zlacker

[parent] [thread] 31 comments
1. tptace+(OP)[view] [source] 2015-05-29 20:37:45
This is simply not true. Not only was the evidence introduced at trial, but it was tied to a specific charge, and considered at length by the court.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1391...

replies(4): >>Boards+D >>ad_hom+V >>Boards+11 >>Madrug+M9
2. Boards+D[view] [source] 2015-05-29 20:42:34
>>tptace+(OP)
Ok, I can't reply to the one answe saying that this isn't true but accoring to the wired articel "Ulbricht, who the prosecutors have sought to prove is that Dread Pirate Roberts, hasn’t been charged with murder-for-hire in his Southern District of New York case, though he faces charges that include conspiracies to sell narcotics, launder money and more. (He does, however, face murder-for-hire charges in a separate case in Baltimore.) " This is the NY case
3. ad_hom+V[view] [source] 2015-05-29 20:44:59
>>tptace+(OP)
You're linking to a pre-trial motion, which means nothing about what actually happened during the trial.
replies(1): >>tptace+s1
4. Boards+11[view] [source] 2015-05-29 20:45:17
>>tptace+(OP)
So which of the charges is it (from your link): " charging Ulbricht with seven crimes: Narcotics Trafficking (Count One), Distribution of Narcotics by Means of the Internet (Count Two), Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy (Count Three), Continuing Criminal Enterprise (Count Four), Conspiracy to Commit and Aid and Abet Computer Hacking (Count Five), Conspiracy to Traffic in Fraudulent Identification Documents (Count Six), and Money Laundering Conspiracy (Count Seven). (ECF No. 52.) "
replies(2): >>dragon+G1 >>Boards+05
◧◩
5. tptace+s1[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 20:48:21
>>ad_hom+V
It's right there in the indictment. Count 1: Trafficking Conspiracy, Overt Acts, (b).
replies(1): >>gwern+we
◧◩
6. dragon+G1[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 20:49:54
>>Boards+11
The murder for hire scheme was the second overt act charged in Count One (an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy is an element of conspiracy.) [0]

[0] see p. 5 of the indictment: http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy/...

replies(1): >>Boards+u2
◧◩◪
7. Boards+u2[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 20:55:19
>>dragon+G1
So a murder is hidden under a less serious offence? Just search for the phrase murder in the document you linked. How many hits? Zero
replies(3): >>dragon+b3 >>zorpne+94 >>wutbro+x4
◧◩◪◨
8. dragon+b3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:00:40
>>Boards+u2
> So a murder is hidden under a less serious offence?

No. Soliciting a killing for pay ("murder for hire" in informal terms) as an act to advance a conspiracy is included (hardly "hidden") as one of the alleged overt acts in furtherance of the conspiracy, at least one of which must have been found by a juror to have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to vote to convict on the conspiracy charge.

replies(1): >>Boards+J3
◧◩◪◨⬒
9. Boards+J3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:05:31
>>dragon+b3
Oh I see. unfortunately there is no "killing for pay" in the document you linked either. Just stop making shit up.
replies(2): >>dragon+z4 >>bkeroa+M4
◧◩◪◨
10. zorpne+94[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:09:15
>>Boards+u2
Page 5, line 4. I do look forward to you blaming a broken search tool for your failure to bother reading the document before arguing about it, though.
replies(1): >>Boards+I4
◧◩◪◨
11. wutbro+x4[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:12:23
>>Boards+u2
Dude, it's right at the very beginning of the exact page that he linked you. The fact that it says "murder-for-hire" with hyphens doesn't somehow make it not say "murder".

EDIT: Whoops I see that zorpner said basically the exact same thing just a couple minutes before me.

replies(1): >>Boards+45
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
12. dragon+z4[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:12:49
>>Boards+J3
> unfortunately there is no "killing for pay" in the document you linked either.

Actually the document uses the phrase "murder-for-hire".

Your word search probably failed because its an image scan and has no searchable text.

You actually need to read it. Which should be helped by the fact that where I linked it, I told you where in the document the murder-for-hire scheme was addressed.

replies(1): >>Boards+g5
◧◩◪◨⬒
13. Boards+I4[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:13:43
>>zorpne+94
Yes, you're right. If you'll find pleasure in it, chrome did not find the word though. Thanks.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
14. bkeroa+M4[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:14:13
>>Boards+J3
It's right there on page 3 ("II. Background A. The Murder-For-Hire Evidence") and continues for quite some length. I'm not a lawyer and haven't been following the case, but if he was convicted of what the government alleges in this section it pretty much eliminates the "non-violent" argument.
replies(1): >>Boards+C7
◧◩
15. Boards+05[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:16:21
>>Boards+11
From ArsTechinca: "Prosecutors' allegations that Ulbricht tried to arrange several murders-for-hire also came up at trial, but he was not charged for them in this case. Instead, one of those six accusations is pending in Maryland."
◧◩◪◨⬒
16. Boards+45[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:17:12
>>wutbro+x4
Yes, but was he sentenced for it?
replies(1): >>dragon+i5
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
17. Boards+g5[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:19:13
>>dragon+z4
Ok thanks. Where is the text where he is actually sentenced for it?
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
18. dragon+i5[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:19:34
>>Boards+45
> Yes, but was he sentenced for it?

Yes, it was a factor in his sentencing (the whole debate about whether or not it was charged was because it was included as a factor in the proposed calculation for sentencing.)

replies(1): >>Boards+v5
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
19. Boards+v5[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:22:20
>>dragon+i5
Ok, he wasn't sentenced for murder but it was "factored in" in another sentence. Wow.. I'm not sure there is a more serious crime than murder though. Wouldn't it be that the other crime was factored in under murder?
replies(1): >>dragon+M5
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
20. dragon+M5[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:25:07
>>Boards+v5
> Ok, he wasn't sentenced for murder but it was "factored in" in another sentence

Its not "murder", its "soliciting murder in the furtherance of a conspiracy". Which is not a separate crime, but manner in which the crime of conspiracy is achieved.

(Soliciting murder itself can be charged as a crime, and Ulbricht is charged with that, too, though those charges were not tried with these charges.)

replies(1): >>Boards+E6
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
21. Boards+E6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:33:20
>>dragon+M5
Ok, so he wasn't sentenced to murder, thanks. Neither to "solicinting murder in the furtherance of conspirancy either" actually. Or, which charge was it exactly if you look here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627263 ... Seems as if there was no such charge.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
22. Boards+C7[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:44:25
>>bkeroa+M4
No no no. You (or the one you replied to) said he was sentenced for murder. And I think we agree now that he wasn't, right?
replies(2): >>tptace+ye >>uberno+tB
23. Madrug+M9[view] [source] 2015-05-29 22:11:13
>>tptace+(OP)
Actually it is true. No charge for murder. ArsTechnicha and wired agree.
replies(1): >>tptace+Ed
◧◩
24. tptace+Ed[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 23:00:45
>>Madrug+M9
Practically every filing from the case is trivially available with a single Google search, so I'm not really at all interested in how Ars or Wired chose to summarize it.
◧◩◪
25. gwern+we[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 23:12:24
>>tptace+s1
An indictment is also pre-trial. It is, in fact, about as pre-trial as documents get.
replies(1): >>tptace+Ve
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
26. tptace+ye[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 23:12:59
>>Boards+C7
Here is exactly what you said, kicking off this long and unproductive subthread:

There was no such thing introduced for the trial. It was in the original press release, then it was withdrawn. Maybe it was because of Mark Force's transgressions, or maybe it was just for effect. Regardless, he never got the chance to defend himself against those particular allegations.

By "no such thing", you were referring to the words <<the "murder for hire" evidence>> in the preceding comment.

Let's pick it apart:

1. There was no such thing introduced for the trial. Not only was it introduced for the trial, it was an explicit part of what Ulbricht was indicted for.

2. It was in the original press release, then it was withdrawn. It was never withdrawn; he was indicted based on (among other things) the explicitly asserted "overt act" of commissioning a murder. The murder-for-hire scheme wasn't innuendo, but a rebuttable fact introduced not just as evidence but as one of the legs of the case.

3. Maybe it was because of Mark Force's transgressions, or maybe it was just for effect. It may have been either of those things, but if so, it was also actually one of the predicates of the conspiracy charge he was convicted of.

4. Regardless, he never got the chance to defend himself against those particular allegations. Yes, he did; his legal team mounted multiple arguments against the allegation, and did not prevail at trial. Ulbricht's team had not only the opportunity to defend him against the allegation, but the obligation to. Conclusively refuting that allegation would have significantly harmed the prosecution's case, knocking out one of the predicates for the conspiracy charge.

From what I can tell, you made a fairly complicated series of assertions, none of which turned out to be true.

◧◩◪◨
27. tptace+Ve[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 23:18:42
>>gwern+we
The indictment is the whole premise of the trial.

Please remember: the argument isn't "did the government conclusively prove that Ulbricht attempted to commission a murder".

It is: "There was no such thing [here: <<evidence of a murder for hire scheme>>] introduced for the trial" (exact words taken from the comment rooting this subthread and the parent comment that provoked it).

That's not only false, it's pretty much the opposite of what happened: not only was evidence of the murder-for-hire scheme formally introduced at trial, but it was ventured at trial, in a manner that put a part of the prosecution's case on the line for it. Not only did Ulbricht's team have the opportunity to rebut it, but they were obligated to do so in the course of competently representing him.

Edited a bit for clarity.

replies(1): >>gwern+L11
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
28. uberno+tB[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-30 08:52:13
>>Boards+C7
Hey, this may be weird, but I've got this football field where the goalposts were installed in the wrong place, and I need them moved. After checking out your comment history I think you'd be a good fit for the job; let me know if you'd be interested.
◧◩◪◨⬒
29. gwern+L11[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-30 18:17:40
>>tptace+Ve
> The indictment is the whole premise of the trial.

No, the indictment is simply the initial document filed years ago which started the case and the specific charges can be, and were (right up to before Ulbricht's sentencing, even, where I believe some charges were combined or something) amended and strategies changed. You seem to think that indictments are immutable and all you have to do is quote a line from it, but you are not a lawyer.

> That's not only false, it's pretty much the opposite of what happened: not only was evidence of the murder-for-hire scheme formally introduced at trial, but it was ventured at trial, in a manner that put a part of the prosecution's case on the line for it.

The prosecution did not introduce the murder for hire and during the trial, as I already quoted, explicitly disclaimed that it was trying to do so and that they were only talking about other things like control of Bitcoins.

replies(1): >>tptace+Fa1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
30. tptace+Fa1[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-30 20:49:10
>>gwern+L11
The indictment to which we are referring was filed on February 4, 2014. It does not appear to have been superseded, and is the indictment the prosecution makes direct references to.

Is there a newer indictment you can point us to? One in which the murder-for-hire scheme is not ventured as part of the case?

replies(1): >>gwern+um1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
31. gwern+um1[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-31 00:16:56
>>tptace+Fa1
I don't know what you want besides the explicit quotes from prosecution during the trial itself clarifying what they were and were not claiming. Whatever your interpretation is, it seems to be either wrong or irrelevant. Which interpretation should be trusted more, a crypto guy on HN trying to interpret indictments or the prosecutors during the trial?
replies(1): >>tptace+vs1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
32. tptace+vs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-31 02:37:26
>>gwern+um1
You, just one comment prior, suggested that the indictment had been changed in a manner relevant to this thread. I cited the most recent indictment --- and took the time to try to verify that it was the most recent indictment. Now the indictment doesn't matter?

No. It very much mattered. The indictment formally documents the charges Ulbricht faced. His lawyer, a relatively well-known defense attorney, was fully aware of his obligation to rebut the allegations in the indictment. Ulbricht is, of course, innocent of charges until proven guilty. The prosecution produced what appears to be very compelling evidence. The defense produced something much less compelling.

A variety of things that aren't findings of fact at criminal trials can, unfortunately, be material to the sentencing phase of a trial. The murder-for-hire scheme isn't one of those things: it was an explicit component of a criminal charge that Ulbricht was convicted of, supported by evidence, provided to the Ulbricht defense during the earliest phases of the trial.

[go to top]