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[parent] [thread] 41 comments
1. gamblo+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-01 17:53:55
The idea behind qualified immunity is to protect government employees from nuisance suits over discretionary actions performed in their official capacity, excepting actions that violated local laws or civil rights. (Basically, it lets a human government employee make reasonable mistakes.)

The original laws of this country did not permit lawsuits against government employees acting in an official capacity. After the Civil War, the Civil Right Act of 1871 was passed allowing citizens and residents to sue government officials for civil rights violations suffered under color of law. The qualified immunity doctrine was created by the courts after that to shield public officials from nuisance suits for discretionary actions (generally meaning bureaucratic actions) by people angry over actions that went against them (i.e., for denials of licenses, judgments, etc.).

Unfortunately, due to the volume of nuisance suits, this doctrine got stronger and stronger over time. At some point, the courts began applying this strengthened doctrine intended for bureaucratic actions to police actions.

replies(3): >>jstanl+41 >>deepsp+u6 >>baddox+J6
2. jstanl+41[view] [source] 2020-06-01 17:58:51
>>gamblo+(OP)
> The idea behind qualified immunity is to protect government employees from nuisance suits over discretionary actions performed in their official capacity, excepting actions that violated local laws or civil rights. (Basically, it lets a human government employee make reasonable mistakes.)

But why shouldn't all people be protected from nuisance suits over reasonable mistakes?

replies(5): >>_bxg1+13 >>tricer+Ya >>pmoric+Fd >>Rury+yi >>hacker+pu
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3. _bxg1+13[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:06:50
>>jstanl+41
Because there's no way to draw a clear line between "nuisance" suits and "serious" suits. Go ahead, try articulating it in a precise way that can't be gamed.
replies(5): >>nickff+45 >>clampr+P5 >>SkyBel+R6 >>jstanl+m8 >>jhawk2+kb
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4. nickff+45[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:17:02
>>_bxg1+13
I think the parent comment was making the point that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If a protection is generally useful, it should be generally available.
replies(2): >>mc32+H5 >>banana+Il
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5. mc32+H5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:19:39
>>nickff+45
As a private citizen you’re acting on your own behalf and discretion?

Here I can’t sue mr Amash if I disagree with his bill, but I can sue him as a private citizen if he violates my civil rights as a person.

replies(1): >>codys+1g
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6. clampr+P5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:20:24
>>_bxg1+13
It isn't a question of defining that clear line. I think the parent poster is saying: why should only government employees get this special immunity? Why do government employees get to make reasonable mistakes and be protected, but no one else does?
replies(1): >>prapta+Ue
7. deepsp+u6[view] [source] 2020-06-01 18:24:36
>>gamblo+(OP)
It is important to emphasize that there are no actual laws behind Qualified Immunity. It is a doctrine that was "invented by the Court out of whole cloth".

See: https://www.cato.org/blog/qualified-immunity-supreme-courts-...

8. baddox+J6[view] [source] 2020-06-01 18:25:43
>>gamblo+(OP)
The idea that law enforcement and government officials should be treated less strictly under the law is, to me, completely preposterous. If anything, they should explicitly not be given the benefit of the doubt and should be treated much more strictly under the law.

I realize that a huge number of people completely disagree with that, and I don't really know how to persuade any of them other than to urge them to examine history and note the consequences of authoritarianism.

replies(3): >>tathou+c8 >>closep+ce >>narava+ze
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9. SkyBel+R6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:26:37
>>_bxg1+13
So then flip the question, why should government be immune to nuisance suits if there is no precise way to differentiate them from serious suits?
replies(4): >>_bxg1+d8 >>kube-s+p8 >>mattkr+Ze >>gamblo+Mi
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10. tathou+c8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:32:57
>>baddox+J6
Well, i mostly agree with you but want to point out one fine distinction which is that you can still sue the government for your rights being violated, but you can't sue the individual bureaucrat.

Put another way, if your local DMV agent is acting funny, you can still sue the DMV, even if you can't sue the agent directly, FWIU

Anyway, hopefully the SC will throw this all out in the coming weeks.

replies(1): >>baddox+gc
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11. _bxg1+d8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:32:59
>>SkyBel+R6
That's what I'm saying, is that they shouldn't. And that probably nobody should, because legal recourse is essential, even if it's open to abuse.
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12. jstanl+m8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:33:51
>>_bxg1+13
Is exactly the point I'm making.
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13. kube-s+p8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:34:13
>>SkyBel+R6
I think the idea was that the government is a big target and it hurts everyone when it is the subject of nuisance suits. Whereas an individual is less likely to be targeted.
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14. tricer+Ya[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:47:16
>>jstanl+41
Ideally. Government workers are just more likely to pick up nuisance suits (and legit suits) than the average individual due to the nature of their work. I can see why the concept originated.
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15. jhawk2+kb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:48:29
>>_bxg1+13
If there was a way to draw a clear line, it would kill the insurance industry. It is one of the reason why you are required to have insurance on everything.
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16. baddox+gc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 18:53:51
>>tathou+c8
If a DMV agent is depriving you of your rights or mistreating you in some tortious way, why shouldn't you be able to sue that DMV agent? I'm not necessarily against government offices providing legal services to help defend their employees (AFAIK that's common for public school teachers and employees), but why shouldn't you be able to sue the person who is committing the tortious act?
replies(3): >>nerdpo+Ye >>gamblo+If >>Talane+Zl
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17. pmoric+Fd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:01:45
>>jstanl+41
That's sort of what a corporate entity provides and why people form corporations instead of doing business in their own name.
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18. closep+ce[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:04:04
>>baddox+J6
So the planning commission denies a permit for an addition to your house, diminishing its value. Or grants a permit to your neighbor, to the same effect.

One approach would be to have the judge say, "actually that addition looks fine to me, the commissioners shall pay you the corresponding value out of their kids' college funds."

Another would be, "I'm not the planning commission, that's their decision to make, unless they've acted outside the bounds of their charter, tough shit."

Qualified immunity is essentially the latter.

replies(1): >>nerdpo+Me
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19. narava+ze[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:06:37
>>baddox+J6
>If anything, they should explicitly not be given the benefit of the doubt and should be treated much more strictly under the law.

How many of your tax dollars are you willing to pour into addressing the volume of nuisance cases then?

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20. nerdpo+Me[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:07:42
>>closep+ce
Except in that example the planning committee did something that wasn't otherwise illegal. Unless your case is showing that they're picking favorites or something.
replies(1): >>gamblo+Tg
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21. prapta+Ue[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:08:12
>>clampr+P5
Because they act neither in their own name nor for their own benefit.

Issuing or denying a permit could easily have millions of dollars of impact. Nobody in their right mind would agree to take that kind of personal responsibility without a proportionally high profit.

replies(1): >>nerdpo+6f
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22. nerdpo+Ye[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:08:24
>>baddox+gc
As a taxpayer, I'd much prefer individual DMV agents being sued and having to defend themselves, compared to the DMV itself being sued and my tax money being used in its defense.
replies(3): >>gamblo+sh >>pas+7m >>landry+Mr
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23. mattkr+Ze[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:08:30
>>SkyBel+R6
I think you've got it backwards: the government itself isn't immune, but individual government employees are. In other words, you can sue the state of Utah over its policy, but not the individual employees implementing that policy.
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24. nerdpo+6f[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:09:41
>>prapta+Ue
Same is true for any other employee of any other organization.

If a cable tech steals something from your house, is the cable company liable, or the cable tech?

Edit: a similar doctrine should (but doesn't) apply to decisionmakers at large corporations. If the CEO is told repeatedly about a safety failure and refuses to take action, it's ridiculous to me that the CEO isn't personally liable for any damage or injury caused as a result.

replies(2): >>pas+Ds >>pc86+WQ
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25. gamblo+If[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:13:00
>>baddox+gc
Qualified immunity wouldn't protect a DMV agent (or other bureaucrat) depriving you of your rights in violation of the law.

It only protects a government employee who makes a discretionary decision as part of their normal duties. This might mean they get it wrong, but if they can show their decision was reasonable and (where relevant) pursuant to a process established by the agency, that's fine. In that case, the problem is the process not the employee, and so the proper defendant is the agency not the employee that is simply following procedures set forth by the agency.

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26. codys+1g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:14:24
>>mc32+H5
The immunity enjoyed by Legislators is similar to but distinct from the Qualified Immunity enjoyed by government employees.

In the case of Federal Legislators, their immunity is written into the constitution explicitly.

No such explicit provision exists for government employees.

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27. gamblo+Tg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:19:17
>>nerdpo+Me
No, that example is precisely on point.

Qualified immunity applies precisely because they didn't do anything illegal (based on the limited facts of the hypo). If they did something illegal, then qualified immunity would not apply.

replies(1): >>PaulDa+K31
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28. gamblo+sh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:21:56
>>nerdpo+Ye
Would you prefer that individual programmers be sued (instead of their employers) and have to defend themselves when apps/programs crash due to bugs?

Because that's basically what you're saying you want.

And anyways, if the DMV agent was acting in their capacity as a DMV employee and following established procedure, the DMV would end up paying their legal costs and settlements against the employee anyways...but without getting a say in the defense against the underlying lawsuit.

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29. Rury+yi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:27:13
>>jstanl+41
We do in some aspects.

An example might be Good Samaritan laws. Such laws are intended to reduce bystanders' hesitation to assist in CPR, for fear of being sued or prosecuted for unintentional injury or wrongful death.

The problem here however, is the obvious and rampant abuse of QI...

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30. gamblo+Mi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:28:01
>>SkyBel+R6
why should government be immune to nuisance suits if there is no precise way to differentiate them from serious suits?

Under the centuries-old principle of sovereign immunity, the government can simply choose not to be liable for anything at all. Sovereign immunity is the default for most countries now, and throughout history.

The US and the countries of the EU are relatively unique in allowing themselves to be sued for damages for their failures.

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31. banana+Il[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:42:35
>>nickff+45
It IS generally available. If you are acting on the behalf of a private organization (and not a public one) the corporation that you work for is responsible for your actions (short of breaking the law) and not you.
replies(1): >>nickff+Zo
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32. Talane+Zl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:43:44
>>baddox+gc
Because that agent is acting on the authority of the DMV, and the DMV is responsible for how their authority is wielded. The intent is to keep organizations from facing repercussions for bad behavior by just throwing the individual actors under the bus. Of course this only works out if the organization itself can be held accountable, and forced to properly deal with internal troubles.
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33. pas+7m[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 19:44:33
>>nerdpo+Ye
It's an interesting problems. Doctors have liability insurance for this reason basically, which just pushes healthcare costs even higher, and creates this very opaque system of accountability and care quality.
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34. nickff+Zo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 20:00:15
>>banana+Il
IANAL, but I think that in many, if not most cases, you're jointly liable with the corporation. You may not be worth going after if the corporation has a lot of money and you don't, or the company may indemnify you, but you're probably still liable.
replies(2): >>pc86+3Q >>thepti+sv1
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35. landry+Mr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 20:13:31
>>nerdpo+Ye
Your position is really contrary to your interests.

DMV agents are probably not very wealthy. By suing them you would simply drive an underpaid worker into bankruptcy and probably never get much money back.

Meanwhile, the DMV can easily scapegoat it's employee and never reform or make any systematic changes. Furthermore you would have no recourse to sue them directly since they can just keep hiring more poor workers to be thrown under the bus.

Ultimately the tax payers (or voters) need to keep the DMV accountable. There is no alternative. Democracy doesn't have shortcuts. The tax payers have to pay when the government screws up. More to the point - the tax payer ALWAYS ends up paying when the government screws up, without exception, 100% of the time. Either they pay by having a corrupt DMV that hurts society and everyone at large, or they pay through lawsuits and higher costs at the DMV.

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36. pas+Ds[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 20:18:47
>>nerdpo+6f
In most (all?) countries CEOs (and directors, and employees) are personally liable for criminal acts.

The problem is this whole qualified immunity is a civil thing. Workplace safety negligence, theft, police violence all are criminal cases. But. After the the prosecutors (DAs) stopped charging police officers people started suing them in civil court.

The problem is not QI per se, the problem is _wtf_ is going on with cops killing anybody in non-violent cases. (And how come there's not a public inquiry when someone dies in law enforcement custody or during any interaction with police. And how come nothing has really changed over the years - except police got the old tanks from the post-9/11 war-on-terror spending spree.)

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37. hacker+pu[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 20:28:10
>>jstanl+41
I would suspect it's a Hobbesian thing - we allow government to do things closer to a stage of nature (e.g. locking people up) and deny that pleasure to ourselves. As such because government employees by their nature do things with our consent that we can never do the potential for nuisance suits arises.

So if I grab someone off the street and handcuff them we can be almost 100% sure I'm committing a crime. If the police do the same thing we can be almost 100% sure they are not committing a crime.

Exceptions happen in both cases but it's not unreasonable (which isn't to say it's correct) to take make laws that take that into account.

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38. pc86+3Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 22:23:06
>>nickff+Zo
The fact that you use the word "liable" is telling, because QI does not protect someone from illegal actions they take while operating as an agent of the state (or at least it shouldn't/wasn't intended to). It sets up another obstacle whereby if you want to go after an agent of the state personally for their actions, you have to be able to prove those actions are illegal before you can even start talking about their liability.
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39. pc86+WQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 22:27:58
>>nerdpo+6f
QI doesn't protect government employees for their illegal actions so you're comparing apples and hammers.

QI protects government employees from retaliation for decisions made as part of their job, that are necessary for them to complete their job. Police unions and sociopaths with badges and law degrees have bastardized this to try to use it to protect police officers for murdering people.

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40. PaulDa+K31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-01 23:58:51
>>gamblo+Tg
This utterly tautological, which part of the problem with QI. QI applies precisely when there's no precedent that explicitly declares an action to be illegal (c.f the case of cops that used pepper spray, which was deemed sufficiently different from tasing that the rules established for tasing did not apply, there was therefore no precedent for the precise case of unnecessarily pepper spraying a person and thus QI applied.

QI completely sidesteps the question "is it illegal" by replacing it with "has a suitable court ever established a precedent of suitable specificity saying that this is illegal when carried out by a government official/employee"?

Which is likely how Gauvin will walk, since despite killing person being illegal, there are no suitable court precedents ruling with sufficient specificity that a government agent killing a person is illegal.

replies(1): >>gamblo+Ic1
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41. gamblo+Ic1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 01:15:35
>>PaulDa+K31
No, it's not tautological.

QI applies if the government employee shows they acted reasonably in exercising discretion in performing their job. It doesn't matter whether or not there's no precedent.

Cases saying where QI applies, like the pepper spray case, exist because nobody knew beforehand if it applied to the use of pepper spray. And if you read the case, it was the policy of that police force to use pepper spray. Thus, the question boiled down to whether it was reasonable the officer to use pepper spray in that situation. The police force is the proper defendant in that case, not the individual officer.

Which is likely how Gauvin will walk, since despite killing person being illegal, there are no suitable court precedents ruling with sufficient specificity that a government agent killing a person is illegal

That's both ridiculous, wrong, and clearly FUD. Within the past year several cops have been found guilty of murder or homicide for the illegal use of force resulting in the death of someone. It's very likely that Gauvin will plead guilty to avoid a trial and secure a reduced sentence, because if he risks a trial he would be sentenced to life in prison if he's found guilty. (To walk, he'd need to convince 12 people that he isn't guilty; a hung jury would just result in a re-trial.)

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42. thepti+sv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 03:59:03
>>nickff+Zo
> I think that in many, if not most cases, you're jointly liable with the corporation

Probably depends on exactly where you are, but in the US the "LL" in "LLC" is "Limited Liability". (The same concept applies for a C-corp, and Europe has equivalent constructs AFAIK.)

One of the main selling points of a corporation is limited liability. If you are acting on behalf of the company you are very explicitly not "jointly" or in any other way liable for its actions. There are very specific things you have to do wrong to become individually liable; this is called "piercing the veil":

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/personal-liability-p...

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