zlacker

[parent] [thread] 69 comments
1. ben0x5+(OP)[view] [source] 2017-01-05 15:39:23
People should still be giving Google shit for decisions like that, even if they're not surprised.
replies(3): >>morley+84 >>fryguy+07 >>Pica_s+Mb1
2. morley+84[view] [source] 2017-01-05 16:05:16
>>ben0x5+(OP)
Why does Google deserve the shit for stopping people from taking money from them? I wouldn't think to give a department store shit for pressing charges against someone who smashed up a bunch of merchandise, whether or not the act was politically motivated.
replies(6): >>chrisr+c5 >>nilved+d5 >>ben0x5+lc >>timbre+Ze >>__jal+tl >>harpia+Ul
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3. chrisr+c5[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:11:29
>>morley+84
As far as I know, there are laws against smashing up a bunch of merchandise you haven't paid for, and the department store would probably press charges rather than taking advantage of the fact that they're part of a conglomerate providing medical insurance to refuse coverage to the protestors on shaky grounds.
replies(1): >>leeree+3a
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4. nilved+d5[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:11:29
>>morley+84
Are you trying to relate clicking ads to smashing up merchandise?
replies(2): >>kylebe+T5 >>notaha+79
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5. kylebe+T5[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:14:49
>>nilved+d5
Yes, he is. People get very sensitive (and illogical) when their income is put at stake.
replies(1): >>hsod+m8
6. fryguy+07[view] [source] 2017-01-05 16:21:10
>>ben0x5+(OP)
If you look at it as the extension performs fraud, then what Google did is completely defensible. And I feel that it does. You may not feel that way exactly, but it's certainly justifiable that the extensions actions defraud the ad network.
replies(2): >>mattle+08 >>dxhdr+nu
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7. mattle+08[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:26:15
>>fryguy+07
Fraud? If a user wants to automate his browser to click all ads encountered as he surfs, that's fraud?
replies(3): >>em3rge+J9 >>Analem+9a >>fryguy+0m
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8. hsod+m8[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:28:10
>>kylebe+T5
No need for personal attacks. While the analogy (like all analogies) is an imperfect one, there are clearly some parallels between the two situations and I think the comparison is interesting.

It's purpose is to get you to look at things from the other side: what would you do if one of your customers was intentionally harming your business?

To pre-empt a personal attack against me: I do not make a living from advertising.

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9. notaha+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:34:23
>>nilved+d5
Both actions are done with the stated intent of costing the target money. Sure, it only involves accessing URLs the public is actively encouraged to visit (in a manner intended to bring the system down) but so do many DDoS attacks...
replies(4): >>ben0x5+Dd >>doodpa+Xq >>nilved+4s >>type0+la1
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10. em3rge+J9[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:38:09
>>mattle+08
Fraud is a poor word choice, because it is a legal term. There must be a better word out there.
replies(1): >>otterl+de
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11. leeree+3a[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:39:50
>>chrisr+c5
Google's lobbyists may well be pushing for laws against "click fraud".

(I'm just guessing that's what they might call it.)

replies(1): >>chrisr+Ka
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12. Analem+9a[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:40:10
>>mattle+08
Yes? I'm honestly not sure how you could think otherwise. This is a clickbot just like any other.
replies(5): >>ben0x5+Vd >>heropr+ge >>mring3+xg >>pseudo+Ct >>_euvw+4w
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13. chrisr+Ka[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:42:30
>>leeree+3a
They might! The case they would have to make seems pretty shaky to me, but legislators have done some things that seem pretty ridiculous to me in the past, and I am sure there is plenty more coming.

That doesn't make acting in such blatantly bad faith until you are able to take legal action forgivable.

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14. ben0x5+lc[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:51:06
>>morley+84
I feel like we could come up with an analogy that captures more of the nuance of the issue. How'd we feel about it if Windows went around and uninstalled non-Microsoft-Office word processors, to stop competing companies taking money from the Office division?

Sure, Google wants to make money on ads and they're under no obligation to let people use their infrastructure to undermine that goal. But likewise, the people who get fucked over by Google compromising the Chrome ecosystem to defend their ad income are under no obligation to be particularly enthusiastic about it.

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15. ben0x5+Dd[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:56:32
>>notaha+79
A lot of things costing a company money are perfectly reasonable and we rightly complain if a company sabotages them. Things like leaving negative reviews/ratings, receiving refunds for defective products or shopping around to compare prices ultimately hurt someone's bottom line, so I think we can expect better from an analogy here.
replies(1): >>notaha+Mm
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16. ben0x5+Vd[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:58:11
>>Analem+9a
Who is the user defrauding? If they're not the site running the ads, they have no business relationship with the ad company, so the ad company really can't reasonably demand of them to only click certain ads.
replies(1): >>proble+uf
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17. otterl+de[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:59:02
>>em3rge+J9
Attorney here! (But not your attorney and not giving legal advice -- seek qualified counsel in your state if you need assistance.)

Sending automated clicks to ads arguably meets all the elements of common-law fraud:

(1) A false representation of fact (that the user clicked on the ad);

(2) Knowledge of the falsity (by the user installing and using the extension);

(3) Intent to deceive the party by making the false representation (that is the extension's stated purpose!);

(4) Reasonable reliance by the innocent party (by believing the "click" was real and intended);

(5) Actual loss suffered (by paying the owner/operator of the page containing the ad)

In my view, therefore, "fraud" is an applicable term.

replies(7): >>em3rge+ug >>pklaus+Gs >>dsp123+1w >>cortes+Hz >>ben0x5+sS >>type0+Sd1 >>tornad+QT1
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18. heropr+ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 16:59:17
>>Analem+9a
It's arguable. Fraud generally requires intent to result in financial or personal gain. There's no gain here for the user. There's gain for the advertising company at the expense of the company purchasing the advertisements.

But the advertising company is supposed to well-qualify their targets, right? It's on them for serving and charging for advertisements to people who don't want them or will 'click them' regardless of content.

replies(2): >>_audak+aq >>hsod+mz
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19. timbre+Ze[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 17:02:35
>>morley+84
> We wrote Google to ask the reason for this sudden move and they responded that AdNauseam had breached the Web Store’s terms of service, stating that “An extension should have a single purpose that is clear to users…”

They deserve shit for lying.

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20. proble+uf[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 17:05:55
>>ben0x5+Vd
Yes, you don't sign any agreement to see or click on ads. Clicking them is in no way fraudulent, just standard behavior.
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21. em3rge+ug[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 17:10:56
>>otterl+de
Since the packets are being sent to your computer, I consider the situation analogous to a someone coming to your home and then you replying to them with bogus information. Maybe that still fits this definition of fraud, in which case I would say I don't believe such fraud should be legally suable. I think the users property rights of their computer trumps the advertiser's complaint about fraud.
replies(1): >>WhiteO+Iw
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22. mring3+xg[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 17:11:10
>>Analem+9a
I'm pretty sure that, in the USA, choosing to click ads would be protected under the first amendment.
replies(2): >>ggggte+XI >>DanBC+7J
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23. __jal+tl[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 17:36:13
>>morley+84
Google deserves shit for using market power to stop the purchasers of personal devices from running software of their choice.

If the user does something with their device Google dislikes, Google can block the user from using Google services, or if they're doing something illegal, they can go that route.

This habit of retroactively removing functionality from devices is not OK. If Google relies on a business model other people hate, perhaps they should give some thought in to doing something about that.

replies(1): >>prirun+Ce2
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24. harpia+Ul[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 17:37:51
>>morley+84
I don't hold any bad feelings towards Google for banning AdNauseam. What I do hold against them is that they are not being open and transparent with their reasons.
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25. fryguy+0m[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 17:38:23
>>mattle+08
Yes. The intent is what's important to me. If it were an extension, like in the 90's when everyone was on dial-up, that pre-loaded links, and some of those links happened to be ads then that's one thing. The goal of that extension is to load pages faster since they've already been downloaded. That's not fraud. This extension clearly understands that links are ads and that clicking them will cost the advertiser money with no benefit to them. And then clicks them. That's what makes it fraud.
replies(1): >>Sir_Cm+vs
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26. notaha+Mm[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 17:42:46
>>ben0x5+Dd
I think "indiscriminately bombard ad networks with the intent of sabotaging the ad network's business" is a lot closer to my DDoS example (or smashing up a store) than "if a product proves to be disappointing, exercise my statutory right to a refund and/or tell people about it". I'd also feel Google could and probably should remove browser extensions whose distinctive feature was that they automated the process of submitting fake reviews or purchases/cancellations if they stumbled across a class of product the plugin designer disapproved of enough to want to harm the vendors' ability to continue selling it.
replies(1): >>ben0x5+Ds
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27. _audak+aq[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:00:31
>>heropr+ge
There is gain for the user, in the respect that they receive the service of their privacy being protected
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28. doodpa+Xq[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:05:49
>>notaha+79
Can you cite any evidence that the "stated" intent of AdNauseam is to cost the target money? According to their video, the intent is to protect the user's privacy by preventing advertisers from building an accurate personal profile of the user. You may argue that this has the effect of costing the advertisers money, but just because that is a result, doesn't make it the primary goal. It's certainly not AdNauseam's fault if the advertiser's business model depends on violating user privacy.
replies(1): >>notaha+6C
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29. nilved+4s[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:13:44
>>notaha+79
The stated intent of blocking ads is not to cost the target money.
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30. Sir_Cm+vs[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:17:20
>>fryguy+0m
That's not how fraud works.
replies(1): >>zaphar+FQ2
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31. ben0x5+Ds[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:18:11
>>notaha+Mm
I don't think you can reasonably frame clicking on too many ads as an act of sabotage. It's interfering with the metrics that some people who you don't necessarily have a business relationship use to make business decisions (like paying out money), but it's not obvious to me how you're obligated to be particularly cooperative in their gathering of the metrics. The system continues to work as intended, you're just not supplying it with the data its creators would ideally hope to receive. That also seems to contrast it with a DoS attack.

I agree that Google should probably remove browser extensions that are convincingly designed to facilitate actual fraud. I'd also be on board with Google removing a browser extension that was designed by a site operator to produce artificial clicks on ads on that particular site, since now there's someone involved who probably signed a thing saying they won't produce artificial clicks.

But my point with my examples was that you can harm someone's bottom line without it being fraud or otherwise illegal, so it doesn't just follow that if you harm someone's business, you're doing the equivalent of a DoS or smashing up their merchandise.

replies(1): >>notaha+vz
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32. pklaus+Gs[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:18:20
>>otterl+de
When I manually click an ad for a political candidate or party that I despise, am I committing fraud?

(Not saying that I do that, of course. Entirely hypothetical.)

replies(1): >>hsod+AA
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33. pseudo+Ct[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:21:51
>>Analem+9a
I often click ads with no intention of buying... just to redistribute money around to Google and website owners.
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34. dxhdr+nu[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:26:04
>>fryguy+07
Defraud: illegally obtain money from (someone) by deception.

That does not describe the situation in the least. AdNauseum is more akin mailing junk back to junk mailers using their paid postage. You show me an ad, which I did not ask to see? Fine, I'll click it, automatically. Enjoy.

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35. dsp123+1w[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:34:41
>>otterl+de
You're missing a few elements. One of which is, "the injured party’s right to rely thereon"[0] (unless that's what you mean by #4 above).

"A party does not have a right to rely on a representation if she is aware the representation is false, not enforceable, or not made to her."

It's clearly arguable that the ad network knows that a browser is able to click on an ad in an automated fashion. Thus, they do not have a right to rely on that representation, as it is not enforceable.

[0] - http://www.mitchell-attorneys.com/legal-articles/common-law-...

replies(1): >>dragon+1k1
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36. _euvw+4w[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:34:49
>>Analem+9a
In te Netherlands, we have stickers that we cab place on our real-life mailboxes: "No ads. No unspecified recipient." The advertisers (mailmen) are not allowed to ignore this sticker.

Am I stealing money from advertisers?

There is no such rule for online adverts. So what is a parent to do?

By blocking them and obfuscating through clicking I am protecting my own sanity, and that of my children. This is my "No/No" sticker.

replies(1): >>saghm+9M
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37. WhiteO+Iw[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:38:24
>>em3rge+ug
The distinction is automation versus manual process. If you manually reply with bogus information, then your illustration works. When you automate the process, there's no intervention on your part. Ad blocking is fine with me, but when you intentionally click on ads in an automated way, this becomes click fraud. There's a certain level of click fraud that is tolerated by Google, but AdNaseum takes it too far IMO.
replies(2): >>fapjac+UK >>type0+yd1
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38. hsod+mz[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:52:57
>>heropr+ge
I'm not a lawyer, but according to this definition the fraud perpetrator need not gain, only cause injury to the fraud victim:

"A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud

replies(1): >>heropr+kJ
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39. notaha+vz[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:53:30
>>ben0x5+Ds
> I don't think you can reasonably frame clicking on too many ads as an act of sabotage. It's interfering with the metrics that some people who you don't necessarily have a business relationship use to make business decisions (like paying out money), but it's not obvious to me how you're obligated to be particularly cooperative in their gathering of the metrics. The system continues to work as intended, you're just not supplying it with the data its creators would ideally hope to receive. That also seems to contrast it with a DoS attack.

Blocking an ad/tracker is being "not particularly cooperative", and fulfils the goal of not seeing ads or being tracked pretty well. The entire point of modifying an existing ad blocker to click everything, as stated by the creators is to disrupt the metrics to the point where the system doesn't continue to work as intended, and cost the indiscriminately clicked ad-purchasers an average of $1.58 per wasted PPC click, as they've taken the effort to estimate (see their FAQ).

I can't see how anyone can honestly argue that a tool whose creators openly state that its purpose is to indiscriminately "obstruct" and "resist" an industry to force it to change its business model by rendering its analytics worthless and wasting PPCers budgets isn't sabotage, irrespective of whether they agree with the desirability of the end goal.

replies(1): >>ben0x5+eO
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40. cortes+Hz[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:54:13
>>otterl+de
As far as (1).... making a web request is NOT a user saying they clicked an ad. That is an inference that the website owner is making, not a statement the user is making. The user never agreed to that.

This would be like if you are a dairy farmer and you notice people who buy cookies usually buy milk, so to make things simple you make an agreement to pay a store 25 cents for every cookie they sell (because you want to incentivize them to sell more cookies and therefore more milk). You couldn't then accuse a customer of fraud when they buy cookies but not milk. They never agreed to always buy milk when they buy cookies, that was just an assumption you made.

replies(1): >>dragon+ik1
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41. hsod+AA[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 18:58:59
>>pklaus+Gs
Seems like point 1 would not be satisfied, because you are actually clicking the ad. I suppose someone could argue that you're still deceiving them about your intent but it seems like quite a stretch.
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42. notaha+6C[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 19:06:14
>>doodpa+Xq
From AdNauseum's FAQ

Indeed it is marginally safer for one to simply use a strong adblocker and protect themselves. And it is also safer to stay at home rather than to attend a protest. But safety is not the only concern. Using an adblocker does little to change the status quo. AdNauseam, and the obfuscation strategy in general, instead presents a possible avenue for collective resistance; a means of questioning and perhaps, eventually, changing the system. But this is not for everyone. If your goal is primarily self-protection, it may not be for you...

So they're aware of the fact this is worse at protecting privacy than a simple blocker, and equally unambiguous about their objectives being to change the status quo by damaging ad networks' business models. And yes, they've calculated the direct cost of some of those clicks too:

As the precise cost generated by clicks is not visible to the client, AdNauseam calculates an estimate using an average value of $1.58 for each clicked Ad.

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43. ggggte+XI[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 19:52:09
>>mring3+xg
You'd be wrong. Many people, even Americans, don't really understand that freedom of speech doesn't mean you can do and say anything you want regardless of the context or consequences.
replies(1): >>ben0x5+uO
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44. DanBC+7J[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 19:53:37
>>mring3+xg
Has a US government agency tried to stop anyone clicking ads?
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45. heropr+kJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 19:54:48
>>hsod+mz
If we take that definition, what is misleading? Users are presented with something asking them to click and then they just automate the clicking. They aren't attempting deceit through their actions.

Now, if the advertiser knows that people are clicking things through a script, and has some clause with their agreement with the company that says 'We won't charge you when this happens' but charges them anyway, that would be deceit. But it'd be on the part of the advertiser to the company buying the advertisements.

replies(1): >>hsod+YX
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46. fapjac+UK[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 20:04:41
>>WhiteO+Iw
The intervention on my part is writing/compiling/installing/actively using the automation.
replies(1): >>WhiteO+9O
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47. saghm+9M[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 20:13:29
>>_euvw+4w
> In te Netherlands, we have stickers that we cab place on our real-life mailboxes: "No ads. No unspecified recipient." The advertisers (mailmen) are not allowed to ignore this sticker.

Wow, that's actually kind of amazing. I wish we had that in the US...

replies(1): >>type0+rc1
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48. WhiteO+9O[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 20:28:04
>>fapjac+UK
You could make that argument for any bot, but in the eyes of Google or myself, I see it as click fraud. I think Google made the right choice here. If you disagree with surveillance and want privacy, there are other tools available such as Ghostery and µBlock. They provide what you want without being retaliatory.
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49. ben0x5+eO[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 20:28:26
>>notaha+vz
Fundamentally I feel like sabotage involves something like me going to someone's place and destroying their equipment like in your original analogy, also I'm probably being really sneaky about it. Naturally there's a legal and moral right to me not coming over and fucking up their shit, and probably to not be sneaky in some ways.

But here, they are wasting their money because they decided that they'd pay some amount per click. That doesn't somehow confer a legal or moral obligation on me, some random third party, to behave in such a way that this is actually a good deal for them.

That whatever they measure when my browser follows an ad corresponds to some amount of human attention is a gamble they're making, and in no way comparable to the expectation that in civilized society, someone doesn't walk into your store and smashes your merchandise without being punished for it.

Next we're going to go around and fine people for leaving their TVs running without paying attention to the commercials...

replies(2): >>notaha+711 >>type0+Eb1
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50. ben0x5+uO[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 20:30:52
>>ggggte+XI
I suspect the comment is a frustrated response to American courts declaring that all kinds of weird things are somehow protected as "speech", not an unironic endorsement of the practice.
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51. ben0x5+sS[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 20:56:28
>>otterl+de
Is this analysis independent on whether I'm the party who gets paid for the ad clicks? It makes sense to me that if I make someone sign a thing saying I get money per click, and then go ahead and simulate clicks, I'm defrauding them, but if I'm just some random guy, why's it on me to play nice with their method of detecting clicks?
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52. hsod+YX[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 21:38:14
>>heropr+kJ
> They aren't attempting deceit through their actions.

You don't think so? Isn't the whole point of this extension to try and trick advertisers into paying for non-existent user engagement?

replies(1): >>aninhu+n62
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53. notaha+711[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 22:04:08
>>ben0x5+eO
You could use the same "they decided to publish the URL and make it serve data... no obligation on me to behave in a way that is actually a good deal for them" line of rationalisation to justify a DDoS attempt or computer worm.

That's why the relevant criterion here is is this software written for the express purpose of fucking up their shit?, to which the answer is obviously, yes and they've said as much, and acknowledged that if you just don't want to be tracked you're better off with a proper adblocker anyway.

If you want to leave your TV running without paying attention to the commercials, regular adblockers exist and are amongst the Google Web Store's most-downloaded apps.

replies(1): >>ben0x5+6j1
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54. type0+la1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 23:20:08
>>notaha+79
> Both actions are done with the stated intent of costing the target money.

No it doesn't, it is to obfuscate the results about your interest and make the information they sell about you - useless. They are not giving me any money so I have no obligation to provide truthful ad clicks either.

> (in a manner intended to bring the system down) but so do many DDoS attacks...

You can't be serious, it's not comparable to DDoS attacks. It is just obfuscation, pure and simple. It is not in any way unethical either, digital surveillance that ad companies practice is on the other hand very much unethical. When I visit one website, why should dozens of third parties be able to sella and that information? When did they ask my consent? The only way to make that info useless is to have automated add-on like this, if the majority would use it, we wouldn't have as big problems of ad networks spreading malware and proving government agencies with surveillance information.

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55. type0+Eb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 23:32:39
>>ben0x5+eO
> Next we're going to go around and fine people for leaving their TVs running without paying attention to the commercials...

Well that actually might happen someday. Not sure where, but some podcast on youtube was discussing almost just that. Electronics companies might strike a deal, where you have a smart tv with a camera and face recognition, where you get a good deal of channels cheaper if you watch the commercials. Also when you rent a movie via their streaming partner, you pay depending on how many eyes are watching.

Off course we all know how easy it is to game face recognition now, but in the future it might not be as Ai algos keep improving. Sadly I hate to see this day when we get to the level where most people will obediently watch the commercials because they can't pay trice the price. This kind of future seems both comical and disheartening, like someone would combine 1984 and They Live.

56. Pica_s+Mb1[view] [source] 2017-01-05 23:33:36
>>ben0x5+(OP)
One of the many things about humanity- we adapt to near all circumstances no matter how bad. And we adapt fast, in 20 years from cold-war showroom equality and egality to oligarchy without borders.

Oligarchs abusing there power? Not so bad, as long as it hits somebody else backyard. Even better, if it just never makes its way into the news.

All even, the democratic powers playing the great game again, condemning every country who doesn't want to be a feudal servant and go for a "Leave me alone" nuke-stance? And after all - hey we are still here, aren't we- so its not so bad.

People vanishing every night? Guess, one can get used to that, nobody of the vanished has ever complained. And hey, dropping housing prices, finally a solution to that.

To actually get a accurate, neutral moral "measurement" you would have to take a group and enclose them in the isolate standards of the past- and then have them write about how they perceive today.

The interesting measurement question- if there is one, is what is left that those in power could do- they wouldn't get away with? That couldn't be swept under the rug, that once really tied the room together?

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57. type0+rc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 23:41:24
>>saghm+9M
I have such sticker but not anyone is actually following that. It helps to shout at ad mailmen sometimes when I notice them. I'm much more irritated over political junk mail.
replies(2): >>_euvw+zh1 >>saghm+Eh1
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58. type0+yd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 23:53:29
>>WhiteO+Iw
You're joking right? You obviously never automated bogus reply on the phone answering machine for one or the other reason. If you don't pick a phone at home and answering machine takes it, are you comiting a fraud because it is automated and telling everyone that you're not home.
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59. type0+Sd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-05 23:55:34
>>otterl+de
> (3) Intent to deceive the party by making the false representation (that is the extension's stated purpose!);

I think you are deceiving everyone that you are indeed an attorney.

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60. _euvw+zh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 00:37:05
>>type0+rc1
You could call the Advertisement Code Commission. See: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/bescherming-van-con...
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61. saghm+Eh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 00:38:08
>>type0+rc1
Sorry for my lack of knowledge about this, but are "ad mailmen" a specific thing in the Netherlands? In the U.S., junk ads just come in the regular mail.
replies(1): >>Brando+6F1
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62. ben0x5+6j1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 00:53:59
>>notaha+711
I don't think it's comparable, a DDoS attack is aimed at taking down a whole site, or otherwise making it inaccessible. Here the system keeps working as intended and the other side just has to deal with how the intentions turn out to be not very productive.
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63. dragon+1k1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 01:00:40
>>dsp123+1w
Knowing that it is possible for a representation to be falsified (what you describe the ad network as knowing) is very far from knowing that it is false (the branch of the standard you appear to be appealing to argue a lack of right-to-rely.) So, I don't think the argument, as you've made it, is convincing.
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64. dragon+ik1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 01:02:38
>>cortes+Hz
> making a web request is NOT a user saying they clicked an ad.

Whatever the merits of that argument might be in the general case, using an extension which expressly advertises its function to include falsifying clicks to mislead ad networks makes it hard to make the argument in that context.

replies(1): >>cortes+TT2
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65. Brando+6F1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 06:09:41
>>saghm+Eh1
If it is like in France (we have the same regulations) then you have two kind of junk mail :the one addressed to you (because they have your mail status, supposedly because you have it to them and agreed to get mail spam) and anonymous one (from supermarkets for instance, with their promotions or sales) which are delivered by someone payed by them. The stickers work for the latter (which is maybe 70% of the volume)
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66. tornad+QT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 10:19:00
>>otterl+de
A very large part of the globe does not follow common law.
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67. aninhu+n62[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 13:21:27
>>hsod+YX
But the user never makes any kind of claim or promise that their advert clicking represents real user engagement.

It's up to the advertiser to accurately classify user behaviour, and the user has no responsibility to make that easy for them.

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68. prirun+Ce2[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 14:45:57
>>__jal+tl
And users deserve shit for buying Chromecrap, then expecting Google to act in users' interests rather than its own.

Most large tech companies want to get a noose around users' necks. If you stick your head in the noose, guess what happens?

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69. zaphar+FQ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 18:36:17
>>Sir_Cm+vs
How is that not how fraud works. The extension practically bills itself as a form of protest intended to devalue an ad for an advertiser by acting in an intentionally deceptive manner.

It is generally understood and indeed reasonable to assume that in order for most users to click an ad they must first see it. This extension intentionally violates that in order to deceive that same advertiser.

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70. cortes+TT2[view] [source] [discussion] 2017-01-06 18:56:20
>>dragon+ik1
Right, but just because I know the inference that a 3rd party is making, am I under some responsibility to not change my behavior? I don't think I have some legal or moral responsibility to not troll someone watching me.
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