zlacker

[parent] [thread] 55 comments
1. jvm+(OP)[view] [source] 2016-05-01 22:21:50
The dynamic is a little different than in most other cities. What's really happening here is that cheap rent is a kind of entitlement in Berlin: rent controls extend across tenants so getting an apartment is really about persuading a landlord to take you rather than bidding at an appropriate price point. AirBnB gets around this by allowing rentals at arbitrary price points. This is true whether it's an owner or a renter doing the leasing, which is very different from other markets in which it's mostly a concern of renters abusing their leases.

> "The Berlin Senate’s ruling nonetheless reflects a general feeling across a city in which homes are getting harder to find: Berliners have had enough and they want their city back."

Translation: There is no pricing mechanism on rents in the city and it is becoming increasingly impossible to find an apartment.

While it's certainly true that AirBnB essentially allows landlords to flout the law, it's worth noting that the adverse effects of price ceilings on supply are the root cause of Berlin's problems and this will not solve the underlying problem of rents being far from equilibrium.

replies(4): >>jvm+g >>teh+Z1 >>daniel+J2 >>doener+X3
2. jvm+g[view] [source] 2016-05-01 22:26:34
>>jvm+(OP)
More on the slow-moving train wreck here [1]: http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/07/berlins-brand-new-ren...

TL;DR they're also placing tight ceilings on new development.

[1] This article is supportive but seems oblivious to the supply-side effects.

3. teh+Z1[view] [source] 2016-05-01 23:08:27
>>jvm+(OP)
I'm not sure it's that simple. In London we have no limit and it's now one of the most expensive places on this planet and despite that it's increasingly impossible to find an apartment.

Maybe there is some other cause (e.g. everyone wants to live in a city now)?

replies(3): >>nedwin+63 >>xxpor+L4 >>lauren+y6
4. daniel+J2[view] [source] 2016-05-01 23:23:09
>>jvm+(OP)
Capitalism always exists, whether you want to admit it or not. You can pretend there are no such things as prices by adding more and more epicycles to your model, or just admit they exist and then (for example) have a welfare state to compensate the non-winners.
replies(3): >>andy_p+04 >>xkcd-s+D8 >>dispos+pc
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5. nedwin+63[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-01 23:29:54
>>teh+Z1
How flexible are the density and new development policies?

Increased demand with no supply = increased prices and low supply.

6. doener+X3[view] [source] 2016-05-01 23:43:29
>>jvm+(OP)
A free market price would not fix anything - every tiny bit of flatland is already used. What you are saying is basically: Only rich people should have the right to live in central districts. I disagree and so do most Berliners.
replies(6): >>bobcos+i4 >>d_t_w+r4 >>zanny+x8 >>schrod+Rb >>tomc19+bh >>eru+Lo
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7. andy_p+04[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-01 23:44:32
>>daniel+J2
The easiest solution is always capitalism, I agree, I'm fairly certain however it's harder to find somewhere to rent in London and paying more in Berlin still reaps results (having lived there as an IT contractor for 4 months from London I should know). I think these things can be solved in Berlin much more easily than most capital cities (i.e. there is substantial space to build new homes that simply doesn't exist in London or New York say).

Simply saying "be more capitalist" might work, but I'd say build more quality homes on all the scratchy pieces of land that exist round Berlin is an equally good option above firing people into the weird world of London property.

Finally the AirBnB/rentals thing is a result I'd guess of the massive number of people who hate having tourists traipsing through their buildings. My experience at least centrally was of large shared blocks of high quality flats and a lot of suspicion around strangers being granted entry to said gated communities.

replies(3): >>quanti+f9 >>mahyar+qb >>eru+Jo
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8. bobcos+i4[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-01 23:48:40
>>doener+X3
Berlin has a population density ~1/3rd of New York's and a bit more than half of London's. Whether land is used or not is irrelevant, the question is how it's used. Also I'm sure there are a million absurd zoning/building restrictions, they always go hand in hand with the rent controls.
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9. d_t_w+r4[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-01 23:51:00
>>doener+X3
What mechanism do you use to choose who can live in a central district, if not the ability to pay market rent?

Right to live where you are born? That adversely affects anyone not born in a central district.

replies(4): >>tehrei+08 >>sgift+Gj >>alkona+jt >>pyrale+Cv
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10. xxpor+L4[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-01 23:54:57
>>teh+Z1
Yeah, the terrible zoning.
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11. lauren+y6[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 00:30:35
>>teh+Z1
In London it really is down to supply and demand. The UK economy is highly centralized in London and the South East, population in the metropolitan area is now at record levels having shot past the pre-War peak in the past few years. (The population of the South East never really declined but had shifted to the commuter belt.) For many careers you really have to move there if you want a good job.

Meanwhile many fewer homes are being built. The largest drop has been in building by local authorities, which used to account for almost half of all new builds before Thatcher brought things to a halt in in the 1980's by selling off social housing and preventing councils from investing the proceeds. (See: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n01/james-meek/where-will-we-live)

As real wages have stagnated for most people, multiple administrations have propped up demand through ever inflating house prices. People feel richer when their home goes up in value but this wealth is illusory, nothing new has been created, only a generational shift in capital as young people are forced to fork out ever more of their income in rent.

replies(1): >>branch+1g
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12. tehrei+08[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 01:02:02
>>d_t_w+r4
Random allotment (essentially first come first serve) is a lot more fair than allotment by power of money. If it's not about being fair to people, then why are you even here.
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13. zanny+x8[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 01:14:49
>>doener+X3
Remove zoning restrictions, reduce barriers to development, and let density rise dramatically to meet demand.

Dozens of cities around the world are suffering from rejecting capitalism of property and the consequences will be the long run slow bleeding out to locations more accepting of economic reality.

Even in the most expensive places to live - Bay Area, central Tokyo, Venice, etc - if builders could build to their hearts content and see rapid high-rise housing development (first to meet the wealthy demand, and gradually to meet all other demand that turns a profit) you end up with affordable low income housing and extreme growth for the whole metro area, which means prosperity.

IE, rather than holding back development and costing yourself tremendous fiscal gains, you let those happen and tax the fuck out of them to make life better for all those displaced. Use tax money from more unfettered capitalism to improve the situation of the poor, rather than holding back markets for the sake of the poor, who are then also worse off.

replies(2): >>Pxtl+Lc >>abetus+ei
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14. xkcd-s+D8[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 01:15:49
>>daniel+J2
How is a welfare state different from an epicycle such as rent control?
replies(1): >>fsloth+6m
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15. quanti+f9[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 01:27:36
>>andy_p+04
Being more capitalist is how you create the incentives that result in more quality homes being built on the scratchy pieces of land that exist around Berlin.
replies(1): >>dispos+Cc
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16. mahyar+qb[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 02:11:14
>>andy_p+04
London comes from capital going to it due to very low property tax rates and basically no income tax for wealthy foreign people via 'non-domiciled' resident tax law. Housing becomes a store of wealth / commodity investment vs. a thing you use like a car.

As a result a property investment bubble feeds on itself and creates the london problem.

To reverse that you make it unattractive as a store of wealth and attractive as an active investment via renting it out. And you remove supply creation limits. You would decrease the unfair demand side by taxing them like a typical UK resident.

Also zoning policy usually doesn't help at all with typical height limits.

replies(1): >>branch+kc
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17. schrod+Rb[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 02:17:18
>>doener+X3
The problem with making apartments a "free market" is that tourists on vacation are inherently willing to spend more money on a per-week basis than a permanent resident. Once enough apartments become bespoke hotels, the dynamic of the city will change, in my opinion for the worse.
replies(1): >>ericd+ie
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18. branch+kc[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 02:29:10
>>mahyar+qb
Also the govt has shown there is a put on property as the UK is a land pyramid scheme.

They bailed out all the banks to prop it up. After this help2buy (help2sell in reality) to have the govt underwrite risk when the banks stepped out.

This isn't capitalism.

replies(2): >>ghostD+Gr >>collyw+Hs
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19. dispos+pc[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 02:31:05
>>daniel+J2
American, libertarian, anarchistic capitalism has proved too extreme an overreaction to it's nemesis doppelgänger, communism. Democratic capitalism with sensible safety nets and evironmental regulations isn't as suicidal for us and the planet as what the Koch bros want. Furthermore, with deep learning and automation of most jobs (human-piloted transport, white-collar analyst jobs) will create millions upon millions of people without jobs or retrainable prospects while remaining, ultraefficient and uberprofitable businesses hoard cash while bleeding out the middle class, the engine of the economy. Lots of idle, unemployed, broke people is a recipe for unrest and civil strife.
replies(1): >>visarg+Ds
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20. dispos+Cc[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 02:36:28
>>quanti+f9
It doesn't, actually. In the US, there are just a few apartment consortiums which own the lion's share of the fleet of newer construction units. Anarchist capitalism encourage supply-side monopolist hegemony, not competition. Competition is undesirable for capitalists when supplying goods and services and optimally minimized, it is desirable by buyers but this is mostly irrelevant in an artificially-controlled supply market where demand is inelastic. If Hyperloop were rolled out across most continents, empty land could be "closer" to economic centers and housing supply would be effectively increased by widening the commute radius, making it more affordable.
replies(1): >>stale2+Hd
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21. Pxtl+Lc[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 02:39:14
>>zanny+x8
Tokyo is a city that is generally agreed to get zoning right, because the matter is not left to municipal levels. There is no NIMBY exceptions, no fixers, no hellscape of red tape, just simple nationally run zoning laws.
replies(2): >>orasis+4e >>nandem+Mn
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22. stale2+Hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 02:58:24
>>dispos+Cc
How do you think these capitalistic monopolies enforce their monopolies?

They do it through the government by creating arbitrary regulations and barriers to entry.

We are already living in a world where the housing monopolies are enforcing their will on the population.

Getting rid of these regulations, and allowing people to build so many houses that the market price gets driven into the ground, is how we take the market back for the people.

replies(2): >>sosbor+pj >>makomk+Il
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23. orasis+4e[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 03:05:41
>>Pxtl+Lc
You have the Yakuza to thank for a lot of that.
replies(1): >>nindal+Oh
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24. ericd+ie[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 03:09:00
>>schrod+Rb
There's not an unlimited supply of tourists, at some point that demand is exhausted.
replies(1): >>mamon+Xr
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25. branch+1g[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 03:55:54
>>lauren+y6
Planning permission is hard to get and greatly enhances land value. It is not supply and demand. Credit bubble with govt underwriting prices.
replies(1): >>lauren+3l
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26. tomc19+bh[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 04:26:33
>>doener+X3
Last time I was in berlin there was a fair amount of open space (Kreuzberg area)
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27. nindal+Oh[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 04:43:00
>>orasis+4e
> simple, nationally run zoning laws

> Yakuza to thank for that

Your pithy one-liner isn't very enlightening. Could you elaborate?

replies(2): >>superu+xm >>orasis+Qhf
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28. abetus+ei[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 04:51:07
>>zanny+x8
You make it sound so easy. From [1]:

    Let’s look at one of those deals in detail.
    In 2004, Frank McCourt sold 23 acres of open
    parking lots on the South Boston waterfront to
    News Corp. for $145 million ... Two years later,
    News Corp. sold the same land ... to Morgan
    Stanley for $204 million. ... When the
    BRA [Boston Redevelopment Authority] approved
    the Seaport Square Master Plan, paving the way
    for major development of midsize towers in 2010,
    the land finally had real value. ... To limit
    speculating, the BRA could have made Morgan
    Stanley’s Seaport approvals non-transferrable.
    But it didn’t.

    Instead, over the next five years, Morgan Stanley
    parceled out its 23 ...  acres ... for a total
    of $654 million. ...

    After changing so many hands, ... housing, like
    at Waterside Place, where a 598-square-foot
    one-bedroom can be all yours for $2,685 per month.
Where the ellipses ("...") have been added for brevity.

When the people who are engaging in housing development are shaping policy to maximize short term profit, this is the result.

I don't have a clear understanding of how to prevent this from happening but my strong suspicion is that better government regulation needs to be in place that holds the public interest at heart.

Disclaimer: I live in the Boston area.

[1] http://www.bostonmagazine.com/property/article/2016/02/21/bo...

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29. sosbor+pj[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 05:24:33
>>stale2+Hd
> allowing people to build so many houses that the market price gets driven into the ground

I live in Honolulu, Hawaii. Prices here are RIDICULOUS, but this is the last thing I want. At some point growth has to stop or we will lose what makes this place what it is.

replies(1): >>omegah+Fj
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30. omegah+Fj[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 05:29:24
>>sosbor+pj
Then the prices will keep going up and drive out the regular renters anyway. Either you expand, (up or out) or the place gets turned into a playground for the rich.
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31. sgift+Gj[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 05:30:07
>>d_t_w+r4
Right to live where you are born would be possible - it is neither better nor worse than the current mechanism, just different. But the question remains if there's a way to change market rate, so more people can pay it. Berlin seems to be trying that by banning things which aren't desirable from their perspective.

> Right to live where you are born? That adversely affects anyone not born in a central district.

Thinking about it, this reminds me of the question of immigration. People usually say that one shouldn't be allowed to immigrate wherever he wants and/or that politicans are beholden to the people of their country, not the whole world. So .. what's the difference between a city and a country here? Why should the city council not put the wishes of those born there first?

replies(1): >>pliny+Fm
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32. lauren+3l[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 06:00:11
>>branch+1g
While credit conditions are a factor in property prices they don't help explain the huge increase in London rents over the past 10 years which have gone up far faster than incomes.

The private rental market in the UK is all short term lets, after the first year the landlord is free to adjust the rent. With council housing now largely gone it's an unanchored free market. Restricting supply (e.g. through difficulty obtaining planning permission) while demand increases does of course drive up rents.

Property prices are a function of interest rates and rents. Credit conditions come into play here in determining how much a prospective home owner or buy-to-let investor can borrow and pay for a property.

replies(1): >>branch+LU
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33. makomk+Il[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 06:16:44
>>stale2+Hd
They do it through the fact that being a monopoly or oligopoly is inherently more profitable than not being one, so if you don't play along you're basically leaving money on the floor.
replies(1): >>stale2+Ym
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34. fsloth+6m[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 06:26:10
>>xkcd-s+D8
The aim of a welfare state is to redistribute wealth to a point where no-one needs to be afraid of dying of hunger, cold, or trivially treatable medical conditions and can have a primary education.

There are no pure market mechanism that would take care of these needs. I would not call a welfare state an epicycle.

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35. superu+xm[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 06:35:18
>>nindal+Oh
I've heard similar remarks in passing. The idea is something like this:

Democracy tends towards chaos and deadlock. There are too many cooks, and they all want different things, and they all have roughly the same amount of power. Usually nothing happens, and when something does happen it's a half-assed designed-by-committee nightmare.

When you see government acting swiftly, purposefully, effectively and succeeding at something difficult and expensive, it's because an autocratic force (like a political machine, or organized crime) has bent the democratic process to its will.

For example, only Mayor Daley could have pulled off Millenium Park in Chicago. To get something like that done in Chicago's dysfunctional government, you need to own people at every level and in every department. Only the Daleys have built empires on that scale, and other mayors in other cities don't wield nearly as much power (even if their legal entitlements are the same).

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36. pliny+Fm[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 06:38:17
>>sgift+Gj
>People usually say that one shouldn't be allowed to immigrate wherever he wants

That is a very weak position, do you actually believe things can be true because "People usually say that"? Either immigration between countries is wrong in some way that generalizes to immigration between cities, or you can't use the fact that immigration is by default illegal to support your position.

Not allowing unrestricted immigration between countries is usually a pragmatic consideration, that is related to how countries usually spend their money vs. how they earn their money. Social expenditure, for instance, is usually planned based on the amount of tax the state gets from an average citizen, importing a lot of people who will pay less in taxes means you either have to degrade the quality of service for everyone, or start discriminating between people when spending on them (which betrays the concept of welfare spending as a 'safety net' - it's supposed to serve people who can't earn enough to provide for themselves or their family). Sometimes anti-immigration sentiment is motivated by nationalism or racism, even to the extent that people aren't allowed to live where they were born, and it would be a shame to reproduce those ideas on a city level.

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37. stale2+Ym[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 06:45:25
>>makomk+Il
When monopolies exist, that means that there is currently money being left on the table.

Someone ELSE can come it, charge less, and get all the customers to go to them instead.

This is what allowing more houses to be built would do.

replies(2): >>michae+7t >>aninhu+Uy
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38. nandem+Mn[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 07:00:46
>>Pxtl+Lc
Here's a good overview of Japanese zoning regulations:

http://urbankchoze.blogspot.jp/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html

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39. eru+Jo[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 07:15:56
>>andy_p+04
The proper solution is markets plus land value taxation with revenues going to (or at least shared with) local bodies.

The land value tax aligns the incentives right, so that the local administrations have an incentive to put the proper regulations in place.

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40. eru+Lo[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 07:16:51
>>doener+X3
Berlin lacks tall buildings. There's always space at the top.

(The soil in Berlin is hard to build tall on. But money can buy engineering to work on this problem.)

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41. ghostD+Gr[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 07:59:41
>>branch+kc
It's the perfect capitalism: private profits, public loses, and then blame it to the non-free market.
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42. mamon+Xr[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 08:04:02
>>ericd+ie
especially considering that Berlin is not so interesting for tourists anyway :)
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43. visarg+Ds[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 08:15:52
>>dispos+pc
In the short run, people should have social protection. The first generations are going to be jobless and penniless otherwise.

But in the long run people are not going to just sit around collecting UBI. They can still work, but on other things. Society will develop new areas of interest in which it will invest the available money. The focus will fall on science, sports, culture and social projects, which are going to keep everyone busy and at the same time advance us even further.

As society changes, education will have to adapt to the new requirements. There will still be jobs, but in domains that perhaps now are not even imagined.

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44. collyw+Hs[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 08:16:29
>>branch+kc
Don't forget 8 years or so of "emergency" low interest rates.
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45. michae+7t[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 08:20:37
>>stale2+Ym
For infrastructure companies, Once you have a national monopoly if any small company undercuts your prices you can cut your prices in their area only, subsidised by profit from the rest of the country, so the upstart loses money on their investment.

Thus preventing them from bootstrapping, or demonstrating profits to investors.

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46. alkona+jt[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 08:22:57
>>d_t_w+r4
A queue is the usual solution. That makes it pretty much "right to live where you were born" since that is when you add yourself to the back of the queue.

It's not a very efficient solution (no one can move to the city for a job since you need somewhere to live within months then - not decades). It also needs very draconian rules to avoid a large black market in contracts.

There are no good solutions to this problem. If you are a socialist you argue that the lesser evil is inefficient queueing and if you are an economic liberal you argue that allocating via market prices is better and gentrification/segregation is the lesser evil.

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47. pyrale+Cv[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 09:06:27
>>d_t_w+r4
Right to live where you work seems to be a good one. The problem with AirBNB isn't about too many people living in an area like SF, it's about local population being displaced in favor of richer, temporary visitors.

It's certainly a nice thing to be able to travel and visit other cultures and countries. But the advent of massive international transportation combined with few tourism hotspots has created a tourism industry that can outprice locals, and thus destroy the cultures that created the artefacts they show to tourists.

replies(1): >>mafrib+f71
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48. aninhu+Uy[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 10:08:23
>>stale2+Ym
>Someone ELSE can come it, charge less, and get all the customers to go to them instead.

Except there are huge entry costs, and all that theoretical ROI disappears as soon as you enter the market, because the existing monopoly starts competing.

To make a profit, you need some advantage over the them, like efficiency, innovation or goodwill. If all you can do is exactly what they do but at market price, well... they can do that too.

replies(1): >>stale2+Kr2
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49. branch+LU[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 14:30:59
>>lauren+3l
Rents in the UK are utterly outstripped by price rises. This is because rents are set by wages whereas prices are set by available credit (and outside money if like the UK you allow full money laundering through land).

I agree loose credit is the primary cause. However that wasn't what my post was about, I was challenging the assertion that planning permission is easily gained. It's not.

Restrictive planning is vital for creating artificial scarcity. To ramp prices with loose credit you have to push supply below demand to create an auction scenario.

replies(1): >>lauren+kb1
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50. mafrib+f71[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 15:47:34
>>pyrale+Cv

   Right to live where you work seems to be a good one.
The people who work in the center (often government, large companies) are usually also the most well-off, so living close to work is to a good approximation what you'd get with market prices.

   temporary visitors.
Temporary visitors typically visit the center which is where most of the cultural landmarks as well as the party-infrastructure is located.

If we generalise the "live where you work" to "stay where you spend most of your time, then it makes a lot of sense for the visitors to be housed in the centre. Otherwise you force a large amount of commuting on them. For course that doesn't matter much for each individual visitor because they are around only for a short time, but that's not the right metric. It means that Berlin's infrastructure is heavily taxed with all that unnecessary commuting by (every changing) visitors.

replies(1): >>pyrale+Az2
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51. lauren+kb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-02 16:11:10
>>branch+LU
I never made the assertion that planning permission was easily gained.
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52. stale2+Kr2[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-03 03:00:33
>>aninhu+Uy
How would that apply to the Bay Area Housing market?

If someone started building a whole bunch of housing in SOMA, do you believe that this ROI would disappear quickly, due to housing prices hitting rock bottom?

Do you really believe that would happen?

replies(1): >>aninhu+FU2
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53. pyrale+Az2[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-03 04:57:41
>>mafrib+f71
> If we generalise the "live where you work" to "stay where you spend most of your time, then it makes a lot of sense for the visitors to be housed in the centre.

The thing is, it completely reverses the meaning of my point, which was based on concern priority, not transportation efficiency. To me, it seems important that people whose home, job and lifestyle/culture is at stake are treated preferably to people for whom the city is just a tmporary leisure.

By making sure that visitors don't effect too much locals, we also promote a kind of tourism which promotes hospitality, and which ensures that the object of visits is not destroyed by tourism consumption.

replies(1): >>mafrib+nq3
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54. aninhu+FU2[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-03 10:28:54
>>stale2+Kr2
No, I was mostly arguing generally, that a monopoly can exist without it being the government's fault. But I think it's fairly clear that the housing market is indeed strongly influenced by regulation.
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55. mafrib+nq3[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-03 15:07:21
>>pyrale+Az2
International captial cities like Berlin are major destinations for travellers of all stripe, and will be for the forseeable future.

Indeed, the boundary between tourists and residents is porous. Capital cities attract a transient population from week end visitors to interns or workers who stay a few weeks, to summer visitors who stay a season, to students who stay for a few years, to proper residents who stay a decade or more. All of them are a source of ideas as well as a source of income for Berlin's industry. "Das ist auch gut so." Hence Berlin needs to cater for all. That includes providing substantial, centrally located living space (whether hotels or apartments) for short-term visitors.

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56. orasis+Qhf[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-05-10 13:14:11
>>nindal+Oh
Sorry. The Yakuza traditionally strong armed real estate hold outs and NIMBYs at the behest of the construction industry. Without the Yakuza, Tokyo wouldn't be what it is today.
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