zlacker

[parent] [thread] 20 comments
1. r00fus+(OP)[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:18:24
> 1. Disarm everyone, and 2. Allow everyone to carry weapons.

Nice strawmen. There are obviously options in the middle, namely, increasing traceability of weapons and ammo and shutting down channels that where weapons are allowed to change hands anonymously.

The proliferation of weapons is one thing, but the fact that these tragedies occur and we don't have a way to follow the chain back to the disreputable dealer who sold these armaments - and shut them down - is just non-sensical.

The 2nd amendment fundamentalists who don't even want question how these weapons can get in the wrong hands - often use that same strawman you pose above - which is rediculous - many folks support the 2nd amendment yet find the need for further action to prevent these events from happening.

replies(6): >>dmm+g >>dsl+E >>jlgrec+Y >>marknu+t1 >>baddox+u1 >>jcroma+f4
2. dmm+g[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:20:54
>>r00fus+(OP)
> increasing traceability of weapons and ammo

The guns used in shootings are usually legally bought. There are no disreputable dealers here.

3. dsl+E[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:24:12
>>r00fus+(OP)
Disreputable dealer? I absolutely agree, any car used in a drunk driving accident should be traced back to the dealer responsible, and they should be punished.

If you can determine in advance who the "wrong hands" are, I'm sure the TSA would love to speak to you and dump buckets of money over your head.

replies(1): >>gnu8+72
4. jlgrec+Y[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:27:08
>>r00fus+(OP)
I am personally a fan of another a solution along another axis entirely: a complete overhaul of our medical system, notably in this case the way we detect and handle the mentally ill. (A part of that could be mental evaluations for those who want to buy guns.)
replies(1): >>the_ec+5o
5. marknu+t1[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:31:17
>>r00fus+(OP)
The guy used basic handguns in this shooting. The problem is his mental health, not his access to guns. If he were motivated enough, and guns weren't available, he could use any manner of other means to kill a bunch of people - bombs, molotov cocktails, home-made flame throwers, samurai sword, vehicles, etc.
replies(1): >>codege+p4
6. baddox+u1[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:31:37
>>r00fus+(OP)
I think you mean false dichotomy, not straw man.
replies(1): >>r00fus+O5
◧◩
7. gnu8+72[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 19:37:25
>>dsl+E
Or cars used in any accidents. Thousands of people die in car collisions every year, accidental and intentional, whether they were drunk or sober, reckless or diligent, or just an innocent pedestrian or cyclist who happened to have bad luck that day.

A few days ago someone posted a web site called http://www.banthecar.com where they laid out detailed arguments for banning all cars, because of all the problems they cause, including accidental deaths. Obviously banning cars is not reasonable or realistic.

We have a process for who is and is not allowed to drive a car, and we are fairly comfortable with it, even though it still fails to prevent thousands of deaths. The process of firearm ownership could use some adjustments, but ultimately we cannot prevent all deaths. The best we can do is prevent those who are obviously unsuitable(1) from owning firearms, and ensuring we have a system to remove the rights of those who abuse them.

(1) this is very dangerous due to the history of gun control being used to enable racism and genocide. The criteria must be objective, not subjective.

replies(1): >>dbaupp+D5
8. jcroma+f4[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:59:40
>>r00fus+(OP)
Most mass shootings are done with legally-obtained firearms.
replies(1): >>codege+H4
◧◩
9. codege+p4[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:00:48
>>marknu+t1
"The problem is his mental health, not his access to guns"

The problem is that he had access to guns when he was mentally ill. Thats the problem. You cannot isolate the two.

replies(2): >>marknu+Z7 >>sallyj+WM
◧◩
10. codege+H4[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:03:17
>>jcroma+f4
Probably. But still the point is to make it harder to obtain guns legally since most shooters buy guns legally. Illegally anyway you cannot do much.
◧◩◪
11. dbaupp+D5[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:13:56
>>gnu8+72
> history of gun control being used to enable racism and genocide

Reference? (Genuine question.)

replies(2): >>gnu8+j7 >>lostlo+Ps
◧◩
12. r00fus+O5[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:16:58
>>baddox+u1
No, they're strawmen. Extreme positions that a very small percentage of people support - so you can knock them down and look like a reasonable figure as long as you don't support the extreme.

Look at example 2.5 here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#Structure

By reducing the argument to one extreme vs. another extreme, these are strawmen arguments... very few support either extreme, so the commenter can then knock down the arguments and look reasonable saying pretty much anything.

replies(1): >>baddox+Vb
◧◩◪◨
13. gnu8+j7[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:32:50
>>dbaupp+D5
Here are a few.

Racism:

http://constitution.org/cmt/cramer/racist_roots.htm

http://www.guncite.com/journals/gun_control_wtr8512.html

Genocide:

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/Foreign/gun-bans-and-genocide.ht...

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm

replies(1): >>dbaupp+te
◧◩◪
14. marknu+Z7[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:39:36
>>codege+p4
What's easier to solve: remove all access to any weapon, or treating mental illness?
replies(2): >>codege+d8 >>nollid+2f
◧◩◪◨
15. codege+d8[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:42:05
>>marknu+Z7
The solution is somewhere in the middle. It is never one or the other. Can you remove access to all weapons ? No. Can you treat all mentally ill ppl ? No. Can you make it harder for ppl to buy weapons especially if they could be mentally ill ? Yes, certainly. Will it always work ? No.
◧◩◪
16. baddox+Vb[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 21:22:24
>>r00fus+O5
It's not a straw man. Go back and read JoeCortopassi's comment [0]. He didn't propose the argument then knock it down. He genuinely presented the argument as his own. He says neither will work unless implemented completely, then he recognizes that there are problems with either and that some crazy people will always be able to commit heinous crimes.

Your argument is that the two absolutes are not the only options, which is pointing out a false dichotomy. Of course, even that's not an appropriate response, since JoeCortopassi had already pointed out the potential problems (like excessive loss of personal liberty) with absolutes.

[0] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4922651

◧◩◪◨⬒
17. dbaupp+te[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 21:59:46
>>gnu8+j7
Ah, interesting, it does seem that gun control can be a tool for racism and genocide.

However, I'm only willing to take those as anecdotal evidence for promoting less gun control: they are all written by people and groups who are heavily invested against gun control, i.e. a very high risk of motivated thinking, research and writing.

(Sure, one might point at all the references and evidence they provide, but what are they not saying? What about a discussion of the countries around the world with gun control that has (as far as I can see) no racist or genocidal purpose (e.g. most of modern Europe, Australia, New Zealand)?)

◧◩◪◨
18. nollid+2f[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 22:10:04
>>marknu+Z7
Or some of both? Because neither is a perfect solution?
◧◩
19. the_ec+5o[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 01:14:39
>>jlgrec+Y
This seems like the right approach, but part of the overhaul needs to be a massive increase in research. We don't have a good way to treat the mentally ill, in most cases.
◧◩◪◨
20. lostlo+Ps[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 03:14:56
>>dbaupp+D5
That's a ludicrous argument. There is a fairly good correlation with gun control and welfare states - I wonder if gun control is a communist plot.
◧◩◪
21. sallyj+WM[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 17:34:57
>>codege+p4
I believe the handguns were his mother's. Making guns harder to obtain for mentally ill people will not stop them from obtaining them illegally.
[go to top]