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1. buckbo+(OP)[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:18:42
> "They know that employers want loyalty," Hoffman says. "They know they want to hear, 'Oh, I plan on working here for the rest of my career.'

When asked about where I wanted to be in my career by my boss (boss' boss actually), I was honest about having my resume out there and looking for other opportunities outside my current company. Now, I've heard from other sources a promotion that was possible in my future has been basically pulled.

Honesty is not a good policy. Keep lying.

Everyone says they want the truth, but if you are told you're not doing meaningful work, the justification for your job is vanity metrics, and the guy with less experience than you who does terrible work makes more money than you, how happy would you be?

If you told management, you're using the position and any promotion as a jumping off area for a newer better job at a different company, how happy would management be?

replies(8): >>mentat+r >>__abc+u >>gnoway+y >>cedsav+L >>famous+X >>3am+61 >>dragon+E3 >>russel+d7
2. mentat+r[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:23:43
>>buckbo+(OP)
Promotions for loyalty are poisonous to the company. Merit / track record is the only way to go.
replies(4): >>__abc+z >>sliver+x5 >>sheepm+Na >>gaius+rp
3. __abc+u[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:24:30
>>buckbo+(OP)
> If you told management, you're using the position and any promotion as a jumping off area for a newer better job at a different company, how happy would management be?

Not happy, and why would they? Flip it around, how happy would you be if you knew they were out there shopping around for your replacement? Only keeping you so long as they didn't find someone better?

replies(1): >>Osiris+Q2
4. gnoway+y[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:25:35
>>buckbo+(OP)
It comes down to how you present it. If you tell a high level manager that you're shopping around for a better gig, you're basically waving a big flag that says "don't invest in me." You can have a conversation about your career direction without including the part where you've sent your resume out everywhere already.
replies(1): >>jotux+r2
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5. __abc+z[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 21:25:55
>>mentat+r
THIS!

Tenure isn't worth zero, but it's not a "guarantee for greater responsibility and compensation".

6. cedsav+L[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:28:42
>>buckbo+(OP)
You should be open about your desires and aspirations and they can figure out how to make it work in the company (or not)... but if you say you're already looking elsewhere, you can't really blame them for thinking that whatever chance they had to keep you around, is now lost.
7. famous+X[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:33:56
>>buckbo+(OP)
The flip-side to that argument is that being honest about your intentions keeps you honest about your ability to deliver value. If I say I'm thinking about leaving and the company doesn't struggle to sort out how to make things work, then either we've agreed there isn't a future for me there or I just haven't been delivering enough value.

Pleasant loyalty is a good way to stay employed when you're doing a mediocre job.

So I like being ruthlessly honest about this stuff. I'm much much happier this way than I have been in the past where my relationship with my employer involved more charades around future plans.

8. 3am+61[view] [source] 2015-05-22 21:36:30
>>buckbo+(OP)
That is apples and oranges. He's talking about a tacit understanding, and not necessarily in the context of upward movement. You're talking about explicitly telling management that you are actively looking. They'd have to be idiots to promote you under those circumstances.
replies(1): >>jotux+52
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9. jotux+52[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 21:58:15
>>3am+61
>They'd have to be idiots to promote you under those circumstances.

Why would they have to be idiots? Doesn't this just create a crummy atmosphere where promotions only go to people unwilling or unable to leave the organization?

replies(3): >>wheati+v2 >>3am+e3 >>dragon+Q3
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10. jotux+r2[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:01:53
>>gnoway+y
>you're basically waving a big flag that says "don't invest in me."

If you're shopping around this can mean your employer has already refused to invest in you, no?

replies(2): >>gnoway+W2 >>Yakimo+O3
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11. wheati+v2[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:02:28
>>jotux+52
No they go to the people who threaten to leave as a means of retaining them. That's an even worse environment to work in.
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12. Osiris+Q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:06:26
>>__abc+u
If they are doing that, that means that I'm not doing my job well enough that they feel it's worth their time to find a replacement. If you tell your employer you're thinking about leaving, it should tell them the same thing, they are doing something wrong that they need to correct.
replies(1): >>Domeni+24
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13. gnoway+W2[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:07:42
>>jotux+r2
The point is not "don't shop around," the point is "don't broadcast to management that you're shopping around."
replies(1): >>jotux+y3
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14. 3am+e3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:12:47
>>jotux+52
Just because you are willing/able to leave a company doesn't mean you advertise it. Hence "explicit" vs "tacit" in my comment. What a person says about being loyal is irrelevant, you can't assume anyone will stay long term (kind of the point). But if they go out of their way to say they're looking, then they don't want to be there and you shouldn't waste the time & resources training them up.
replies(1): >>toyg+V3
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15. jotux+y3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:16:30
>>gnoway+W2
I understand this is the current and prevalent mindset I just think it's wrong. If you are told or find out someone is looking for another job, and that person is a good and important resource to your organization, why not take every reasonable action to try to retain them? Instead people have his knee-jerk response of, "Oh you're thinking about leaving? Well NOW I'm never going to consider promoting you because you aren't loyal."
16. dragon+E3[view] [source] 2015-05-22 22:17:15
>>buckbo+(OP)
> When asked about where I wanted to be in my career by my boss (boss' boss actually), I was honest about having my resume out there and looking for other opportunities outside my current company.

I think that's a bad idea for reasons different than the ones you seem to have intuited. If you are asked where you want to be in your career by your employer, they are asking what you want to be doing (with a subtext that they are trying to find out whether and how they can be the employer for which you are doing it.)

If the focus of your answer to that question is that you are shopping around for opportunities outside of the company, you are basically answering that what you want is, above all else, to be somewhere else.

I don't think the lesson that should be learned from this is "keep lying", I think the lesson is "be honest, but -- in business dealings -- focus on the parts of the truth that the person you are dealing with can, at least potentially, act on in a mutually beneficial way". In this case -- if you are asked where you want to be in your career, you tell your boss what you'd like to be doing.

replies(1): >>buckbo+l6
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17. Yakimo+O3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:20:03
>>jotux+r2
>employer has already refused to invest in you, no?

Obviously you are omitting the myriad of cases that an employer would like to invest in you but can't (yet) from your statement. Plenty of things like a lack of funding, individual ability, market timing, etc. prevents them from investing in you.

If I was waiting for the cash flow to move someone from A to B, and was working diligently to do so, to then have them state they are looking elsewhere for the B position, I would clearly re-evaluate my candidate selection as they may be gone by the time I get the opportunity to promote.

replies(1): >>itsybi+ja
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18. dragon+Q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:20:15
>>jotux+52
> Why would they have to be idiots?

Because when the employee was asked what they wanted to be doing in their career, their answer amounted to "be working somewhere else".

> Doesn't this just create a crummy atmosphere where promotions only go to people unwilling or unable to leave the organization?

There's a difference between "people who are willing to leave the company if it cannot provide them what they want" and "people whose desires appear to center around leaving the company".

replies(1): >>jotux+N4
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19. toyg+V3[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:21:26
>>3am+e3
> doesn't mean you advertise it.

OP: "When asked about where I wanted to be in my career [...] I was honest about having my resume out there"

He didn't "advertise" it -- he just gave a honest answer when questioned. If this is "advertising" for you, then your "default" behaviour would be "be economical with the truth", i.e. white lies, i.e. being fundamentally dishonest... which means OP is right.

replies(1): >>dragon+p4
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20. Domeni+24[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:23:56
>>Osiris+Q2
At best, telling your employer you're thinking about leaving is childish, like folks in relationships who "break up" as a means of communicating their displeasure instead of talking about the actual issues. At worst it means the relationship is actually bad and one or both of you can't communicate well, so it's over.

The only time it's acceptable IMO is when you're thinking about leaving for an actual, offered role that's much different, eg, "I'm thinking of leaving to be CTO of Startup X, what do you think?"; in any event it's probably OK if the reasons are beyond the company's control (you're moving, etc).

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21. dragon+p4[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:33:36
>>toyg+V3
> He didn't "advertise" it -- he just gave a honest answer when questioned.

"I am actively looking for jobs at other firms" is not an answer to the question of "where do you want to be in your career", except insofar as it can be read to imply an answer of "not here".

So, it was honest, but not really (except indirectly) an answer to the question asked, and quite likely, in any case, not the most productive and relevant honest answer.

If the reason other opportunities were being sought is that those opportunities offered features X, Y, and Z that the employee's current position didn't, an honest but more direct and relevant answer would be "I'd like to be doing more of things like X, Y, and Z". That would directly answer the question, and provide something positively actionable by the employer, and be no less honest than "I've got my resume out and am actively looking at outside opportunities".

There's two possibilities (based on the scenario as described): either the employee was fed up with the company and really wanted out, and then the answer given was not only honest but reasonably relevant (if somewhat, perhaps diplomatically, indirect), or the employee had particular things they wanted in their career that they weren't currently getting, and failed to give the most relevant perfectly honest answer to the question asked, and instead gave an incomplete, tangentially relevant non-answer which implied an unfortunate and inaccurate answer to the question actually asked.

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22. jotux+N4[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:41:28
>>dragon+Q3
>their answer amounted to "be working somewhere else".

It does not amount to that. In many, many, cases people start looking for jobs wishing they could stay at their current job.

replies(1): >>dragon+b5
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23. dragon+b5[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:47:49
>>jotux+N4
> It does not amount to that.

Assuming no relevant facts were omitted from the description of events, it does, in the context of the question it was offered in response to.

> In many, many, cases people start looking for jobs wishing they could stay at their current job.

Sure, they do. But the answer to the question "Where do you want to be in your career?" in those cases would focus on the things that they wanted to enable themselves to stay in and love the job with their current employer, not the fact that they are looking for outside opportunities (the latter might be mentioned in the context of specific desires and the fact that certain outside opportunities seemed to be the only way to realize them, but even then the looking for outside opportunities would be secondary to the main answer about desired job features, not the main answer to the question.)

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24. sliver+x5[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 22:55:30
>>mentat+r
Your parent did not describe promotions-as-reward-for-loyalty.

Merit/track-record is a key metric, but not the only requirement. Interpersonal skills, future plans (loyalty, career track, etc), attitude, potential...

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25. buckbo+l6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-22 23:16:13
>>dragon+E3
That wasn't the whole of the back and forth.

We discussed opportunities within the company, what's a good fit for me, starting my own business and eventually that I'd been looking at what else is out there. I actually told him he should be looking too.

He did offer me more money, but I have to wait until our next bonus round to get it. So he used that against me too. It was well played.

26. russel+d7[view] [source] 2015-05-22 23:30:04
>>buckbo+(OP)
As others have said, it's basically substituting a big lie for a little lie. You basically told your boss that you're looking to leave in the immediate future. What Reid is talking about is more of a "some time in the possible future I'm looking to expand beyond what I'm currently doing here". When it's framed that way, the current company can keep that in mind and include you if something comes their way that matches what you wanted to move on to next.

Basically, when in doubt, be vague.

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27. itsybi+ja[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 00:41:58
>>Yakimo+O3
Or you could have an honest discussion with them and tell them you're working diligently towards putting them in the B position, and try to figure out whether there's an overlap between the timeframe you can get them there and the timeframe they would be willing to wait for. Just because someone has floated their resume out there doesn't necessarily mean they're looking to leave ASAP.
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28. sheepm+Na[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 00:59:55
>>mentat+r
To an extent. As soon as you consider externals for a role though the merit/track record approach falls apart because of the information disparity.

Its usually better to hire the internal person who you know can do a good job, than to hire an external who looks twice as impressive on paper. Yet we often do the opposite.

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29. gaius+rp[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-23 10:14:14
>>mentat+r
This is why unions and their seniority based system never caught on in tech.
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