn’t that easy or effective. Certainly not how it appears in the movies. It is hard to hit a 6” moving target in a stressful situation, even at relatively close range, and would require training and practice that simply isn’t available to cops. Added to this, there is no reliable place to shoot someone that will incapacitate them without also being likely to kill them. Surprisingly many people will continue to fight after being shot, so even if the cop had the ability to ‘shoot them in the leg’, for example, they would still be at risk of being killed by an aggressive adversary.

In addition, any responsible use of firearms has to take into account the environment. Handgun bullets are still lethal hundreds of meters from where they are fired. When cops miss their targets, bullets can and do kill bystanders, or ricochet or fragment and cause injury to people not even in the line of fire.

So the guidance to anyone using a gun in self defense is generally to shoot for the ‘center of mass’. This is primary because hitting the central nervous system or vital organs is the only reliable way to stop someone, but also because it’s impractical and unsafe to aim anywhere else.

None of this is meant to justify police shootings. Quite the opposite. I am just explaining why every gun use is necessarily a lethal encounter.

If a politician suggests “shooting them in the leg”, the one thing you can be certain of is that they are completely incompetent on this topic, and can not be trusted to improve matters.

replies(1): >>saiya-+H1
2. saiya-+H1[view] [source] 2020-06-15 14:24:32
>>zepto+(OP)
> would require training and practice that simply isn’t available to cops

Generally agree apart from this - if cops don't have training to be expert (or at least above-average good) shooters, then that's a failure. We've read tons of articles about militarization of US police. If they have budget for armored vehicles, for sure they have budget for (very cheap but quality basic) 9mm ammunition for practice.

replies(2): >>tartor+v7 >>zepto+SV
◧◩
3. tartor+v7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 15:02:30
>>saiya-+H1
Exactly. They apply a double standard when they need it. They got so stubborn about it up until it got to this point. Now they will loose a lot of their perks. Good! Better learn from this

In Long Island a higher ranked cop would retire after 20 years with a pension of 500k, and in Long Island they really don’t do anything. While that, a new recruit in the Bronx would start at salary of 40k with poor training and lots of headaches. Seems like we need to reform the police!

Discussions about these things just started popping up on NPR and other sources. They brought it up on themselves.

◧◩
4. zepto+SV[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:29:44
>>saiya-+H1
There are good reasons for police to receive a lot more firearms training and practice than they do, but no amount of training will change the need for them to shoot to ‘kill’.

Even the best handgun shooters in the world are unlikely either to be reliably be able to shoot to incapacitate.

It just isn’t a capacity that handguns have in realistic use cases.

The primary reason police need more training with firearms is so that they become less afraid of them and more generally competent and confident.

That will give them more capacity to exercise better judgement in when they actually need to shoot.

Of course it depends a lot on the training and whether it is aimed at increasing or reducing their fear levels.

[go to top]