Or you can just disengage with Europe all together, which is an obvious choice for many small to medium sized companies, given the risks and costs involved.
Or, you're fine with a competitor who isn't afraid of entirely reasonable international laws coming in and eating your lunch.
We also considered all the additional liability we’d be taking on, and with that alone it was barely worth it based on the current EU customer base we have.
We’d also be very happy if one of our competitors started investing in the EU market. It’s worth about 10 times less than the US market in our industry, so having them chasing peanuts in Europe (and investing in compliance with European - absolutely not international - regulations) would be a truely fantastic outcome for us.
For us, it didn’t make sense to invest the amount of money we’d have to to establish compliance with the GDPR, or to invest in maintaining that compliance, and the liability that GDPR would introduce for us most certainly didn’t make sense.
Europe is worth almost nothing to us, we don’t market ourselves there because it’s a waste of money. The EU customers we have all sought us out, not the other way around. For us, the cost and liability is simply not worth it. I think you’ll start to see more businesses make this decision, based on facts and numbers. You can’t just cry that they’re all being hysterical or want to abuse they’re customers data and privacy. When you introduce expensive new regulations, that have very strong punitive elements, this is exactly what you’d expect to happen. Small to medium sized businesses will wear the most of the cost (while posing the least of the risk). Luckily for us, EU is worth close to nothing for us.
my company OTOH is choosing to apply gdpr principles globally.
I remember the time we had very good privacy policies but getting that project to be compliant with COPPA was still a significant effort, so I think I get where you're coming from.
Once we became compliant, quite frankly, I felt a lot safer and more confident in affirming that our privacy policies were very good. Maybe it was some kind of sunk cost syndrome, but I was glad we did (were forced to do) it.
I expect that, at least in some obviously global markets like most e-commerce, GDPR compliance (as opposed to throwing the towel like you) will be treated like a certification of being a relatively non-evil and non-amateur business, with a significant impact outside the EU.
Did you think about this before typing?
Clue: how many countries does an EU-wide law directly apply to? One? Or many?
My customers are all happy with my privacy policy, and not a single one outside of the EU has expressed any interest at all in the GDPR. We are actually compliant with a majority of the regulation, however there are some areas where we would have to re-architect to gain full compliance.
This is not in anyway a signal that we’re “not good enough” to handle our customers data. It is mostly a sign of a poorly written piece of regulation, that has more undefined edge cases than it has defined use cases.
We’re not going to be the only company that comes to this conclusion, so you can go around slandering anybody you like, but that’s not going to change the facts behind what is a rather simple business decision for a lot of people.
You’re incredibly naive if you think complying with regulations like this is going to be cheap and easy, and your even more naive if you think that compliance is going to mean anything other than a rubber stamp. I’ve seen PCI, Fedramp, ISO27k, SOC2... organisation that have been certified as compliant, but were in reality less than 10% compliant. The compliance industry is a joke worldwide, and everybody knows it.
Because our social media platform is open to all, we are addressing adhering to the GDPR. In spirit, we already do, but they want what amounts to 5 documents how we use metrics and user data.
(Edit: we use metrics only in a '20 new people signed up'. We treat all data as federal confidential data. We also abide by deletion requests - immediately all user data is zeroed out, and a script overnight removes the zeroed fields. If it should not have been entered, we also will nuke users on backups too.)
If you're doing things respectfully and the right way, the GDPR is a nuisance. If you were hoovering anything and everything, you're in for a bad time.
And given your comments above, I'd put you in the company of "Hoover, Dyson, and Electrolux".
Edit: > "My customers are all happy with my privacy policy,"
Do they have a choice, aside to never use your stuff? If do you force acceptance of the 'privacy policy' on usage of your service? If you, that is in direct violation of the GDPR.
Hope you never want to consider European citizens as a customer. Building in this respect is cheap, but is expensive if you ignore now.
Think of this as "California Emissions". Eventually the US will adopt, even if in defacto. Might as well be on the right side of the fence.
It is also international in that it applies to EU citizen date no matter which country it is held or processed in.
Our application is a financial one, so I’d say it’s reasonable to assume that it ends up with a lot more in-scope PII than yours does.
In spirit, we also comply with almost all of the GDPR. However, some of its undefined edge cases prevent us from fully complying with it without an expensive re-architecture project, and re-implementation of some of our toolset. The areas we don’t comply with are incredibly minor, and I’ve seen some people arguing that we’d fall within the GDPRs limits of flexibility. However, that’s not how we manage risk. No matter how confident we were, being wrong could potentially end our business with fines.
As I have said repeatedly, for many small to medium sized businesses that don’t have many EU customers, there is simply no reason to implement GDPR at all. The costs can be quite high, and the risk of getting it wrong is enormous and not survivable. This is one of the many unintended (although entirely expectable) side effects of the regulation. All you’re trying to do is spread FUD.
Comments like this come across like a personal insult.
For you an others, please refrain from such comments I see it shutting down interesting conversations(that help me understand additional view points).
The GDPR creates some new criminal offences that can be prosecuted through courts without the regulatory authorities being involved in Clauses 162 & 163.
Article 82 allows individuals to sue in court for compensation if breaches of GDPR rules cause harm.
The regulatory activities are on top of this.
I think that this point can't be over-emphasized, and I wish you had put that sentence in its own paragraph.
Risk (management) was also alluded to elsewhere in the comments in the discussion of "rules-based" versus "principles-based" regulation.
Perhaps characterizing certain business reactions as "panic" is grossly unfair, when they're merely sensible (or even somewhat excessive) risk-aversion reactions.
I've come to suspect that the HN readership has a high risk-affinity, not just because of the startup leanings, but also even because of the preponderance of programmers working in internet/web tech, possibly never even being exposed to an environment that's life-critical or money-critical (is there a word for that? fiduciary?). Given that, I also suspect there's also broad, possibly even unconscious assumption that risks like you're describing are no big deal, 80% compliance is more than enough, (always) ask for forgiveness instead of permission, and that sort of thing.
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with either risk-affinity or risk-aversion, as long as one is aware of it and it's not an unconscious bias.
Then they'll try to come back... after their EU user-base was kicked out and forced to find alternatives.
In Europe, because of classification systems surrounding IBM and Nazis, have chosen to be very proactive about the dangers of having too much data. It may be used right now in a good way, but the data can easily be used for very evil things.
The GDPR reminds me of a Target (chain retailer) advertisement where a 17 year old girl was being profiled and send pregnancy, maternity, and baby ads. The father was angry at Target sending his daughter this, until the daughter fessed up that she was indeed pregnant. How did they determine this? Shopping purchase records. The GDPR may not have stopped the first occurrence, but would have provided sufficient "bite" to ever stop this from ever happening again.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ...
If the original business couldn’t, its unlikely the competitor could.
I know in my business I’m shutting off EU sales.
I completely and utterly care about privacy, but things like not tracking IP address and allowing people to request removing them are a bridge to far. I can’t comply with that. I treat my customers important PII (names, addresses, etc) very delicately. But the cost of complying GPDR is too must.
It would be nice if the GDPR had a piece about “if a company refuses sales, even if they accidentally happen, the company isn’t liable” and/or “blocking EU IPs or redirecting to a no sale page is sufficient to avoid compliance”.
https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-23/
> In order to determine whether such a controller or processor is offering goods or services to data subjects who are in the Union, it should be ascertained whether it is apparent that the controller or processor envisages offering services to data subjects in one or more Member States in the Union. 3Whereas the mere accessibility of the controller’s, processor’s or an intermediary’s website in the Union, of an email address or of other contact details, or the use of a language generally used in the third country where the controller is established, is insufficient to ascertain such intention, factors such as the use of a language or a currency generally used in one or more Member States with the possibility of ordering goods and services in that other language, or the mentioning of customers or users who are in the Union, may make it apparent that the controller envisages offering goods or services to data subjects in the Union.
By blocking EU IPs the service is very clearly, unambiguously, not targetting EU residents.
and
> allowing people to request removing them are a bridge to far.
Are dissonant. You will have to pick the one or the other but you can't both care about privacy and not allow people to request removal of their data. That should be fairly obvious.
I keep smelling this false dichotomy: either you're complying with the GDPR or you're doing something nefarious.
Others may be arguing against the spirit of the law, the extent of the protections, the tradeoffs between data and privacy, or any of those topics actually related to data or its storage. I'm not, nor is the GP.
I'm arguing that businesses can make perfectly valid decisions regarding risk with respect to regulation that have little to do with the compliance in spirit.
For the sake of the topic however, I'd say that in this case the greatest risk is in not pushing to become compliant for the sake of future-proofing against legislation of this type. The mood of consumers and legislators worldwide is becoming increasingly pro-privacy and security.
Essentially, many businesses not looking to adopt GDPR compliant are winning the economic mini-game while getting beaten in the metagame.
I find it a bit frustrating that you would so clearly ignore the whole point of this sub-thread merely to repeat the same sentiment about privacy and security, which wasn't under debate in the first place.
Are you seriously suggesting that the GDPR is the end-all, be-all of data privacy regulation and that "legislastion of this type" will always be a proper subset of the GDPR, no matter the jurisdiction?
If not, then even your purported future-proofing rings hollow, especially for a company which already substantially complies with the spirit of the legislation, which is what we've been discussing here.
> Essentially, many businesses not looking to adopt GDPR compliant are winning the economic mini-game while getting beaten in the metagame.
I remain unconvinced that this is true, because of, again, risk. It seems credible to me that, for many businesses, the risk could easily not be worth it, regardless of others opinions on the ease of compliance or financial exposure (so far only unsubstantiated opinions, as we have no actual data on enforcement yet, and this is a pretty deeply political matter, as you yourself point out).
Moreover, I find it telling that you would refer to the situation as a "game". I expect the business owners in question (I'm assuming smaller business, in general) are more likely to view it a bit more soberly, in that they're running a business, not playing a game. As such, I don't expect they have a "mini" or a "meta", only decisions for which they and those that depend on them bear the consequences.
Hungary and Poland were under the Soviet boot, but a generation later they are going back to undemocratic and authoritarian governments. Eastern Germany was under the Soviet boot and they have far more neo-nazism than Western Germany who wasn't. So the 40 years seem to have made some long lasting damage instead of fostering as strong "never again" attitude.
On the other hand 12 years of nazi government have left a much more permanent "never aggain" against big brother in Western Germany. To my knowledge it's the only country on the planet where citizens' resistance made Google to stop deploying Streetview (where it might well be debatable whether Streetview is the worst big brother thing. But sometimes relatively minor issues raise big fears and hit big resistance, as it seems to be with GDPR for small US businesses)
If you block EU IPs but your business is targeting Europeans who are on holiday - well, you probably still don't need to comply with GDPR because you've demonstrated attempts to actively avoid European residents.
The test in GDPR is not "does any European ever use the service?" but "are you targeting them?"
That wasn't my point, though. It was that now only governments are allowed to gather and keep this data. Granted, the breadth of what's available to them may not be as great if they're mainly recording traffic with no access to corporate servers, but even that access can be periodically arranged given sufficient desire.
It certainly doesn't appear to be a false dichotomy to me. If your company has a European presence, you will be required to follow the GDPR. But for my purposes, companies that say they will support the GDPR globally will absolutely get my business before those that do not.
And there are plenty of areas where my data is used against me. Look no further than the recent cell phone location leaks, or facebook, or google.. The time for their siphoning every last shred of data is done.
> I'm arguing that businesses can make perfectly valid decisions regarding risk with respect to regulation that have little to do with the compliance in spirit.
And I, a customer, can make a very easy choice of "If you assert that you follow the GDPR globally, I will buy from you." I think of it like California Emissions, or other 'Better than average certifying bodies'.
How about cost of compliance? For example, just the fact that you need to figure out whether you are compliant or not costs money. If you ask for user consent, then you must be able to later show that you got said consent from the user to work that data. You also have to take into account the risk of fines if something somewhere goes wrong. We, as software developers, should be intimately aware of how things can go wrong despite everyone trying their best.
All of these things cost money. If the cost is greater than what the business from the EU brings in, then it's not worth it. The fact that there are people who immediately and only jump to the thought they don't care about privacy is very worrying.
As far as the public understands that complying with a new law is expensive, and why GDPR compliance in particular is expensive, it is obviously more expensive for "bad" companies: don't expect the same compassion and tolerance with which other types of customer disappointments (e.g. raising prices) are received. Your competitors who do not retreat from the EU are obviously caring more for customer privacy, and/or better organized, and/or less reliant on excessive data collection. They are not going to be considered stupid because they spend more than they should on doing the right thing.
You admit bad organization ("there are some areas where we would have to re-architect to gain full compliance"): not trying to comply with the GDPR is clearly not a "rather simple business decision", it's a decision to accept failure instead of losing even more money, and you aren't going to look good even if it's the rational choice in your situation.
That's the problem. What you seem to be espousing is exactly "my way or the highway" (where "my way" is the GDPR) or "you're either for it or against it", the very epitome of false dichotomy.
Why not actually address the middle ground that has now been clearly explained multiple times? In what way does that non-compliance equate to nefarious conduct?
> And there are plenty of areas where my data is used against me
And here, again, is the appeal to emotion. Where's the data in this case, not those other cases?
That just isn't true.
Considering amount of FUD spread about fines, even here, with fairly educated readership - I don't think you can really trust other people's cost / benefit analysis, even when they happen to have same variables with same values.
People are often wrong even in much clearer cases . . .
There have been enough leaks that the public knows even European governments spy on their own citizens.