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1. pjc50+(OP)[view] [source] 2019-07-02 16:12:44
China was never really not a police state of some sort. The ancient Imperial system broke down at the dawning of the modern era, and the Kuomintang "Republic of China" arose to replace it. It never managed to achieve either internal security or nationwide fair elections, and got into an extremely brutal fight with Communist insurgents. The communists were forced into retreat (Long March) during which most of them died - but the survivors, Mao among them, were inured to brutality. Eventually the Communists won on the mainland, leaving the Kuomintang in control of the island we now call Taiwan. The shooting stopped but the war is still officially in progress, hence all the weirdness around recognising Taiwan.

The key to Communism in the Maoist approach was absolute central control and the sweeping away of all obstacles; if you stood in the way of, objected to, or even were insufficiently enthusiastic about its plans you would be murdered.

Economic control was gradually loosened in the latter half of the 20th century, but political control remains tight.

replies(1): >>0815te+J1
2. 0815te+J1[view] [source] 2019-07-02 16:22:41
>>pjc50+(OP)
> China was never really not a police state of some sort.

Even ancient Imperial China was very much like this. To the point where China basically had no such thing as a legal system in the Western sense! The only kind of dispute resolution was mutually-assured destruction via criminal-like prosecution, basically "If I think you've been trying to cheat me out of something, I can get government goons to beat you up, for theft or whatever." And the government goons often beat up both disputants, for good measure. It's surprising that they even managed to build a halfway-functioning society and keep it going for thousands of years, out of such crudities.

replies(2): >>Burnin+R2 >>gowld+7x
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3. Burnin+R2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 16:29:06
>>0815te+J1
But that's what's interesting about China!

It's an alternative civilization!

The last 30 years we've seen it develop at a rate that is obviously impossible given the experience of all other countries. Yet this, very different, country does it.

It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes, even from systems everyone "knows" shouldn't work.

replies(2): >>pjc50+n3 >>npongr+K7
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4. pjc50+n3[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 16:31:46
>>Burnin+R2
How is it "obviously impossible"? Most of the developed countries went through rocket growth phases at some point.
replies(1): >>m4rtin+W6
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5. m4rtin+W6[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 16:53:21
>>pjc50+n3
Yeah, for example Japan had crazy rate of growth for quite a while after WW2.
replies(1): >>Burnin+4j
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6. npongr+K7[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 16:56:59
>>Burnin+R2
> It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes...

I've been lucky not to experience this myself, but I imagine it is bad to experience the "different outcomes" firsthand when the governance system -- novel as it might appear from a distance -- has foundations in violent suppression of individual freedom.

replies(2): >>Burnin+rj >>lopmot+pa1
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7. Burnin+4j[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 18:03:01
>>m4rtin+W6
Japan already was a rich industrialized nation before WW2.

China was one of the poorest countries on earth in the 1980s.

replies(2): >>pjc50+OE >>learc8+mF
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8. Burnin+rj[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 18:05:31
>>npongr+K7
Of course.

Then again, when some lunatic American colonists tried an alternative system of governance everyone knew was absurd and evil, it worked out surprisingly well.

I guess what I most of all am arguing against is unified world government.

replies(5): >>18pfsm+er >>pjc50+9E >>tomato+bE >>darkpu+UG >>zwaps+DH
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9. 18pfsm+er[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 18:51:29
>>Burnin+rj
I think most reasonable people agree with the idea of pluralism, and benefit to diverse approaches to governance. However, I think your original take ignores the fact that China has stood on the shoulders of Western liberalism and the 20th century innovation it has produced. IP theft and mercantile trade policies can only work when existing alongside an innovative and free enterprise system which they can exploit for unilateral benefit.
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10. gowld+7x[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 19:28:28
>>0815te+J1
Why is it surprising? Maybe the Chinese have discovered the only way to build a lasting civilization that doesn't bomb itself into oblivion every century like Europe does.
replies(1): >>darkpu+4F
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11. pjc50+9E[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 20:14:48
>>Burnin+rj
> alternative system of governance everyone knew was absurd and evil

Kind of ridiculous hyperbole here; there may have been the usual establishment bootlickers saying that, but the US was hardly the first Republic in the world.

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12. tomato+bE[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 20:14:48
>>Burnin+rj
Ironically, one of the most controversial parts of the Annapolis Convention (which came up with the current US constitution after it was decided that the articles of confederation used since before independence didn't work) was the question of whether an effectively national government/republic over an area as large as the then 13 states was actually possible to operate as a democracy.
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13. pjc50+OE[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 20:19:17
>>Burnin+4j
China was a nuclear power since 1964. Part of the reason Nixon had to go there in the first place.
replies(1): >>Burnin+3K
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14. darkpu+4F[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 20:20:53
>>gowld+7x
That's ignorant. The Taiping Rebellion was comparable in death toll to the world wars, despite the technology involved being significantly more primitive.

No poison gas, no aerial strategic bombing, no blitzkrieg, dive bombers or machine guns. But 20-70 million people dead nevertheless.

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15. learc8+mF[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 20:22:40
>>Burnin+4j
>Japan already was a rich industrialized nation before WW2.

Look at the previous century and how quickly they modernized.

As for other examples of extreme growth this century. Look at South Korea, Taiwan, the USSR etc... China shows a difference in scale due to population size, but it's growth rate was certainly not unprecedented.

replies(1): >>Burnin+DK
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16. darkpu+UG[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 20:35:11
>>Burnin+rj
> "Then again, when some lunatic American colonists tried an alternative system of governance everyone knew was absurd and evil, it worked out surprisingly well."

Are you sure they did? At the time republicanism was in vogue because Roman classicalism was currently in fashion. However these same men (particularly Hamilton) spoke very negatively about democracy, considering it a road to tyranny.

So at the time, democracy was considered absurd and perhaps evil. But were republics? The UK had an experience with republicanism before America, under Cromwell (that left a bad taste in the mouths of many monarchists) but even so it changed the way a lot of people thought. John Locke for instance predates the American revolution.

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17. zwaps+DH[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 20:39:59
>>Burnin+rj
Of note here is that the American lunatics and the Chinese lunatics exactly evoke the opposite concern in people.

For the United States, many land owners were concerned with these radical ideas of free people and a republic, e.g. breaking away from autocracy, because they believed that people would be inherently prone to chaos and violence.

For China, the opposite is true. People are concerned about the autocratic dictatorship that subdues personal freedom to the goal of the PRC and state, as they believe human progress, kindness and trust will be stifled and ultimately destroyed in such a system.

I find it quite interesting.

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18. Burnin+3K[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 21:01:53
>>pjc50+OE
True, but you can't eat nuclear bombs.

China was a communist military dictatorship. All resources went to the military, while millions starved to death.

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19. Burnin+DK[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-02 21:07:29
>>learc8+mF
I actually think it is unprecedented!

Not only was China poor on an African level. It had a communist command economy. Compare to how the former Soviet block countries have floundered in the same period, despite starting from a higher economic level.

Maybe South Korea and Taiwan are comparable, I don't know. China's rise is still by its size the biggest event in world history the last 30 years. And no one in 1989 would have predicted it.

replies(1): >>learc8+7ta
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20. lopmot+pa1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-03 02:06:16
>>npongr+K7
Are you sure you're not experiencing it right now? There aren't many countries that weren't founded on violent suppression of individual freedom - either through war, (probably with compulsory conscription), occupation, or a low-freedom society like feudalism or tribalism.

When you say individual freedom, I think you really mean individual political freedom. Excluding Xinjian, China has probably more freedom in day-to-day life for individuals than, say, America because it has less violent crime, less imprisonment, and lower regulatory barriers to doing business. It might be that it can only achieve these good things by restricting political freedom.

Even when they do restrict individual freedom, like with the one child policy, and internal travel restrictions, that has the aim of making the overall society better. There's a trade-off between individual freedom and survival and growth of the society. Too much freedom is anarchy and too little is totalitarianism. Where is the sweet spot?

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21. learc8+7ta[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-07-07 18:27:37
>>Burnin+DK
>Maybe South Korea and Taiwan are comparable, I don't know. China's rise is still by its size...

That's what I said. Other developing countries have grown just as fast or faster. The difference is that China happens to have the largest population in the world.

>Not only was China poor on an African level. It had a communist command economy. Compare to how the former Soviet block countries have floundered in the same period, despite starting from a higher economic level.

China voluntarily introduced capitalism in a controlled fashion. Former Soviet countries were the remnants of a collapsed nation. They aren't particularly comparable during the time period you're looking at.

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