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1. luckyl+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-15 09:35:34
> Also I've seen it before here not many year ago with comments like "can only compare US to Brazil not any Europen country"

Can you explain why you feel that's terribly unfair? I don't know why somebody would pick Brazil specifically, but you might easily say "compare the US to countries with a similar income inequality". Take the gini coefficient for simplicity [1] and compare the US to Côte d'Ivoire, Argentina, Haiti, and Malaysia or Mexico, Madagascar, El Salvador, and Rwanda, depending on whether you take the CIA's numbers or the World Bank's. If you look at the list, you'll see that the European countries are closer together and in a different area of the list, the US isn't in their group.

Wouldn't that be a better indicator for "similar countries" than average internet speed or NATO membership status?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

replies(2): >>harry8+k1 >>jpttsn+D6
2. harry8+k1[view] [source] 2020-06-15 09:49:21
>>luckyl+(OP)
The rationale for Brazil was explicitly the same one in the dead comment.

But yeah, that's pretty radical what you're saying too. Maybe it's fair that you should only compare the richest nation on earth with much poorer developing nations with a short track record of democracy. Not sure I'd agree.

replies(1): >>luckyl+R2
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3. luckyl+R2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 10:03:50
>>harry8+k1
> Not sure I'd agree.

Why? Income inequality is correlated with crime rate, why wouldn't you use that to find comparable countries? Seems useful to me, similarly to comparing diabetes rates in countries with similar levels of obesity, not based on average hair color or amount of trees per square mile.

> the richest nation on earth

You'll need to define what "richest" means, I guess. The highest GDP? Largest military spending? Does that mean a lot to somebody that is poor in the US? Would that person possibly be better off in a European country with public health insurance, a vast social safety net, high welfare etc, even though it's not "the richest country on earth" by your standards?

replies(1): >>harry8+dg
4. jpttsn+D6[view] [source] 2020-06-15 10:40:51
>>luckyl+(OP)
Nations also interact, muddying the “compare” waters further.

Where I live, we drive cars, but we don’t fight the overseas oil wars. We’ve outsourced all that brutality to the US. That lets us smugly reap the benefits and point fingers at Americans for the violent, backwards, gun-toting culture.

replies(1): >>luckyl+mc
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5. luckyl+mc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 11:39:53
>>jpttsn+D6
I don't know that the US would need to have a violent society to be a military super power. China is on its way, and so far at least they seem to have managed to avoid that, so maybe those things are not related.
replies(1): >>jpttsn+je
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6. jpttsn+je[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 11:58:10
>>luckyl+mc
The point is that the study participants interact; it’s misleading to compare nations by the stat. The extent to which China is a military superpower interplays with other participants.
replies(1): >>luckyl+Rg
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7. harry8+dg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 12:16:48
>>luckyl+R2
The USA can /afford/ to be better. Comparison with other wealthy nations seems to me to be the right benchmark.

I mean the richest nation on earth bar none. The amount of wealth in the nation. Literally that. The USA cannot plead poverty as an excuse for why anything is worse there than any other nation. Do you see it now?

replies(1): >>luckyl+zh
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8. luckyl+Rg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 12:22:43
>>jpttsn+je
> The point is that the study participants interact; it’s misleading to compare nations by the stat.

So what though? Do European countries like the UK (that are usually with the US when it's time to bomb somebody in the Middle East) outsource their domestic violence?

Really, you need to provide some evidence for "we have less crime, less murders, less police violence because the US has more". "The US has more income inequality because it has to fight wars for the European countries" doesn't follow either, so please don't.

replies(1): >>jpttsn+Km
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9. luckyl+zh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 12:29:50
>>harry8+dg
Put like that, I agree. If the US fundamentally changed their culture towards being less individualist and more collectivist, a lot of things would change with it.

I don't think US-citizens by and large want that change bad enough to accept restrictions upon their freedoms and an end to low taxes, European-level wealth redistribution does not seem to be popular in the US. I suppose they'd like the result without doing it. Unfortunately that's like wanting to be great at tennis without wanting to put in the training: understandable, but not happening.

replies(1): >>harry8+Ej
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10. harry8+Ej[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 12:49:20
>>luckyl+zh
I'm not suggesting there is one and only one solution to any given problem at all. That's the scoreboard. How does the USA do compared to other rich countries with long established democracies. My read on it is most americans want to be first on that scoreboard. Badly want it. Most americans can't and don't believe how badly they're going in certain benchmarks. These are the benchmarks. This is the story. Americans can fix it, of this I have no doubt. I'm sure that it can be fixed without embracing socialism in /any/ way if that's how americans choose to go. All they need to do is say "Here is the scoreboard - let's get fixed. Let's try something and if that doesn't work let's try something else and not rest until we get it done in a way that works with our views as Americans and preserves all the stuff we hold dear."

I have no doubt that American can-do and talent will get it done.

None.

Just decide what it is, what the scoreboard looks like and get it done as Americans the American way.

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11. jpttsn+Km[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 13:10:23
>>luckyl+Rg
Yes, my belief is that 1) nations outsource violence to the superpower 2) the superpower’s military prowess comes at the cost of a warlike culture at home.

Your belief is (?) that the US aggregate violence/whatever is in no meaningful way confounded with the levels you measure in (say) EU nations: any confounding is small enough to make no difference?

We have a population of 200 (nations) of very diverse size and age, all related by historic and present competition and cooperation. Is there any fair shot at comparing apples to apples?

What sort of “evidence” would you reasonably concede to?

replies(1): >>luckyl+Ms
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12. luckyl+Ms[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 13:51:59
>>jpttsn+Km
> Yes, my belief is that 1) nations outsource violence to the superpower 2) the superpower’s military prowess comes at the cost of a warlike culture at home.

But that only works for super powers? Why is there no trend visible for countries like Switzerland who are traditionally neutral and never fight wars with neighboring countries like France who or Germany who have a larger active military, do engage in NATO wars etc? Why aren't the Chinese shooting each other on a similar scale? Why weren't the Germans during the early 20th century when they were very militaristic? Why were the US already at similar levels in the first half of the 20th century, before becoming a global super power that others may have "outsourced" their wars to?

> What sort of “evidence” would you reasonably concede to?

Minimum requirements: has some sort of rule that allows predictions that can be falsified other than "it's only true in this super specific narrow case of the USA in last 5 decades of human history, but not in any other place or during any other time".

It feels like looking for super complicated reasons that require American Exceptionalism (as in "does not apply to any other country") to explain something that is explained by well-studied phenomena that do not require US citizens to function fundamentally different than other humans in other places or other times.

replies(1): >>jpttsn+SF
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13. jpttsn+SF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 15:11:10
>>luckyl+Ms
My overarching point here is that it’s pointless to debate Switzerland v Germany as if they exist in some sort of vacuum without interaction. Without Germany, there is no Switzerland. Without Switzerland, there is not Germany.

A theory where every nation is a data point can’t get you anywhere. All the nations interact meaning we should reason about the system as a whole.

I say something about a nation, you expect me to back it up with other nations. But there are very few data points, and they are interconnected, and the problem has a huge number of dimensions.

It’s like I claim opposable thumbs are good for tool making and you ask me to show five other body parts where that applies.

replies(1): >>luckyl+NK
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14. luckyl+NK[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 15:32:33
>>jpttsn+SF
> I say something about a nation, you expect me to back it up with other nations. But there are very few data points, and they are interconnected, and the problem has a huge number of dimensions.

Sure, but there's little/nothing that suggests the effect you speculate about, it seems to have no parallel in history although empires have existed before, there are counter examples ... so it seems not too likely that that is the cause. Of course, no two days are the same, no two countries are the same and no two countries are even the same with regard to their not-same-ness on two different days, but countries and cultures move slow enough, and countries and humans are similar enough that we'd see such obvious and large patterns, I believe.

On the other hand, we have other explanations that have supporting evidence, apply to multiple situations etc, so they seem more likely. When you present a new theory, claim that it cannot be falsified because no two countries are exactly the same (and therefore no relationships between countries can be the same), I think you should offer some evidence to support that theory instead of asking others to just accept it.

replies(1): >>jpttsn+Wo1
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15. jpttsn+Wo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:14:07
>>luckyl+NK
Thought provoking, thanks.

I’m not asking you to accept anything: I don’t evangelize. In particular I have no theory that generalizes over nations. It seems very limiting. Like ignoring a mechanism I see work in my apartment because it doesn’t hold true for buildings writ large.

Edit: Probably shouldn’t have written “the superpower” posts ago because that makes it sound like a general claim.

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