zlacker

Zoho.com CEO says domain with 40M users suspended for abuse complaint

submitted by achyne+(OP) on 2018-09-24 17:55:18 | 500 points 228 comments
[view article] [source] [go to bottom]

NOTE: showing posts with links only show all posts
7. unstuc+a4[view] [source] 2018-09-24 18:27:26
>>achyne+(OP)
A whole lot of people are learning about the hazards of centralization in email lately. First Google turns GMail into a slow-loading nightmare for weaker computers like mine, then they announced the closure of Inbox. Now 40 million people are without email because Zoho couldn't keep up with registrar consolidations (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18060013).

Zoho is fine as a service, but a domain suspension shouldn't cut tens of millions of people off from email.

28. lifty+4a[view] [source] 2018-09-24 19:04:33
>>achyne+(OP)
I really hope https://handshake.org will catch on. It has the potential to solve a few very hard problems (PKI and online identity) without fundamental changes to the way the Internet works.
◧◩
31. dsp123+Ha[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 19:08:41
>>foo101+75
There are several layers where a registrar has control over DNS resolution.

Terms:

ICANN: The organization responsible for coordinating the maintenance of the domain name system (among other things).

Registrar: A company authorized to update ICANN database on behalf of registrants. Google, GoDadddy, Enom, etc are registrars

Registrants: An entity that wants to register a domain name. In this case, Zoho is a registrant, but it could also be an individual. This is your role if you 'own' a domain.

Authoritative Name Server: A domain name server that is considered authoritative for a specific domain.

Stuff registrars can do (among other things):

1.) They can update the ICANN database to disable a domain completely[1]

2.) They can replace your authoritative name servers with their own or someone else's (ex: botnet domains being reassigned to a security company for dismantling via court order)[2]

3.) If the authoritative name servers for a domain are owned by the registrar, then the registrar can merely change the DNS entries themselves to point to something other than the domain owner's wishes.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANN

[1] - https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/epp-status-codes-2014-...

[2] - https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/guidance-domain-...

51. walrus+Rj[view] [source] 2018-09-24 20:15:23
>>achyne+(OP)
This is a hard lesson for people that no matter how resilient your authoritative DNS infrastructure is, for your own nameservers (plus route53 or similar), your domain registrar is absolutely a single point of failure.

If you have something with 40M customers I'd highly recommend going with the same domain registrars used by some of the Fortune 100 companies.

Seizing a domain at the registrar level, by court order, is also how the US government implements "seizure" of domains, if you've ever seen a torrent index site that has suddenly been replaced with a big scary FBI page (examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=this+domain+has+been+seized+... )

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
55. Thaxll+vl[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 20:29:25
>>Alupis+Ak
Google uses markmonitor:

Domain Name: GOOGLE.COM

   Registry Domain ID: 2138514_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN

   Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.markmonitor.com

   Registrar URL: http://www.markmonitor.com

   Updated Date: 2018-02-21T18:36:40Z

   Creation Date: 1997-09-15T04:00:00Z

   Registry Expiry Date: 2020-09-14T04:00:00Z

   Registrar: MarkMonitor Inc.

   Registrar IANA ID: 292

   Registrar Abuse Contact Email:
abusecomplaints@markmonitor.com
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
59. Operyl+em[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 20:35:23
>>tomnip+Kl
Doesn't seem to be true, for my domain registered at Google:

Registrar: Google Inc.

Registrar IANA ID: 895

Registrar Abuse Contact Email: registrar-abuse@google.com

Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +1.8772376466

Verify yourself at: https://www.iana.org/assignments/registrar-ids/registrar-ids...

Zoho is Zoho Corporation Private Limited IANA ID: 3803

◧◩◪
63. hsk082+ln[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 20:43:33
>>yjftsj+Lh
Like namecoin? or https://handshake.org
◧◩
66. krn+io[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 20:48:41
>>TekMol+Ib
> What is considered a reliable registrar in Europe?

I heard a lot of good things about German INWX[1], even though French Gandi[2] is more popular and is the registrar of ycombinator.com (and was the registrar of reddit.com until recently, before they moved to MarkMonitor).

[1] https://www.inwx.de/en

[2] https://www.gandi.net/en

◧◩◪
71. krn+vq[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 21:01:40
>>tlampo+7a
It sounds like the spammers found a way to automatically create new @zoho.com email accounts, and the single way to stop them might be using a CAPTCHA service from the direct competitor, Google. At least that was the unfortunate case for the privacy focused German email provider Mailbox.org[1]:

> We recently detected activities on our servers where bot nets were used to create hundreds of thousands of e-mail accounts for the sending of spam e-mail. Although we take this as a compliment – somebody out there must be convinced our infrastructure is up for the job – we needed to find a solution to stop this abuse of our service, of course. We subsequently deployed a number of different CAPTCHA systems to help our servers identify bots during registration. However, spammers were able to circumvent all these solutions shortly after they were put in place. [...] We therefore decided to use Google’s CAPTCHA for the time being, because out of the set of solutions we tried thus far, this one seems to work best.

[1] https://userforum-en.mailbox.org/knowledge-base/article/goog...

◧◩◪◨
80. keving+ww[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 21:55:21
>>TekMol+fn
Ah I see, beg your pardon, I misunderstood your question. If you’re looking for domain registrars located in Europe I can only suggest one as I don’t have much experience dealing with others. Epag [1] has always been nice to deal with.

[1] - https://www.epag.de/en/

◧◩◪
82. TimWol+Vw[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 21:58:37
>>krn+io
I can highly recommend INWX. What I like about them is that the service they provide is domains only (I don't consider their web hosting offers [1] seriously). Thus no conflict of interest and resources are focused on a good domain service.

[1] https://www.inwx.de/en/hosting

◧◩◪◨
93. glenng+DA[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 22:33:39
>>krn+vq
If you’d like to use a strong captcha approach without using a competitor you might want to check out http://funcaptcha.com (I have no affiliation, have heard good things and been presented it on a couple of sites)
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
105. Androi+MD[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 23:06:38
>>lbrine+aB
Sure they are, if you register a .com the registrar is "Amazon Registrar, Inc." since 2016 or so (https://www.icann.org/registrar-reports/accredited-list.html). For some other TLDs, they might outsource it.
◧◩◪◨
107. caffei+0E[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 23:09:20
>>waffle+3y
Basically, you have to go through the ICANN accreditation process, which is documented here:

https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/accreditation-2012-02-...

The cheaper, and easier way, if you're looking to start selling domains with a lower barrier to entry (but less control over how much you pay/how you sell your domains) is to find a white-label reseller registrar.

◧◩◪◨
108. Michae+pE[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 23:14:12
>>waffle+3y
> I've always been a bit perplexed as to how registrar's are created. How could I become a registrar?

In all that time of being perplexed, you never thought to do a simple Google search? https://www.google.com/search?q=how+registrar%27s+are+create...

◧◩◪
120. EB66+NH[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-24 23:57:01
>>tlampo+7a
As a network engineer for an ISP, I can tell you that StopForumSpam reports generally don't make it on our radar. Cisco Talos IP reputation, SpamHaus, SpamCop and various other DNSBLs do make it on our radar and are proactively monitored by most responsible ISPs.

That being said, the proper way to report abuse to an ISP is to email the official point of contact for abuse associated with their IP netblock. In the case of Zoho, that contact info can be found here: https://bgp.he.net/AS2639#_whois

ARIN rules require that all IP netblock owners provide a valid point of contact for abuse issues. ARIN validates the points of contact annually. I believe that RIPE, APNIC and LACNIC have similar rules.

If an ISP doesn't act on the abuse after it has been reported to their abuse point of contact, then you have a legitimate complaint against them.

◧◩
129. wp3816+EL[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 00:57:05
>>svembu+h3
Zoho has 40M users and apparently $350M in revenue. Why are you using a consumer grade domain registrar[0]?

The gold standard for any enterprise is MarkMonitor. You can pick any other enterprise level service which would mean you don't resort to lowering yourself to begging on Twitter to find a contact at a pivotal service provider

This has damaged you beyond DNS propagation, I don't know how anybody in tech is going to take you seriously again without some serious action

[0] https://www.tierra.net/

◧◩◪
132. azinma+tM[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 01:08:22
>>unixhe+P5
Don’t forget https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Dyn_cyberattack
◧◩◪◨
133. ted0+2N[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 01:19:11
>>kweks+tD
I obviously can't comment on this without any further information but I have to say that this sounds quite unusual. We have very strict policies regarding due process: https://www.namecheap.com/legal/general/court-order-and-subp...

Can you shoot me an email? ted [at] namecheap.com

◧◩◪◨
152. tomsch+LU[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 03:13:43
>>unstuc+Y4
https://mailinabox.email/ has worked well for me in the past
166. Animat+d31[view] [source] 2018-09-25 05:32:43
>>achyne+(OP)
Well, of course. Look what business Zoho is in.[1]

"Email marketing software that drives sales. Create, send, and track email campaigns that help you build a strong customer base."

They don't have 40 million users. They have 40 million targets.

Of course they don't get many complaints. If you search for "zoho opt out", you get sent to a page with a HTTP 400 error.[2]

[1] https://www.zoho.com/campaigns [2] https://help.zoho.com/portal/kb/articles/what-does-email-opt...

◧◩◪◨⬒
177. monort+b91[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 07:04:38
>>ted0+2N
Here is the second victim with a similar story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18063667

Is the problem systematic?

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
197. highcl+as1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 11:36:49
>>Someth+FS
Check out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14139288

Never use namecheap for anything important.

I almost has a domain frozen with namecheap after one warning. If I missed the warning email or checked my email after 24 hours they would have completely suspended my domain. I'm talking about a site with MILLIONS of visitors per month and ten thousands of posts per day, not some small blog.

◧◩◪
199. highcl+Os1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 11:42:21
>>edm0nd+Xi
Namecheap is just as bad, check out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14139288

I almost has a domain frozen with namecheap after one warning. If I missed the warning email or checked my email after 24 hours they would have completely suspended my domain. I'm talking about a site with MILLIONS of visitors per month and ten thousands of posts per day, not some small blog.

◧◩◪
200. highcl+6t1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 11:44:53
>>ted0+qC
Namecheap is just as bad.

I run a forum site with MILLIONS of visitors and about 5,000 TB of traffic per month. Namecheap.com suddenly sent me a link warning that they will suspend my domain completely within 24 hours, if I did not delete two problem images (which were inappropriate/troublesome images but in the context of the forum posts, "a very poor attempt at humor"). I deleted the images and avoided being suspended, but the way they threatened to suspend my domain due to two images was ridiculous. If I missed the warning email or checked my email after 24 hours they would have completely suspended my domain. I'm talking about a site with MILLIONS of visitors per month and ten thousands of posts per day, not some small blog.

They may be suitable for some blog, but I can now say to NEVER use them for any enterprise site.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14139288

◧◩◪◨⬒
208. CodeWr+fJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 14:14:57
>>Rajase+fa1
Did you see this comment? Just passing it along in case it is helpful.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18064197

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
215. ldarby+qG2[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 20:15:56
>>joesb+Fj1
If it's about using only Google's services, then yes I agree, but the point is if lots of random sites all decide to use Google for captchas.

This has already happened with tor and Cloudflare, but at least that changed for the better recently (see https://www.zdnet.com/article/cloudflare-ends-captcha-challe...). In that case it was just one CDN using captchas to discriminate against a group of users, so that one change by the CDN could fix the issue. If too many random sites are independently blocking or slowing down anyone not logged into Google, then that'll turn the web into Google's web.

◧◩◪◨
216. jamiew+aR2[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-25 21:45:36
>>themih+c32
Yeah you're right - Namecoin has a massive squatting problem. It costs only pennies to register a name which doesn't help.

One possible solution is a proof of work for name registrations, similar to the Onion Name System [1]. There is a short talk by Jesse Victors that explains it nicely [2].

[1] https://github.com/Jesse-V/OnioNS-HS

[2] https://youtu.be/zZzOVKPcIMg

◧◩◪
222. rajase+oq3[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-26 05:16:21
>>huhten+391
Further you can report to us using https://www.zoho.com/report-abuse/
◧◩◪
223. Animat+1t3[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-26 06:00:23
>>anumit+zm3
No, it's not. Nothing in "help.zoho.com" seems to work.

400 Bad Request in Firefox.

curl:

    curl https://help.zoho.com
    <html>
    <head><title>400 Bad Request</title></head>
    <body bgcolor="white">
    <center><h1>400 Bad Request</h1></center>
    </body>
    </html>
[go to top]