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[parent] [thread] 22 comments
1. hyperp+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-01-26 23:56:39
While this is fascinating and I'm glad to have read it, it doesn't substantiate that this experiment set back psychiatry. The fact that the DSM-IV was prompted or encouraged by the experiment is suggested, but there's no argument for it. Even beyond that, the article doesn't even hint at an argument that the DSM-IV set back psychiatry (except offering the bare assertion that reductionism is false).

Of course, the DSM is very controversial, and many people could fill in the argument, but this article doesn't do it.

replies(8): >>petere+F1 >>taurat+02 >>s1arti+X3 >>ttctci+p5 >>unisha+D5 >>ALittl+e6 >>Merril+Mb >>mnemon+ic
2. petere+F1[view] [source] 2020-01-27 00:19:40
>>hyperp+(OP)
This is standard fare for the source. The Spectator generally pick one of the authors' bugbears (usually Muslims, The Left, or Political Correctness Gone Mad), write a beautifully written and entertaining piece, all the time aggressively mixing and conflating fact and fiction with a slightly sneering tone. For example: https://outline.com/nMzA8N
replies(1): >>hinkle+F3
3. taurat+02[view] [source] 2020-01-27 00:23:04
>>hyperp+(OP)
How many mental hospitals were closed in the 80s due to this?
replies(1): >>77pt77+7l
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4. hinkle+F3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 00:49:07
>>petere+F1
Makes the site name a bit on the nose, doesn't it?
5. s1arti+X3[view] [source] 2020-01-27 00:53:08
>>hyperp+(OP)
Yeah, I wish the article was more clear on why Rosenhan's article was important and what exactly is claimed in The Great Pretender.

Re-reading the article, It seems to suggest that it undermined public trust in forced psychiatric treatment. I can only guess that the author believes this was for the worse and is the titular setback?

replies(1): >>smiley+pH4
6. ttctci+p5[view] [source] 2020-01-27 01:13:20
>>hyperp+(OP)
Interestingly, the article makes no mention of the followup experiment where it seems a hospital invited a repetition and then claimed to have found 40 or so fake patients during the agreed period. Only to be told that the experimenters had sent none.

Or at least that's the version told in Adam Curtis' documentary The Trap (part 1)[1] which engages in Curtis's usual enthusiasm for fashioning a sweeping historical narrative out of somewhat sparse materials - in this case presenting the "Thud" experiment and its followup as a pivot point in the tale of how R. D. Laing's anti-psychiatry ironically led to the advent of the DSM IV era.

However that may be, if Curtis' account of the followup is correct it seems harder to argue the diagnostic prowess of the psychiatrists was not open to question, regardless of the status of the original experiment.

1: In the section beginning here: https://youtu.be/y97Ywl7RtUw?t=2204

replies(2): >>77pt77+Vk >>smiley+jG
7. unisha+D5[view] [source] 2020-01-27 01:16:29
>>hyperp+(OP)
It also implies the decline of psychoanalysis was a bad thing, when it's basically pseudoscience.
replies(1): >>mnemon+sb
8. ALittl+e6[view] [source] 2020-01-27 01:23:11
>>hyperp+(OP)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a review of a book that purports to make the case you're stating is not made here. That seems like a high bar for a review to me. Unless, do you mean you've read the book and the book fails to substantiate this claim?
replies(1): >>hyperp+F8
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9. hyperp+F8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 01:58:04
>>ALittl+e6
Obviously a review can't give the argument in its full detail, but that doesn't mean this presentation is good.

Did the DSM-IV result in inaccurate diagnoses? Worse treatment? The review doesn't clearly state a single negative consequence. For that matter, reading the review, I can't even be sure if the book argues that the DSM-IV was bad, or if that's merely the review authors' opinion. I expect that kind of clarity from a review, and it's missing here.

Or again, on the point about the DSM-IV being a response to Rosenthal, what I'd like to read is something along the lines of "Cahalan's book presents detailed evidence that the DSM-IV was [influenced/prompted by/etc] the reaction to Rosenthal's experiment".

In defense of the reviewer: the worst issue might be a case where the title simply promises more than the article delivers. And the reviewer typically doesn't write their title, so it may be the editor who is to blame.

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10. mnemon+sb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 02:36:52
>>unisha+D5
If you mean Freudian psychoanalysis, you're right. Freud was a quack. The word "pseudoscience" was literally coined just to describe him.

If you mean all psychotherapy is bullshit, you're wrong. There are bad therapists just like with everything else, but good psychotherapists have saved a lot of lives over the years.

And if, on the off chance, you think all therapy is bullshit despite never having had therapy yourself... well, nobody is that stupid, right?

replies(2): >>harry8+aE >>pellip+Pi1
11. Merril+Mb[view] [source] 2020-01-27 02:41:27
>>hyperp+(OP)
It no doubt aided the movement to deinstitutionalize patients with mental illness. Between 1955 and 1994, most state hospitals for the mentally ill were closed. This was done with the best of intentions, but the implementation led to the current mess where many severely mentally ill people are without adequate treatment and are homeless or imprisoned.
replies(1): >>aksss+Jp
12. mnemon+ic[view] [source] 2020-01-27 02:48:15
>>hyperp+(OP)
Did it set back psychiatric practice? Maybe not. But did the Rosenhan experiment set back the public perception of psychiatry? How could it not? If you remember that suicide hotlines are life-saving interventions, and that a lot of don't call them because they think they're staffed by "head-shrinkers"...

At the very least, Rosenhan convinced a lot of people that the Church of Scientology might be right about something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry

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13. 77pt77+Vk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 05:32:25
>>ttctci+p5
> Interestingly, the article makes no mention of the followup experiment where it seems a hospital invited a repetition and then claimed to have found 40 or so fake patients during the agreed period.

The reason is simple. This article is pure propaganda along the lines of the book "The great pretender" by Susannah Cahalan.

The experiment might have flaws, but this second part is conclusive and no critics ever address it.

This is just another brick on the long propaganda road to a destination that is very worrisome.

replies(1): >>warbak+nG1
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14. 77pt77+7l[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 05:35:05
>>taurat+02
Not enough.

This article is nothing but propaganda.

These experts never explained why homosexuality was considered a mental illness and later that decision was reverted. Neither of those changes was ever justified.

It's almost like those decisions are made with no objective criteria.

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15. aksss+Jp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 06:59:39
>>Merril+Mb
There's a great graph[1] showing per capita US institutionalization rates from 1934-2000, differentiating between prison, mental institutions and the combined total. The aggregate rate of US institutionalization is about the same as it was in 1954ish, the holding pen has just changed.

The graph is from a blog post on Volokh Conspiracy[2] about a paper from American Criminal Law Review [3] entitled "Is Mass Incarceration Inevitable"

[1]https://d2eehagpk5cl65.cloudfront.net/img/q60/uploads/2019/1...

[2] https://reason.com/2019/10/08/in-mass-incarceration-inevitab...

[3] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3436933

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16. harry8+aE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 10:56:27
>>mnemon+sb
Any citations?
replies(2): >>superh+YE >>mnemon+aS
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17. superh+YE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 11:09:13
>>harry8+aE
This is a pretty strong starting point:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Comb...

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18. smiley+jG[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 11:30:59
>>ttctci+p5
>article makes no mention of the followup experiment where it seems a hospital invited a repetition and then claimed to have found 40 or so fake patients during the agreed period

'a hospital' - which hospital?

Makes sense to carefully re-examine the other claims of the paper.

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19. mnemon+aS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 13:46:30
>>harry8+aE
Within the humanities there will probably always be a lot of people who love Freud because he lets them say subversive things about society.

But in the sciences he’s been debunked. Any Psych 101 book will tell you his methods are no longer used. Their most direct descendant, psychodynamics, is very different from its ancestor.

Within the sciences, check out Karl Popper’s work on falsifiability. Freud is his example of pseudoscience: it sounds smart, and it can explain lots of things in retrospect, but if you write down it’s predictions in advance they often don’t match outcomes. Practitioners don’t acknowledge this or try to correct it.

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20. pellip+Pi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 16:25:40
>>mnemon+sb
not op, but I think OP is talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis

and not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotherapy

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21. warbak+nG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-27 18:24:38
>>77pt77+Vk
My default position on the follow-up is likewise skepticism. It seems like the filters at the time were so low that it is likely the follow-up is just a better constructed lie.
replies(1): >>77pt77+eR2
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22. 77pt77+eR2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-28 05:39:36
>>warbak+nG1
What about the argument, used at the time, that in order for someone to participate in an experiment like that they had to be mentally ill?
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23. smiley+pH4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-01-28 20:43:15
>>s1arti+X3
Late to this; but here's a Q&A with the author which may shed some light:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?466007-1/qa-susannah-cahalan

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