zlacker

[return to "George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter"]
1. DeonPe+ek[view] [source] 2020-06-15 04:40:00
>>dtagam+(OP)
The fact that is even possible is insane. Imagine there being over 700 videos of pilots messing up in one month, 700 crane operator mishaps in a month, 700+ food poising by a chain in a month. The also imagine you believe there's no problem.

This is Ba Sing Se levels of delusion for some people.

◧◩
2. devcpp+3n[view] [source] 2020-06-15 05:17:47
>>DeonPe+ek
To be fair you are comparing an adversarial job with a cooperative one. A crane operator won't feel unsafe, or confronted by someone he calls hostile. This is no excuse whatsoever for the multitude of outraging problems in the system, but the comparison isn't straightforward.
◧◩◪
3. camill+Pt[view] [source] 2020-06-15 06:40:06
>>devcpp+3n
So just compare It to police officers in other Western countries...
◧◩◪◨
4. harry8+IC[view] [source] 2020-06-15 08:06:56
>>camill+Pt
There's a dead comment in reply to this. I disagree with it as strongly as anything I've seen on HN. I think it racist. I don't think it should be hidden. It highlights a mentality that needs to be known about and considered including any possible sensible response to it.

Also I've seen it before here not many year ago with comments like "can only compare US to Brazil not any Europen country"

To what extent do these, not uncommon - even here, sets of beliefs contribute to the problems of violence in policing? Not something that seems to me like a good idea to pretend does not exist or is minor or fringe.

◧◩◪◨⬒
5. luckyl+NK[view] [source] 2020-06-15 09:35:34
>>harry8+IC
> Also I've seen it before here not many year ago with comments like "can only compare US to Brazil not any Europen country"

Can you explain why you feel that's terribly unfair? I don't know why somebody would pick Brazil specifically, but you might easily say "compare the US to countries with a similar income inequality". Take the gini coefficient for simplicity [1] and compare the US to Côte d'Ivoire, Argentina, Haiti, and Malaysia or Mexico, Madagascar, El Salvador, and Rwanda, depending on whether you take the CIA's numbers or the World Bank's. If you look at the list, you'll see that the European countries are closer together and in a different area of the list, the US isn't in their group.

Wouldn't that be a better indicator for "similar countries" than average internet speed or NATO membership status?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
6. jpttsn+qR[view] [source] 2020-06-15 10:40:51
>>luckyl+NK
Nations also interact, muddying the “compare” waters further.

Where I live, we drive cars, but we don’t fight the overseas oil wars. We’ve outsourced all that brutality to the US. That lets us smugly reap the benefits and point fingers at Americans for the violent, backwards, gun-toting culture.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
7. luckyl+9X[view] [source] 2020-06-15 11:39:53
>>jpttsn+qR
I don't know that the US would need to have a violent society to be a military super power. China is on its way, and so far at least they seem to have managed to avoid that, so maybe those things are not related.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
8. jpttsn+6Z[view] [source] 2020-06-15 11:58:10
>>luckyl+9X
The point is that the study participants interact; it’s misleading to compare nations by the stat. The extent to which China is a military superpower interplays with other participants.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
9. luckyl+E11[view] [source] 2020-06-15 12:22:43
>>jpttsn+6Z
> The point is that the study participants interact; it’s misleading to compare nations by the stat.

So what though? Do European countries like the UK (that are usually with the US when it's time to bomb somebody in the Middle East) outsource their domestic violence?

Really, you need to provide some evidence for "we have less crime, less murders, less police violence because the US has more". "The US has more income inequality because it has to fight wars for the European countries" doesn't follow either, so please don't.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦
10. jpttsn+x71[view] [source] 2020-06-15 13:10:23
>>luckyl+E11
Yes, my belief is that 1) nations outsource violence to the superpower 2) the superpower’s military prowess comes at the cost of a warlike culture at home.

Your belief is (?) that the US aggregate violence/whatever is in no meaningful way confounded with the levels you measure in (say) EU nations: any confounding is small enough to make no difference?

We have a population of 200 (nations) of very diverse size and age, all related by historic and present competition and cooperation. Is there any fair shot at comparing apples to apples?

What sort of “evidence” would you reasonably concede to?

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧
11. luckyl+zd1[view] [source] 2020-06-15 13:51:59
>>jpttsn+x71
> Yes, my belief is that 1) nations outsource violence to the superpower 2) the superpower’s military prowess comes at the cost of a warlike culture at home.

But that only works for super powers? Why is there no trend visible for countries like Switzerland who are traditionally neutral and never fight wars with neighboring countries like France who or Germany who have a larger active military, do engage in NATO wars etc? Why aren't the Chinese shooting each other on a similar scale? Why weren't the Germans during the early 20th century when they were very militaristic? Why were the US already at similar levels in the first half of the 20th century, before becoming a global super power that others may have "outsourced" their wars to?

> What sort of “evidence” would you reasonably concede to?

Minimum requirements: has some sort of rule that allows predictions that can be falsified other than "it's only true in this super specific narrow case of the USA in last 5 decades of human history, but not in any other place or during any other time".

It feels like looking for super complicated reasons that require American Exceptionalism (as in "does not apply to any other country") to explain something that is explained by well-studied phenomena that do not require US citizens to function fundamentally different than other humans in other places or other times.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨
12. jpttsn+Fq1[view] [source] 2020-06-15 15:11:10
>>luckyl+zd1
My overarching point here is that it’s pointless to debate Switzerland v Germany as if they exist in some sort of vacuum without interaction. Without Germany, there is no Switzerland. Without Switzerland, there is not Germany.

A theory where every nation is a data point can’t get you anywhere. All the nations interact meaning we should reason about the system as a whole.

I say something about a nation, you expect me to back it up with other nations. But there are very few data points, and they are interconnected, and the problem has a huge number of dimensions.

It’s like I claim opposable thumbs are good for tool making and you ask me to show five other body parts where that applies.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨◲
13. luckyl+Av1[view] [source] 2020-06-15 15:32:33
>>jpttsn+Fq1
> I say something about a nation, you expect me to back it up with other nations. But there are very few data points, and they are interconnected, and the problem has a huge number of dimensions.

Sure, but there's little/nothing that suggests the effect you speculate about, it seems to have no parallel in history although empires have existed before, there are counter examples ... so it seems not too likely that that is the cause. Of course, no two days are the same, no two countries are the same and no two countries are even the same with regard to their not-same-ness on two different days, but countries and cultures move slow enough, and countries and humans are similar enough that we'd see such obvious and large patterns, I believe.

On the other hand, we have other explanations that have supporting evidence, apply to multiple situations etc, so they seem more likely. When you present a new theory, claim that it cannot be falsified because no two countries are exactly the same (and therefore no relationships between countries can be the same), I think you should offer some evidence to support that theory instead of asking others to just accept it.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨◲◳
14. jpttsn+J92[view] [source] 2020-06-15 18:14:07
>>luckyl+Av1
Thought provoking, thanks.

I’m not asking you to accept anything: I don’t evangelize. In particular I have no theory that generalizes over nations. It seems very limiting. Like ignoring a mechanism I see work in my apartment because it doesn’t hold true for buildings writ large.

Edit: Probably shouldn’t have written “the superpower” posts ago because that makes it sound like a general claim.

[go to top]