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[parent] [thread] 55 comments
1. Kednic+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-06 22:02:09
What can we do, as a community, to limit the spread of fascism? It seems that it's quite a problem.
replies(6): >>s5300+i >>colleg+V >>JKCalh+21 >>rayine+l1 >>wayout+12 >>dang+dP2
2. s5300+i[view] [source] 2020-06-06 22:04:42
>>Kednic+(OP)
Well, some may say to promote ideas of anti-fascism... However, it would appear the people in the places that matter definitely don't want that happening and have no issue associating ideas of anti-fascism with terrorism.

So, I think that the correct answer to your question may be "nothing" - unfortunately, it's already too late.

3. colleg+V[view] [source] 2020-06-06 22:09:06
>>Kednic+(OP)
You've done enough. People who have said "All lives matter" on their FB pages have been fired from their jobs this week. This is what counts as "fascism" now.
replies(1): >>ChrisL+k2
4. JKCalh+21[view] [source] 2020-06-06 22:09:49
>>Kednic+(OP)
As a start:

Education.

People need to believe justice is applied equally: white as well as black, rich as well as poor.

Close the extreme and growing wealth gap in the country.

replies(3): >>Barrin+w1 >>csunbi+B1 >>rayine+y2
5. rayine+l1[view] [source] 2020-06-06 22:13:11
>>Kednic+(OP)
What exactly is the “fascism” that we’re worried about spreading?
replies(3): >>superc+h2 >>trypto+R2 >>kennyw+U3
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6. Barrin+w1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:14:50
>>JKCalh+21
I'm always confused by the suggestion that education is some sort of panacea for totalitarian ideology.

Someone who is racist or fascist by definition rejects the notion that justice ought to be applied equally and just about anything else that you would likely consider moral or proper.

And fascism also is not a function of wealth inequality. Fascism has historically grown out of the middle-class. Seymour Martin Lipset identified fascism as "Extremismus der Mitte" in Germany. It's well at home in the petite bourgeoisie or in the US I guess you'd say the suburban middle class.

replies(3): >>x86_64+z2 >>jibal+b3 >>Kednic+b9
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7. csunbi+B1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:15:10
>>JKCalh+21
The wealth gap will not be closed, unless an economic wipe (e.g. a world war again) occurs.
replies(1): >>Aviceb+V1
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8. Aviceb+V1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:17:09
>>csunbi+B1
Well than here we go, why is this, and what can be done to rectify it before that happens?
replies(1): >>csunbi+c3
9. wayout+12[view] [source] 2020-06-06 22:17:17
>>Kednic+(OP)
"Boogaloo" isn't exclusively fascist; it's kind of a weird convergence of the militant ultra-right and ultra-left. The ultra-right wants to unironically kill everyone who isn't a white evangelical christian and create a white ethno-state, while the ultra-left wants to unironically kill the rich and end capitalism.

The only thing they agree on is they want to exploit heightened tensions to start a civil war with the belief they would eliminate the other side.

replies(2): >>Aviceb+w2 >>JKCalh+Bb
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10. superc+h2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:18:31
>>rayine+l1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
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11. ChrisL+k2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:19:13
>>colleg+V
Who has been fired for only saying "All lives matter" on FB?
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12. Aviceb+w2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:20:56
>>wayout+12
the ultra left does not want to kill the rich and end capitalism, see neo-liberal policies. It's outdated to say the left are for the people anymore, unless they live in coastal elite cities with extremely well paid jobs making their situation so out of touch with the rest of the country/world they now play fascist. The most obvious sign of evil is when it eats something and takes it's face
replies(2): >>wayout+f3 >>idownv+z4
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13. rayine+y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:20:59
>>JKCalh+21
The United States is one of the most educated places in the world: https://cgsnet.org/ckfinder/userfiles/images/Data_Sources_11.... Most importantly, it has been that way for a long time. Our college achievement rate for people age 55-65, the people who created the systems in place today, is almost double the OECD average, and more than double that of France.

As to people believing that justice should be applied equally—you’ll find few Americans who disagree with that. What you’ll find is a lot of people who disagree about what that means.

The final point is a random left-wing wishlist item that has nothing to do with fighting “fascism.”

replies(1): >>JKCalh+O8
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14. x86_64+z2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:21:06
>>Barrin+w1
People like throwing education out there because it's less politically charged than anything meaningful.
replies(2): >>krapp+E4 >>JKCalh+i8
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15. trypto+R2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:24:02
>>rayine+l1
People voting for trump.
replies(1): >>Aviceb+C3
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16. jibal+b3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:25:54
>>Barrin+w1
"as a start" != "panacea", and education was only offered as one of three items.
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17. csunbi+c3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:25:56
>>Aviceb+V1
It is actually simple: The wealth gap will not close, because not everybody is born equal.

Wealthy people will have wealthy kids (the right of inheritance), kids can use the wealth to increase their wealth because they will have more opportunities to exploit.

Poor people will have poor kids, which wont have enough opportunities to exploit and will probably stay poor.

It just snowballs from here, unless you wipe the economy and make everyone equal again. But then a couple of people will get wealthy again, does not matter if pure luck or skill, and the trend will continue.

Life is not fair and will not be, until we find a way to make everyone equal and provide equal opportunities.

replies(4): >>Aviceb+24 >>wpietr+54 >>aniro+26 >>JKCalh+t8
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18. wayout+f3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:26:07
>>Aviceb+w2
Leftists and liberals are not the same thing.
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19. Aviceb+C3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:28:12
>>trypto+R2
And not people advocating mass censorship on communication platforms? Please, you're biases are showing and it's embarrassing.
replies(2): >>ryeigh+L3 >>kennyw+X4
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20. ryeigh+L3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:29:10
>>Aviceb+C3
I think you missed the irony in GP's comment
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21. kennyw+U3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:30:28
>>rayine+l1
Have you not been paying attention this past three years? Rampant nationalism, children in cages (still happening), police brutality and murder without repercussions, teargassing and beating peaceful protesters, the attorney general asserting that the president cannot break the law. I could go on, but if those don't make you worried about the threat of fascism, I'm not sure what would...
replies(1): >>colleg+v4
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22. Aviceb+24[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:31:17
>>csunbi+c3
So you're suggesting we pretend it's not an issue we need to address? You're framing it as a natural thing, when I fully disagree. Oh Well, I was born rich, f u, seems like you aren't seeing what is going on out there.
replies(1): >>csunbi+Y4
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23. wpietr+54[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:31:39
>>csunbi+c3
There is no right of inheritance. As people on the right never tire of saying, people should have to work for what they get. Wondermark points out the hypocracy well: http://wondermark.com/c1135/
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24. colleg+v4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:36:02
>>kennyw+U3
"Children in cages" happened during the Obama administration. No uproar then?
replies(3): >>wetmor+65 >>kennyw+z6 >>tptace+uL2
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25. idownv+z4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:36:31
>>Aviceb+w2
the ultra left does not want to kill the rich

Just from the top of my hat, the latest example of a hundred-plus years worth of statements/actions that disprove that statement: https://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/videos/politik/Linken-Mitglied...

Shown there, a statement caught on tape at a strategy-summit of the German far-left party Die Linke (I freely translate): "...regarding Energiewende [German Green New Deal]… after the revolution, when the 1% has been shot, we still want to heat our homes…"

To which the party chairman, Bernd Riexinger, present on the same stage replied: "We're not gonna shoot them, we're going to put them to good use"

replies(1): >>Aviceb+95
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26. krapp+E4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:37:14
>>x86_64+z2
Also to push the false dichotomy that we have to choose one or the other, but can't do both.
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27. kennyw+X4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:40:25
>>Aviceb+C3
You can't have it both ways. Either facebook/twitter/instagram are common-carrier public squares, or they are private corporations. If they are private corps, they can block whatever they want. If they are common carriers, they can't censor people, but they will also have to open up their platforms to competition and submit to more government oversight to allow for fair and equal access.
replies(1): >>Aviceb+T5
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28. csunbi+Y4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:40:31
>>Aviceb+24
I am not saying that inheritance is a natural right. I agree that inheritance should not exist, because it is unfair. But, still, even if you get rid of inheritance, the kids will have different environments while growing up, it will still be unfair.

This is not a solved problem, so I can not provide you an answer on how to fix it. Hence please see my last sentence in my previous post:

Life is not fair and will not be, until we find a way to make everyone equal and provide equal opportunities.

replies(1): >>_y5hn+eP
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29. wetmor+65[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:41:04
>>colleg+v4
You're really missing the forest for the trees there.
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30. Aviceb+95[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:41:25
>>idownv+z4
You're cherry picking idownvote. Look at the current manufacturing and economic/workplace protection/maneuverability between class situation (not the stock market, the people) the US has been faced with. Do you really think this is working for everyone?
replies(1): >>idownv+J7
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31. Aviceb+T5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:45:53
>>kennyw+X4
I see no issue with the second option. Do you have an argument against that?
replies(1): >>kennyw+87
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32. aniro+26[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:46:35
>>csunbi+c3
I believe you have touched upon the fundamental problem.

We severely reduced inherited political power in the West. It was bloody and painful, but it was accomplished.

We can reduce or remove inherited economic power also. Hopefully it doesn't have to be so bloody (I am not so sure).

replies(1): >>karate+A8
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33. kennyw+z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:50:17
>>colleg+v4
Oh, sorry, so the nation has been listing towards fascism for decades? That is not a refuting of any of my points.

Bush started the use of drones in war, but Obama bears the blame for them in my opinion, because he could have backed away from it but instead he doubled down. I would say the same for the treatment of refugees at the border. Obama built the cages, but Trump uses them with a sickening joy and enthusiasm.

replies(1): >>SamRei+d7
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34. kennyw+87[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:54:56
>>Aviceb+T5
Nope. I'm for it. But you can't get upset about social media "censorship" without calling for these companies to be treated as common carrier / public squares and I see a lot of the former and not a lot of the latter. I suspect because gov. regulation of enterprise is traditionally opposed by the same right wing that is currently upset about social media censorship.
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35. SamRei+d7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:55:30
>>kennyw+z6
You seem to be misremembering. It was separating children from their family, not caging them, that people were complaining about last election season, because of perfectly ordinary border enforcement arresting illegal aliens.

The exception was some misaligned activists that accidentally posted Obama-era photos of "caged" children (behind a fence) a couple weeks early, which happened before some lawsuit forced the feds to release the children instead of housing them with their parents.

replies(1): >>kennyw+78
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36. idownv+J7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 22:59:43
>>Aviceb+95
I'm sorry but I think warming up old chestnuts about Mao, Lenin, Pol Pot, Che, Ho Chi-Minh or Stalin would be pointless by now, decades after since their "progress" has been laid bare.

Maybe I'm biased, but I come from an underpriviliged background (in a first world country), yet made great strides and climbed the social ladder. Throughout my experience, people the most concerned with trying to frame my poor childhood as a "class situation" were almost always middle-to-upper-class people.

At some point it even felt like rich kids use this framing to keep poorer ones form passing them on the social ladder. But I'm convinced by now that the urge to frame groups into instituitional victims, is something more personal: Having the luxury of never having to grow up because of their parent's financial background, they rather choose to pick a fight they can't loose because it's not theirs.

replies(1): >>Aviceb+s9
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37. kennyw+78[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:05:00
>>SamRei+d7
"because of perfectly ordinary border enforcement arresting illegal aliens."

Sorry, no I am actually super upset about the ongoing detention and inhumane treatment of people at the border. ALSO about family separation, but the cages are immoral to me as well. Many of these people are not "illegal aliens" but people seeking asylum which is NOT illegal.

replies(1): >>SamRei+S8
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38. JKCalh+i8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:06:53
>>x86_64+z2
Not really.

I see fear behind most of the worst behavior in our modern politics. Education goes a long way to address fear.

Want politically charged? I suspect the reason the U.S. has its current president is due in part to a emasculated voting class lashing out from feelings of powerlessness. Education would have gone a long way to making them feel more relevant in a constantly changing economy/society.

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39. JKCalh+t8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:08:59
>>csunbi+c3
I don't disagree that there will always be wealthy and poor. I think it is a matter of degree though. In the U.S. it has only worsened....
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40. karate+A8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:09:39
>>aniro+26
Bertrand Russell, in one of his more political books (I forget which—maybe New Hopes for a Changing World?) points out how odd it is that we now consider the notion that people would inherit titles & positions obviously silly and can't even understand how anyone ever took it seriously, but consider inherited wealth completely normal and questioning it as radical.
replies(2): >>Saucie+df >>aniro+jo
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41. JKCalh+O8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:12:07
>>rayine+y2
> The final point is a random left-wing wishlist item

I would say the perception that the system is rigged toward the elite and that the masses will never attain any measure of wealth is directly correlated to the populist election of a president (with fascist leanings) that we see right now in the U.S.

But perhaps I am ignorant of the term "fascist".

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42. SamRei+S8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:12:47
>>kennyw+78
Illegal border crossing is still illegal. We have a system in place for asylum seekers at a port of entry.

Nonetheless, the point of my comment is that children are not being caged, they're now being separated, as happens when suspects get arrested.

replies(1): >>kennyw+ea
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43. Kednic+b9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:15:27
>>Barrin+w1
I don't have all the answers, but isn't education an answer to racism? I feel that modern beliefs about race realism don't hold up to a basic understanding of molecular genetics.
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44. Aviceb+s9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:18:46
>>idownv+J7
I'm not advocating going Stalin or Mao is the solution, I'm saying that the current status quo needs re-adjustment.

I'm also from an underprivileged background (in a first world country as well), I witnessed first hand how the odds stacked against me have translated into my lived experiences.

Maybe unlike you, I have fought and lost against people with better parental financial situation I have a perspective that this is an issue, not something that can just be gritted through. Not all success is through hard work.

replies(1): >>idownv+lc
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45. kennyw+ea[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:27:52
>>SamRei+S8
https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/immigrants-right...

> Mirian G, a mother from Honduras, came to the U.S. with her young son on Feb. 20, 2018. She presented herself to immigration authorities and sought asylum, committing no crime. During her interview, Mirian provided immigration officers with several identification documents for her child which listed her as his mother. The next morning, Border Patrol agents took away her 18-month-old son with no explanation. She did not see him again for two months.

Even if she had crossed illegally, separating an infant from its mother like this for two hours is unacceptable to me, much less two months - and I would hope it would also be unacceptable to you.

replies(1): >>SamRei+fb
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46. SamRei+fb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:38:28
>>kennyw+ea
Huh? I'm just pointing out the facts here. I agree it would be nice if some children stayed with the parents, at the parents' discretion, and the border patrol had the resources and funding to make such stays comfortable.

Fortunately, today the mother would be told to stay in Mexico, and get to show up later at the port of entry for her asylum hearing. So we've fixed that problem.

replies(1): >>kennyw+Hf
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47. JKCalh+Bb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:42:26
>>wayout+12
They agree too that that an AR-15 is an enabling technology.
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48. idownv+lc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 23:49:39
>>Aviceb+s9
Fair enough. I didn't expect that the "ultra" in ultra-left meant softer-than-mao. After all ultra is a pretty super superlative, right?

If I were to be just cynical, I could argue that your loss may be due to processing your uphill battle via this whole marxist framing and not via a more independent "OK, how can I improve my situation?" (e.g. switch companies/sector/trade/town/country).

But I agree, Not all success is through hard work. . Absolutely. My success is a proof of this, because I'm a mediocre programmer at best. Which invigorates my disbelief in programmers advocating the ultra-left Marx: In the programmers job-market how can one feel disadvantaged at all? The financial crisis 2008 left us untouched, while the majority of society were furloughed or fired. Same story this year.

My advice: This odds-stacked-against-you-framing is your biggest waste of time. Financially and spiritually.

replies(1): >>wayout+pg
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49. Saucie+df[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-07 00:23:19
>>karate+A8
This is pretty off-topic but I've read a lot of Russell, and I just want to point out that he was declared unfit to teach by the judiciary owing to his political beliefs. Just to disabuse anyone of the notion that the United States values free speech and expression.
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50. kennyw+Hf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-07 00:28:26
>>SamRei+fb
I was just pointing out that some of your facts are incorrect. You said "Illegal border crossing is still illegal" and "they're now being separated, as happens when suspects get arrested." and earlier "perfectly ordinary border enforcement arresting illegal aliens" but as you can see from the quote above - this is happening to people who did not get arrested or do anything illegal.
replies(1): >>SamRei+Gh
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51. wayout+pg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-07 00:36:50
>>idownv+lc
Stalin and Mao were autocrats. Autocracy and leftism/communism are not the same thing -- there have been just as many right-wing/fascist autocrats (if not more given the US' propensity to prop them up past their expiration dates) who have genocided their own people. I would argue that it's the consolidation of power that leads to bad outcomes regardless of political ideology.

What I would call "ultra-left" are militant anarcho-communists who believe in abolishing strong systems of centralized control in favor of community rule. So no nations, only self-governed communities of some arbitrarily small size. This jives with "ultra-left" in areas with leftist militia uprisings. Not saying it's practical, but there are well-established schools of leftist thought at play that predate Stalin and Mao.

Liberalism is a center-right ideology that tries to marry right-wing capital control economies with left-wing social values. Many on the left regard liberalism (and neo-liberalism) as a failed project, because with any clash between economics and social values, the economics tend to win out. I'm not saying communism is the answer, but a move away from a scarcity-based economy would be a good start.

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52. SamRei+Gh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-07 00:54:26
>>kennyw+Hf
The example you give appears to be an exceptional case.
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53. aniro+jo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-07 02:03:12
>>karate+A8
It is a massive paradigm shift. That is exactly what leads me to believe that moving to remove/reduce it is going to lead to violence.

I also think it is likely necessary to do so if we intend for humanity to move forward.

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54. _y5hn+eP[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-07 08:38:36
>>csunbi+Y4
Or people learn to share and be of service to others. There's nothing natural about everybody being "equalized".
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55. tptace+uL2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-08 03:15:58
>>colleg+v4
1. Because we didn't notice, because nobody was bringing it up. The cat's out of the bag now.

2. Because many of us had a baseline belief that the Obama administration wouldn't enact punitive policies towards undocumented people for sport, and there's clear evidence that the current administration does that. So the calculus isn't the same.

3. There are drastically more caged children now, because the current administration adopted policies specifically intended to increase the caging of children, as a deterrent. So the policies themselves aren't the same.

56. dang+dP2[view] [source] 2020-06-08 04:12:28
>>Kednic+(OP)
Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

This thread was entirely predictably awful.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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