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1. deeble+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-04-17 18:03:18
Their workers are treated like robots, not slaves.

And the "good wages for low qualifications" argument is equally exhausting. Money shouldn't be some universal justification for overlooking poor workplace conditions and unethical treatment of human beings.

replies(4): >>txcwpa+y2 >>fbonet+A2 >>colech+T2 >>adequa+v9
2. txcwpa+y2[view] [source] 2020-04-17 18:22:41
>>deeble+(OP)
I never said that good wages is justification for anything. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I do a lot of work with AWS, and I care where my money goes, so I spend a lot of time researching this whenever an article accusing Amazon comes up. I have not seen anything outside a few edge cases that qualifies as "unethical treatment". This is exactly what I'm referring to in my original comment. A story about an FC worker peeing in a bottle doesn't mean they're being treated unethically. I've seen stories about Google SWEs peeing in bottles and sleeping under their desk because they were under a tight deadline, and yet I don't see people boycotting Google over their treatment of SWEs (coincidentally, one of the ways I do see people justifying these tight deadlines for SWEs is that they make lots of money, so it seems at least some people do think that good wages is justification for tough working conditions).

If you want a better manual labor comparison, oilfield workers work in grueling conditions, are forced to sleep in tiny bunks, and sometimes come out of the job with a missing limb, but I don't see posts on HN every day about how we should boycott oil companies over their treatment of workers (and again, lot's of people justify the grueling conditions of oilfield workers by pointing out they make a lot of money, so...).

I only have a certain amount of processing power in my brain and can only be outraged at so many things at any given time. If Amazon workers truly were being treated terribly, I would care. But a handful of workers (out of nearly 1 million) saying that they got stressed out at work because their boss asked them to work faster just doesn't make the cut for me. Could it be better? Sure, and with my nearly-unlimited supply of online social media slacktivism, I'll advocate for things to be better. But in the real world where resources aren't unlimited, there are many companies that I'll boycott over working conditions before Amazon.

replies(3): >>colech+u3 >>tareqa+x3 >>Walter+zd
3. fbonet+A2[view] [source] 2020-04-17 18:22:50
>>deeble+(OP)
Adults are capable of deciding risk/reward factors when selecting a job. There are many jobs that are well known for being grueling, and yet people still sign up to take those jobs because they value the compensation more than other considerations.
replies(1): >>Barrin+Ld
4. colech+T2[view] [source] 2020-04-17 18:24:54
>>deeble+(OP)
An old Slavic word robota (slavery is a good translation) was the inspiration for early science fiction writer Chapek to coin the word robot in the book Rossum's Universal Robots.

The plot centers around artificial flesh and bone life (the robots) which "lack nothing but a soul" used as a forced labor class with outcomes you might imagine.

Given the origin, really "robots, not slaves!" doesn't hold up as a particularly strong argument.

replies(2): >>Hideou+A4 >>0x4477+J5
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5. colech+u3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:29:10
>>txcwpa+y2
It is intense, hard labor with a lot of performance pressure squeezed out of people who are the most desperate for work.

When it comes down to it nobody can put the pressure on a software engineer to do that kind of every second counts work which forces people to go beyond their limits and ruin their bodies because they need to put food on the table and have few other options.

replies(1): >>kryoge+Qg
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6. tareqa+x3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:29:46
>>txcwpa+y2
What do you think of the accounts in https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/ ?
replies(1): >>txcwpa+E4
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7. Hideou+A4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:39:16
>>colech+T2
In Czech robota means more along the lines of "manual labor" not slavery. It has a connotation of drudgery and tedium though.

Edit: The related word Robotnik (like the villain in Sonic) means something like "serf" though

replies(2): >>colech+L5 >>xyzzyz+Lm3
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8. txcwpa+E4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:39:47
>>tareqa+x3
So there's been 14 posts on that site since Jan 2020. I clicked through a few of them, and it's things like someone complaining that their boss asked them to be a self-starter and get started on work without having to be explicitly told what to do. It's hard to take that seriously. There's one in there about being denied an MRI after getting injured, which doesn't sound ideal, but it's also only 3 sentence so I feel like I'm missing parts of the story.

And even if I did take all of these at face value and was outraged at them, an average of 3 complaints per month from a workforce of nearly 1 million is... well... makes it seem like Amazon is doing a stellar job treating its employees well if there are so few complaints. Of course in reality this website only captures a subset of employees, but just based on this site alone, my opinion has not changed.

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9. 0x4477+J5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:45:35
>>colech+T2
> An old Slavic word robota (slavery is a good translation)...

This is unequivocally false. I speak both Czech ans Slovak, with the word robota being Czech in origin. Robota either means work in general, or manual labour specifically. It does not, nor has it ever, meant slavery. The word for that would be otroctvo in Slovak or otroctví in Czech.

replies(1): >>colech+xe
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10. colech+L5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:45:51
>>Hideou+A4
When such words were really in use though, how much was the manual labor a result of choice or freedom of the laborer?
replies(1): >>Hideou+0m
11. adequa+v9[view] [source] 2020-04-17 19:07:33
>>deeble+(OP)
Is your argument that since you don't want to do this job you don't think other people should be able to either? It certainly isn't unethical. Amazon offered people money to do this job and people agreed to take those jobs.
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12. Walter+zd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:30:58
>>txcwpa+y2
> good wages is justification for tough working conditions

It's the other way around. People won't do tough things without higher pay. It's always been that way.

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13. Barrin+Ld[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:31:50
>>fbonet+A2
In many regions Amazon and other large retailers with similar conditions are some of the very few employers left to even offer a decent income, to the point where local governments are groveling in front of these companies.

The classism of the managerial tech class is always on pure display in these discussions, because contrary to developers who can pick and choose their workplace in some free competitive market, unqualified blue collar workers are often more or less forced to work under these conditions if they even want healthcare or be able to send their kids to a decent school.

If healthcare and education was free like it is in other developed countries and not employer bound you could make the argument that they're free to work another job instead. In the US it's a facetious point.

replies(1): >>maland+7h
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14. colech+xe[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:37:57
>>0x4477+J5
Would the meaning have shifted in the last hundred years?
replies(1): >>0x4477+Pf
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15. 0x4477+Pf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:48:15
>>colech+xe
Not in the way you indicate, especially since there is already a dedicated word for slavery. To the best of my knowledge, robota still refers to work (as in one's job) or labour in general. I most frequently encounter the word robota when I or someone else announces that they are leaving to go to work by saying 'Idem do roboty.'

There isn't really any ambiguity to it and I have never seen the word used as some sort of analogy or synonym for slavery (certainly not in common parlance, though I'm sure it has been used that way somewhere, sometime). If someone wishes to talk about slavery, they will use the appropriate word.

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16. kryoge+Qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:55:46
>>colech+u3
> the most desperate for work

> they need to put food on the table and have few other options.

how does that make any sense? how are people being taken advantage of when they "have few other options", are "desperate for work", and "need to put food on the table"? amazon should pay less and make the job easier? then theyd just be another of the bad options.

so, your argument is amazon simply has an obligation to pay workers more (after theyre already a good option) because... why?

replies(1): >>colech+Di
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17. maland+7h[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:57:49
>>Barrin+Ld
> In many regions

Then move. It's not hard. I've moved for better work five times in my life with nothing but what fit in two suitcases four of those five times. This includes moving from one country to another twice. In two of these five cases I knew nobody where I was moving to, In one I knew exactly one person and in two I knew just a single family. Both my parents did the same when they came to the US. They came alone and knew nobody in the US when they moved here.

replies(1): >>Barrin+7j
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18. colech+Di[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 20:09:38
>>kryoge+Qg
When people don't have options, they find themselves forced to choose between terrible working conditions and not being able to afford to eat.

When your workforce consists of people taking the only job they can find, you worsen working conditions until just above where people would rather starve than work for you.

The issue isn't pay, it's employment practices and on-the-job pressures. There are very believable stories out there of the working conditions.

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19. Barrin+7j[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 20:12:30
>>maland+7h
Moving in the US virtually provides no wage premium for non-college educated people any longer. This is largely the consequence of breakdown of what would be considered 'good jobs', over the last twenty to thirty years.

"As the geographical pattern of work has shifted, so has that of wages. Economists have long acknowledged the existence of an urban wage premium: workers in more densely populated places earn more, in part because of the productivity benefits of crowding together that nurture urban growth in the first place. This pay premium used to hold across the range of skills. In 1970 workers without any college education could expect to get a boost to their earnings when they moved to a big city, just as better-educated workers did (see chart). Since then the urban wage advantage for well-educated workers has become more pronounced, even as that for less-educated workers has all but disappeared.

[...]

Most jobs in the first two of these categories are located in cities, open mainly to holders of college degrees and decently paid (frontier work is particularly lucrative). Only the last-mile jobs are occupied disproportionately by workers without a college education. They are better than nothing, but only just. Both wages and the quality of such jobs are typically low, which is just as well, since they are unlikely to avoid the creeping tide of automation for very long."

Bifucration of the economy, automation and the shift towards ever increasing knowledge sector and endemic housing shortages have largely destroyed the benefits of moving towards economic clusters for uneducated workers. This is not a solution in this day and age, it's a romanticised fiction. It may have worked for mom and pop who came to the US with nothing else but their clothes, but this is history. The world today is a different one, and it has largely left this segment of the population behind.

https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2019/01/10/t...

replies(1): >>maland+ck
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20. maland+ck[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 20:21:14
>>Barrin+7j
Then move to another country. You can live a pretty leisurely life in China just by virtue of being a native English speaker.

I knew many expats there with no college education, teaching for a mere 16 hours a week. They were given housing as part of their contracts and they earned enough to eat out every meal of the weeks if they so desired.

With just 16 hours of work per week, you have plenty of time to learn a new skill and better yourself.

Being a native English speaker is one of the greatest privileges one can have in this world. It's usually a foundational skill for succeeding in many of the best jobs in the World.

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21. Hideou+0m[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 20:34:40
>>colech+L5
"Robota" is still in regular use in modern Czech. And when R.U.R. was written (1920) the days of serfdom were pretty far in the past for Czechs (abolished in 1848).
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22. xyzzyz+Lm3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-19 07:53:27
>>Hideou+A4
In Polish, robotnik means just a physical laborer, there's no negative connotation at all.
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