zlacker

[parent] [thread] 101 comments
1. hirsin+(OP)[view] [source] 2026-02-04 01:43:28
Simply put no, 50MW is not the typical hyperscaler cloud size. It's not even the typical single datacenter size.

A single AI rack consumes 60kW, and there is apparently a single DC that alone consumes 650MW.

When Microsoft puts in a DC, the machines are done in units of a "stamp", ie a couple racks together. These aren't scaled by dollar or sqft, but by the MW.

And on top of that... That's a bunch of satellites not even trying to crunch data at top speed. No where near the right order of magnitude.

replies(4): >>tensor+li >>lloeki+rN >>pera+AO >>mike_h+UO
2. tensor+li[view] [source] 2026-02-04 04:22:33
>>hirsin+(OP)
How much of that power is radiated as the radio waves it sends?
replies(4): >>adgjls+2p >>hirsin+ts >>mlyle+0C >>nosian+k51
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3. adgjls+2p[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 05:32:10
>>tensor+li
the majority is likely in radio waves and the inter satellite laser communication
replies(1): >>hdgvhi+yB
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4. hirsin+ts[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 06:07:48
>>tensor+li
Good point - the comms satellites are not even "keeping" some of the energy, while a DC would. I _am_ now curious about the connection between bandwidth and wattage, but I'm willing to bet that less than 1% of the total energy dissipation on one of these DC satellites would be in the form of satellite-to-earth broadcast (keeping in mind that s2s broadcast would presumably be something of a wash).
replies(1): >>adrian+zx1
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5. hdgvhi+yB[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 07:29:54
>>adgjls+2p
Inter sat comms cancels out - every kw sent by one sat is received by another.
replies(1): >>mlyle+3C
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6. mlyle+0C[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 07:33:50
>>tensor+li
I doubt half the power is to the transmitter, and radio efficiency is poor -- 20% might be a good starting point.
replies(2): >>syncte+QE >>Punchy+2L
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7. mlyle+3C[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 07:34:17
>>hdgvhi+yB
It doesn't, because the beams are not so tight that they all fall on the target satellite, and not all of that is absorbed :P
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8. syncte+QE[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 07:57:16
>>mlyle+0C
Is the SpaceX thin-foil cooling based on graphene real? Can experts check this out?

"SmartIR’s graphene-based radiator launches on SpaceX Falcon 9" [1]. This could be the magic behind this bet on heat radiation through exotic material. Lot of blog posts say impossible, expensive, stock pump, etc. Could this be the underlying technology breakthrough? Along with avoiding complex self-assembly in space through decentralization (1 million AI constellation, laser-grid comms).

[1] https://www.graphene-info.com/smartir-s-graphene-based-radia...

replies(1): >>ajnin+DY
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9. Punchy+2L[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 08:44:58
>>mlyle+0C
Entirely depends on band, at 10GHz more like 40%, at lower frequencies more, for example FM band can even go to 70%
10. lloeki+rN[view] [source] 2026-02-04 09:02:18
>>hirsin+(OP)
For another reference, the Nvidia-OpenAI deal is reportedly 10GW worth of DC.
11. pera+AO[view] [source] 2026-02-04 09:11:35
>>hirsin+(OP)
New GPU dense racks are going up to 300kW, but I believe the normal at moment for hyperscalers is somewhere around ~150kW, can someone confirm?

The energy demand of these DCs is monstrous, I seriously can't imagine something similar being deployed in orbit...

replies(2): >>syncte+eb1 >>stonog+E33
12. mike_h+UO[view] [source] 2026-02-04 09:13:46
>>hirsin+(OP)
But the focus on building giant monolithic datacenters comes from the practicalities of ground based construction. There are huge overheads involved with obtaining permits, grid connections, leveling land, pouring concrete foundations, building roads and increasingly often now, building a power plant on site. So it makes sense to amortize these overheads by building massive facilities, which is why they get so big.

That doesn't mean you need a gigawatt of power before achieving anything useful. For training, maybe, but not for inference which scales horizontally.

With satellites you need an orbital slot and launch time, and I honestly don't know how hard it is to get those, but space is pretty big and the only reasons for denying them would be safety. Once those are obtained done you can make satellite inferencing cubes in a factory and just keep launching them on a cadence.

I also strongly suspect, given some background reading, that radiator tech is very far from optimized. Most stuff we put into space so far just doesn't have big cooling needs, so there wasn't a market for advanced space radiator tech. If now there is, there's probably a lot of low hanging fruit (droplet radiators maybe).

replies(4): >>cogman+iV >>leoedi+m21 >>thephy+Xa1 >>skywho+Sp1
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13. cogman+iV[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 10:03:46
>>mike_h+UO
> I also strongly suspect, given some background reading, that radiator tech is very far from optimized. Most stuff we put into space so far just doesn't have big cooling needs, so there wasn't a market for advanced space radiator tech. If now there is, there's probably a lot of low hanging fruit (droplet radiators maybe).

You'd be wrong. There's a huge incentive to optimized radiator tech because of things like the international space station and MIR. It's a huge part of the deployment due to life having pretty narrow thermal bands. The added cost to deploy that tech also incentivizes hyper optimization.

Making bigger structures doesn't make that problem easier.

Fun fact, heat pipes were invented by NASA in the 60s to help address this very problem.

replies(2): >>mike_h+rX >>zero_b+CX
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14. mike_h+rX[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 10:20:10
>>cogman+iV
The ISS is a government project that's heading towards EOL, it has no incentive to heavily optimize anything because the people who built it don't get rich by doing so. SpaceX is what optimization looks like, not the ISS.
replies(2): >>jeltz+V71 >>cogman+4t1
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15. zero_b+CX[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 10:21:26
>>cogman+iV
ISS and MIR combined are not a "large market". How many radiators they require? Probably a single space dc will demand a whole orders of magnitude more cooling
replies(1): >>cogman+Fq1
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16. ajnin+DY[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 10:30:32
>>syncte+QE
This coating looks like it can selectively make parts of the satellite radiators or insulators, as to regulate temperature. But I don't think it can change the fundamental physics of radiating unwanted heat and that you can't do better than black body radiation.
replies(1): >>syncte+B71
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17. leoedi+m21[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 10:58:37
>>mike_h+UO
But why would you?

Space has some huge downsides:

* Everything is being irradiated all the time. Things need to be radiation hardened or shielded.

* Putting even 1kg into space takes vast amounts of energy. A Falcon 9 burns 260 MJ of fuel per kg into LEO. I imagine the embodied energy in the disposable rocket and liquid oxygen make the total number 2-3x that at least.

* Cooling is a nightmare. The side of the satellite in the sun is very hot, while the side facing space is incredibly cold. No fans or heat sinks - all the heat has to be conducted from the electronics and radiated into space.

* Orbit keeping requires continuous effort. You need some sort of hypergolic rocket, which has the nasty effect of coating all your stuff in horrible corrosive chemicals

* You can't fix anything. Even a tiny failure means writing off the entire system.

* Everything has to be able to operate in a vacuum. No electrolytic capacitors for you!

So I guess the question is - why bother? The only benefit I can think of is very short "days" and "nights" - so you don't need as much solar or as big a battery to power the thing. But that benefit is surely outweighed by the fact you have to blast it all into space? Why not just overbuild the solar and batteries on earth?

replies(6): >>Findet+w51 >>wombat+B91 >>fpolin+2r1 >>inglor+cs1 >>elihu+Xs1 >>andyjo+PR1
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18. nosian+k51[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:21:06
>>tensor+li
The radio receiver and transmitter are additional hardware and energy consumption. They add to the heat, not subtract from it.
replies(1): >>jeltz+H81
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19. Findet+w51[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:22:10
>>leoedi+m21
Maybe they should try to build it in the moon. Difficult, but perhaps not as difficult?
replies(6): >>thephy+y81 >>ahoka+a91 >>kakaci+C91 >>nkrisc+Kd1 >>sdento+nf1 >>Allege+4r1
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20. syncte+B71[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:38:00
>>ajnin+DY
Indeed, graphene seems capable of .99 of black body radiation limit.

Quote: "emissivity higher than 0.99 over a wide range of wavelengths". Article title "Perfect blackbody radiation from a graphene nanostructure" [1]. So several rolls of 10 x 50 meters graphene-coated aluminium foil could have significant cooling capability. No science-fiction needed anymore (see the 4km x 4km NVIDIA fantasy)

[1] https://opg.optica.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-21-25-30964

replies(3): >>habine+rh1 >>adrian+xA1 >>mlyle+Xz2
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21. jeltz+V71[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:40:59
>>mike_h+rX
By the same token SpaceX has no reason to optimize Starship. That is also largely a government project.
replies(2): >>b112+je1 >>pineau+po1
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22. thephy+y81[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:45:22
>>Findet+w51
Almost none of the parent’s bullet points are solved by building on the Moon instead of in Earth orbit.

The energy demands of getting to the 240k mile Moon are IMMENSE compared to 100 mile orbit.

Ultimately, when comparing the 3 general locations, Earth is still BY FAR the most hospitable and affordable location until some manufacturing innovations drop costs by orders of magnitude. But those manufacturing improvements have to be made in the same jurisdiction that SpaceXAI is trying to avoid building data centers in.

This whole things screams a solution in search of a problem. We have to solve the traditional data center issues (power supply, temperature, hazard resilience, etc) wherever the data centers are, whether on the ground or in space. None of these are solved for the theoretical space data centers, but they are all already solved for terrestrial data centers.

replies(1): >>ethbr1+Kb1
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23. jeltz+H81[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:46:11
>>nosian+k51
I think you missed the point. If you have a 100 MW communicstion satellite and a 100 MW compute satellite those are very different beasts. The first might send 50% of the energy away as radio communication making it effectively a 50 MW satellitefor cooling purposes.
replies(1): >>habine+jg1
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24. ahoka+a91[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:49:01
>>Findet+w51
It has all these problems, plus more.
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25. wombat+B91[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:51:28
>>leoedi+m21
It would make more sense to develop power beaming technology. Use the knowledge from Starlink constellations to beam solar power via microwaves onto the rooftops of data centers
replies(4): >>habine+Te1 >>dsr_+lm1 >>voidfu+Hq1 >>wookma+Tq1
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26. kakaci+C91[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 11:51:29
>>Findet+w51
Yeah, carrying stuff 380k km and still deploying in vacuum (and super dusty ground) doesn't solve anything but adds cost and overhead. One day maybe, but not these next decades nor probably this century.
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27. thephy+Xa1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:00:26
>>mike_h+UO
There is a lot of hand waiving away of the orders of magnitude more manufacturing, more launches, and more satellites that have to navigate around each other.

We still don’t have any plan I’ve heard of for avoiding a cascade of space debris when satellites collide and turn into lots of fast moving shrapnel. Yes, space is big, but low Earth orbit is a very tiny subset of all space.

The amount of propulsion satellites have before they become unable to maneuver is relatively small and the more satellite traffic there is, the faster each satellite will exhaust their propulsion gasses.

replies(2): >>turtle+Fg1 >>krisof+yO1
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28. syncte+eb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:03:05
>>pera+AO
Could this be about bypassing government regulation and taxation? Silkroad only needed a tiny server, not 150kW.

The Outer Space Treaty (1967) has a loophole. If you launch from international waters (planned by SpaceX) and the equipment is not owned by a US-company or other legal entity there is significant legal ambiguity. This is Dogecoin with AI. Exploiting this accountability gap and creating a Grok AI plus free-speech platform in space sounds like a typical Elon endeavour.

replies(7): >>habine+Ne1 >>jacque+We1 >>9dev+tg1 >>Someon+Cm1 >>inglor+gt1 >>zbentl+2v1 >>Schlag+Oy1
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29. ethbr1+Kb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:06:49
>>thephy+y81
In situ iron, titanium, aluminum?
replies(2): >>notaha+vm1 >>mcny+gD1
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30. nkrisc+Kd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:22:54
>>Findet+w51
Sounds more difficult. Not only is the moon further, you also need to use more fuel to land on it and you also have fine, abrasive dust to deal with. There’s no wind of course, but surely material will be stirred up and resettle based on all the landing activity.

And it’s still a vacuum with many of the same cooling issues. I suppose one upside is you could use the moon itself as a heat sink (maybe).

replies(1): >>microt+iF1
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31. b112+je1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:26:28
>>jeltz+V71
It's a private company, is profit motivated, and thus has reason to optimize. That was the parent poster's point.

Starship isn't largely a government project. It was planned a decade before the government was ever involved, they came along later and said "Hey, this even more incredible launch platform you're building? Maybe we can hire SpaceX to launch some things with it?"

Realistically, SpaceX launches far more payload than any government.

replies(2): >>habine+lf1 >>oivey+KH1
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32. habine+Ne1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:30:34
>>syncte+eb1
No. There is no "one weird trick" when it comes to regulation. The company is based in the US, therefore you just go after that.

Anyway, promising some fantasy and never delivering is definitely a typical Elon endeavor.

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33. habine+Te1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:31:48
>>wombat+B91
Why? We have solar panels and fossil fuels at home.
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34. jacque+We1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:32:10
>>syncte+eb1
You misspelled 'hate speech'.
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35. habine+lf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:35:19
>>b112+je1
Haha no. SpaceX survives entirely on money from the US government. It's always been that way.
replies(3): >>thinkc+3m1 >>s-y+xp1 >>lighte+oq1
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36. sdento+nf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:35:27
>>Findet+w51
The 2.5s round trip communication latency isn't going to be great for chat. (Alongside all the other reasons.)
replies(1): >>zbentl+Gv1
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37. habine+jg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:41:52
>>jeltz+H81
No, they didn't. You can't "send away" thermal energy via radio waves. At the temperatures we're talking about, thermal energy is in the infrared. That's blackbody radiation.
replies(2): >>morteh+Qm1 >>adrian+aE1
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38. 9dev+tg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:43:18
>>syncte+eb1
Untrue. Responsible for any spacefaring vessel is in all cases the state the entity operating the vessel is registered in. If it's not SpaceX directly but a shell company in Ecuador carrying out the launch, Ecuador will be completely responsible for anything happening with and around the vessel, period. There are no loopholes in this system.
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39. turtle+Fg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:44:27
>>thephy+Xa1
>There is a lot of hand waiving away of the orders of magnitude more manufacturing, more launches, and more satellites that have to navigate around each other.

This is exactly like the Boring Company plans to "speed up" boring. Lots of hand waving away decades of commercial boring, sure that their "great minds" can do 10x or 100x better than modern commercial applications. Elon probably said "they could just run the machines faster! I'm brilliant".

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40. habine+rh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 12:48:57
>>syncte+B71
It's not as exciting as you think it is. "emissivity higher than 0.99 over a wide range of wavelengths" is basically code for "it's, like, super black"

The limiting factor isn't the emissivity, it's that you're having to rely on radiation as your only cooling mechanism. It's super slow and inefficient and it limits how much heat you can dissipate.

Like the other person said, you can't do any better than blackbody radiation (emissivity=1).

replies(3): >>adrian+ZB1 >>Doctor+WI2 >>nomel+iI3
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41. thinkc+3m1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:20:04
>>habine+lf1
A puzzling statement, could you explain? Most of their revenue now comes Starlink which is mostly private clients. Also it's trivial to look at their launch history and see they have plenty of private clients. For sure the USG is their most important client but "entirely" is flat out wrong.
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42. dsr_+lm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:21:41
>>wombat+B91
Everybody wants a death ray.
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43. notaha+vm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:22:50
>>ethbr1+Kb1
That's a hard problem to solve. Invest enough in solving that problem and you might get the ability to manufacture a radiator out of it, but you're still going to have to transport the majority of your datacenter to the moon. That probably works out more expensive than launching the whole thing to LEO
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44. Someon+Cm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:24:11
>>syncte+eb1
For the sake of an argument, let’s assume "The Outer Space Treaty (1967) has a loophole. If you launch from international waters (planned by SpaceX) and the equipment is not owned by a US-company or other legal entity there is significant legal ambiguity” is 100% true.

To use that loophole, the rockets launched by SpaceX would have to be “not owned by a US-company”. Do you think the US government would allow that to happen?

replies(1): >>JoBrad+FU4
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45. morteh+Qm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:25:58
>>habine+jg1
Your answer makes it seem like you too missed the point. If a Starlink sends a 1000W signal to Earth, that is 1000W of power that does not heat the satellite.
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46. pineau+po1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:36:41
>>jeltz+V71
that is true. They would have failed after their first failed launch. The US government saved them.
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47. s-y+xp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:44:36
>>habine+lf1
Where are you getting this from?
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48. skywho+Sp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:46:54
>>mike_h+UO
All of those “huge overheads” you cite are nothing compared to the huge overhead of building and fueling rockets to launch the vibration- and radiation-hardened versions of the solar panels and GPUs and cooling equipment that you could use much cheaper versions of on Earth. How many permitted, regulated launches would it take to get around the one-time permitting and predictable regulation of a ground-based datacenter?

Are Earth-based datacenters actually bound by some bottleneck that space-based datacenters would not be? Grid connections or on-site power plants take time to build, yes. How long does it take to build the rocket fleet required to launch a space “datacenter” in a reasonable time window?

This is not a problem that needs to be solved. Certainly not worth investing billions in, and definitely not when run by the biggest scam artist of the 21st century.

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49. lighte+oq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:50:11
>>habine+lf1
Entirely? lol not even close.

Source: I am out of LEDs and LASERs and now handle aerospace solar for a private company. Guess who almost everyone in the private sector flies on?

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50. cogman+Fq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:52:18
>>zero_b+CX
ISS cost $150B and a large factor driving that cost was the payload weight.

Minimizing payload at any point was easily worth a billion dollars. And given how heavy and nessisary the radiators are (look them up), you can bet a decent bit of research was invested in making them lightweight.

Heck, one bit of research that lasted the entire lifetime of the shuttle was improving the radiative heat system [1]. Multiple contractors and agencies invested a huge amount of money to make that system better.

Removing heat is one of the most researched problems of all space programs. They all have to do it, and every gram of reduction means big savings. Simply saying "well a DC will need more of it, therefore there must be low hanging fruit" is naive.

[1] https://llis.nasa.gov/lesson/6116

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51. voidfu+Hq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:52:36
>>wombat+B91
Hello SimCity 2000 Microwave Power Plant.
replies(1): >>iFred+Ni2
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52. wookma+Tq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:53:46
>>wombat+B91
Why does that make sense at all
replies(1): >>Jeremy+SJ1
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53. fpolin+2r1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:54:37
>>leoedi+m21
If one kilogram of stuff consumes just 100Wt, then in one month it consumes about 300 MJ. So as long as things works for a year or more energy cost to put them into orbit becomes irrelevant.

To keep things in orbit ion thrusters work nicely and require just inert gases to keep them functioning. Plus on a low Earth orbit there are suggestions that a ramjet that capture few atoms of atmosphere and accelerates them could work.

Radiative cooling scales by 4th power temperature. So if one can design electronics to run at, say, 100 C, then calling would be much less problematic.

But radiation is the real problem. Dealing with that would require entirely different architecture/design.

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54. Allege+4r1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 13:54:43
>>Findet+w51
Still a vacuum so the same heat dissipation issues, adding to it that the lunar dust makes solar panels less usable, and the lunar surface on the solar side gets really hot.
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55. inglor+cs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:01:07
>>leoedi+m21
"But why would you?"

Because the permitting process is much easier and there are way, way fewer authorities that can potentially shut you down.

I think this is the entire difference. Space is very, very lightly regulated, especially when it comes to labor, construction and environmental law. You need to be able to launch from somewhere and you need to automate a lot of things. But once you can do this, you escaped all but a few authorities that would hold power over you down on Earth.

No one will be able to complain that your data center is taking their water or making their electricity more expensive, for example.

replies(3): >>oivey+WF1 >>plorg+7L1 >>DonHop+gc2
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56. elihu+Xs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:05:12
>>leoedi+m21
The main reason is that generating energy in space is very cheap and easy due to how ridiculously effective solar panels are.

Someone mentioned in the comments on a similar article that sun synchronous orbits are a thing. This was a new one to me. Apparently there's a trick that takes advantage of the Earth not being a perfect sphere to cause an orbit to precess at the right rate that it matches the Earth's orbit around the sun. So, you can put a satellite into a low-Earth orbit that has continuous sunlight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun-synchronous_orbit

Is this worth all the cost and complexity of lobbing a bunch of data centers into orbit? I have no idea. If electricity costs are what's dominating the datacenter costs that AI companies are currently paying, then I'm willing to at least concede that it might be plausible.

If I were being asked to invest in this scheme, I would want to hear a convincing argument why just deploying more solar panels and batteries on Earth to get cheap power isn't a better solution. But since it's not my money, then if Elon is convinced that this is a great idea then he's welcome to prove that he (or more importantly, the people who work for him) have actually got this figured out.

replies(2): >>leoedi+G42 >>blastr+C73
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57. cogman+4t1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:06:07
>>mike_h+rX
> has no incentive to heavily optimize anything because the people who built it don't get rich by doing so.

Optimization is literally how contractors working for the government got rich. Every hour they spent on research was directly billed to the government. Weight reduction being one of the most important and consistent points of research.

Heck, R&D is how some of the biggest government contractors make all their dough.

SpaceX is built on the billions in research NASA has invested over the decades. It looks like it's more innovative simply because the USG decided to nearly completely defund public spending in favor of spending money on private contractors like SpaceX. That's been happening since the 90s.

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58. inglor+gt1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:07:12
>>syncte+eb1
You cannot escape national regulations like that, at least until a maritime-like situation develops, where rockets will be registered in Liberia for a few dollars and Liberia will not even pretend to care what they are doing.

It may happen one day, but we are very, very far from that. As of now, big countries watch their space corporations very closely and won't let them do this.

Nevertheless, as an American, you can escape state and regional authorities this way. IIRC The Californian Coastal Commission voted against expansion of SpaceX activities from Vandenberg [1], and even in Texas, which is more SpaceX-friendly, there are still regulations to comply with.

If you launch from international waters, these lower authority tiers do not apply.

[1] https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2025-08-14/california...

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59. zbentl+2v1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:16:51
>>syncte+eb1
In addition to all the sibling comments explaining why this wouldn't work, the money's not there.

A grift the size of Dogecoin, or the size of "free speech" enthusiast computing, or even the size of the criminal enterprises that run on the dark web, is tiny in comparison to the footer cost and upkeep of a datacenter in space. It'd also need to be funded by investments (since criminal funds and crypto assets are quite famously not available in up-front volumes for a huge enterprise), which implies a market presence in some country's economy, which implies regulators and risk management, and so on.

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60. zbentl+Gv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:19:54
>>sdento+nf1
And 2.5s is best case. Signal strength issues, antenna alignment issues, and all sorts of unknown unknowns conspire to make high-integrity/high-throughput digital signal transmissions from a moon-based compute system have a latency much worse than that on average.
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61. adrian+zx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:29:55
>>hirsin+ts
I am willing to bet that more than 10% of the electrical energy consumed by the satellite is converted into transmitted microwaves.

There must be many power consumers in the satellite, e.g. radio receivers, lasers, computers and motors, where the consumed energy eventually is converted into heat, but the radio transmitter of a communication satellite must take a big fraction of the average consumed power.

The radio transmitter itself has a great efficiency, much greater than 50%, possibly greater than 90%, so only a small fraction of the electrical power consumed by the transmitter is converted into heat and most is radiated in the microwave signal that goes to Earth's surface.

replies(1): >>tullia+EE1
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62. Schlag+Oy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:35:36
>>syncte+eb1
This could simply be done by hosting in the Tor hidden service cloud. Accessing illegal material hosted on a satellite is still exactly as risky for the user (if the user is on earth) as accessing that same illegal material through the Tor network, but hosting it through the Tor network can be done for 1/1000th the cost compared to an orbital solution.

So there's no regulatory or tax benefit to hosting in space.

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63. adrian+xA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:43:45
>>syncte+B71
Aluminum foil of great surface will not work very well, because the limited conductivity of a thin foil will create a great temperature gradient through it.

Thus the extremities of the foil, which are far from the satellite body, will be much cooler than the body, so they will have negligible contribution to the radiated power.

The ideal heatsink has fins that are thick close to the body and they become thinner towards extremities, but a heatsink made for radiation instead of convection needs a different shape, to avoid a part of it shadowing other parts.

I do not believe that you can make an efficient radiation heatsink with metallic foil. You can increase the radiating surface by not having a flat surface, but one covered with long fins or cones or pyramids, but the more the surface is increased, the greater the thermal resistance between base and tip becomes, and also the tips limit the solid angle through which the bases radiate, so there must be some optimum shape that has only a limited surface increasing factor over the radiation of a flat body.

replies(1): >>mlyle+yz2
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64. adrian+ZB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:50:50
>>habine+rh1
Yes, graphene appears to offer a negligible improvement over other kinds of paints based on black carbon, e.g. Vantablack.

The research article linked above does not claim a better emissivity than Vantablack, but a resistance to higher temperatures, which is useful for high temperature sensors (used with pyrometers), but irrelevant for a satellite that will never be hotter than 100 Celsius degrees, in order to not damage the electronic equipment.

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65. mcny+gD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 14:57:54
>>ethbr1+Kb1
But none of those are usable, right? It will take decades of work at least to get a commercial grade mining operation going and even then the iron, titanium, aluminum would need to be fashioned...

Ah, I see the idea now. It is to get people to talk about robotics and how robots will be able to do all this on the moon or wherever.

Instantly pumps Tesla stock here now on earth!

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66. adrian+aE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:01:18
>>habine+jg1
You missed the point.

Nobody describes a satellite by specifying the amount of heat that it produces, but by the amount of electrical energy that it consumes.

In a communication satellite, a large fraction of the consumed electrical energy goes into the radio transmitter. Radio transmitters are very efficient and most of the consumed power is emitted as radio waves and only a very small part is converted into heat, which must be handled by the cooling system.

So in any communication satellite, a significant fraction of the consumed energy does not become heat.

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67. tullia+EE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:03:09
>>adrian+zx1
Unfortunately this is not the case. The amplifiers on the transmit-side phased arrays are about 10% efficient (perhaps 12% on a good day), but the amps represent only ~half the power consumption of the transmit phased arrays. The beamformers and processors are 0% efficient. The receive-side phased arrays are of course 0% efficient as well.
replies(1): >>klaff+ws2
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68. microt+iF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:05:40
>>nkrisc+Kd1
> Not only is the moon further, you also need to use more fuel to land on it

And take off again, if reusable spacecraft are meant to be used.

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69. oivey+WF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:08:37
>>inglor+cs1
The satellite is built on Earth, so I’m not sure how it dodges any of those regulations practically. Why not just build a fully autonomous, solar powered datacenter on Earth? I guess in space Elon might think that no one can ban Grok for distributing CSAM?

There’s some truly magical thinking behind the idea that government regulations have somehow made it cheaper to launch a rocket than build a building. Rockets are fantastically expensive even with the major leaps SpaceX made and will be even with Starship. Everything about a space launch is expensive, dangerous, and highly regulated. Your datacenter on Earth can’t go boom.

replies(2): >>inglor+dK1 >>mike_h+zT1
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70. oivey+KH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:16:32
>>b112+je1
Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop, Raytheon, and all the others are private companies, too. NASA and others generally go through contractors to build things. SpaceX is on the dole just like them.
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71. Jeremy+SJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:26:55
>>wookma+Tq1
> Why does that make sense at all

Parent said it would make more sense.

I guess in terms of the relative level of stupidity on display, it would be slightly less stupid to build huge reflectors in space than it is to try to build space datacenters, where the electricity can only power specific pieces of equipment that are virtually impossible to maintain (and are typically obsolete within a few years).

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72. inglor+dK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:28:37
>>oivey+WF1
"fantastically expensive"

From individual POV yes, but already Falcons are not that expensive. In the sense that it is feasible for a relatively unimportant entity to buy their launch services.

"The satellite is built on Earth, so I’m not sure how it dodges any of those regulations practically."

It is easier to shop for jurisdiction when it comes to manufacturing, especially if your design is simple enough - which it has to be in order to run unattended for years. If you outsource the manufacturing to N chosen factories in different locations, you can always respond to local pressure by moving out of that particular country. In effect, you just rent time and services of a factory that can produce tons of other products.

A data center is much more expensive to build and move around. Once you build it in some location, you are committed quite seriously to staying there.

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73. plorg+7L1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:32:56
>>inglor+cs1
So it's a Zone in search of a use case?
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74. krisof+yO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 15:47:51
>>thephy+Xa1
> We still don’t have any plan I’ve heard of for avoiding a cascade of space debris when satellites collide and turn into lots of fast moving shrapnel.

What do you mean we don’t have any plans to avoid that? It is a super well studied topic of satelite management. Full books have been written on the topic.

Here is just one: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20230002470/downloads/CA...

Did you think satelites are kept apart by good luck and providence?

replies(1): >>thephy+fb3
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75. andyjo+PR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 16:02:40
>>leoedi+m21
> So I guess the question is - why bother?

This is a Musk escapade, so my guess would be extraterritoriality and absence of jurisdiction.

replies(1): >>UltraS+vA2
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76. mike_h+zT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 16:10:23
>>oivey+WF1
Truly magical thinking, you say? OK, let's rewind the clock to 2008. In that year two things happened:

- SpaceX launched its first rocket successfully.

- California voted to build high speed rail.

Eighteen years later:

- SpaceX has taken over the space industry with reusable rockets and a global satcom network, which by itself contains more than half of all satellites in orbit.

- Californian HSR has spent over thirteen billion dollars and laid zero miles of track. That's more than 2x the cost of the Starship programme so far.

Building stuff on Earth can be difficult. People live there, they have opinions and power. Their governments can be dysfunctional. Trains are 19th century technology, it should be easier to build a railway than a global satellite network. It may seem truly magical but putting things into orbit can, apparently, be easier.

replies(2): >>msie+E62 >>oivey+vT3
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77. leoedi+G42[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 16:57:18
>>elihu+Xs1
Let's assume your space solar panel is always in sun - so 8760 kWh per year from 1kWp.

In Spain, 1kWp of solar can expect to generate about 1800 kWh per year. There's a complication because seasonal difference is quite large - if we assume worst case generation (ie what happens in December), we get more like 65% of that, or 1170 kWh per year.

That means we need to overbuild our solar generation by about 7.5x to get the same amount of generation per year. Or 7.5kWp.

We then need some storage, because that generation shuts off at night. In December in Madrid the shortest day is about 9 hours, so we need 15 hours of storage. Assuming a 1kW load, that means 15kWh.

European wholesale solar panels are about €0.1/W - €100/kW. So our 7.5kWp is €750. A conservative estimate for batteries is €100/kWh. So our 15kWh is €1500. There's obviously other costs - inverters etc. But perhaps the total hardware cost is €3k for 1kW of off-grid solar.

A communications satellite like the Eurostar Neo satellite has a payload power of 22 kW and a launch mass of 4,500 kg. Assuming that's a reasonable assumption, that means about 204kg per kW. Current SpaceX launch costs are circa $1500 per kg - but they're targeting $100/kg or lower. That would give a launch cost of between $300k and $20k per kW of satellite power. That doesn't include the actual cost of the satellite itself - just the launch.

I just don't see how it will make sense for a long time. Even if SpaceX manage to drastically lower launch costs. Battery and solar costs have also been plummeting.

https://www.spaceconnectonline.com.au/manufacturing/4751-air...

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2025/01/spacex-starship-roadma...

replies(1): >>mike_h+Do2
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78. msie+E62[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 17:06:19
>>mike_h+zT1
it should be easier to build a railway

No, because of the costs of acquiring land that the railway goes through.

replies(1): >>ericd+543
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79. DonHop+gc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 17:32:18
>>inglor+cs1
Libertarian Paradise!

Too bad the fire trucks can't get to you when you catch on fire from that hot GPU.

replies(1): >>ericd+z43
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80. iFred+Ni2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 17:57:44
>>voidfu+Hq1
Looking forward to an CNN breaking chyron titled "Oops!"
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81. mike_h+Do2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 18:21:44
>>leoedi+G42
Thanks for the interesting calculations.

Is it reasonable to use Neo as a baseline? Modern Starlink satellites can weigh 800kg, or less than 20% of Neo. I see discussions suggesting they generate ~73kw for that mass. I guess because they aren't trying to blanket an entire continent in signal? Or, why are they so much more efficient than Neo?

Interestingly the idea of doing compute in space isn't a new one, it came up a few years ago pre-ChatGPT amongst people discussing the v2 satellite:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=58374.msg2...

Still, you make good points. Even if you assume much lighter satellites, the GPUs alone are very heavy. 700kg or so for a rack. Just the payload would be as heavy as the entire Starlink satellite.

replies(1): >>imtrin+uC4
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82. klaff+ws2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 18:37:19
>>tullia+EE1
I'm curious. I think the whole thing (space-based compute) is infeasible and stupid for a bunch of reasons, but even a class-A amplifier has a theoretical limit of 50% efficiency, and I thought we used class-C amplifiers (with practical efficiencies above 50%) in FM/FSK/etc. applications in which amplitude distortion can be filtered away. What makes these systems be down at 10%?
replies(1): >>adrian+8Y2
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83. mlyle+yz2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 19:07:04
>>adrian+xA1
> I do not believe that you can make an efficient radiation heatsink with metallic foil.

What radiators look like is foil or sheet covering fluid loops to spread the heat, control the color, and add surface area.

In general, radiators are white because there's no reason for them to absorb visible light, and they're not hot enough to radiate visible light. You want them to be reflective in the visible spectrum (and strongly absorptive/emissive in the infrared).

A white surface pointing at the sun can be quite cool in LEO, < -40C.

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84. mlyle+Xz2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 19:08:36
>>syncte+B71
What radiators look like is foil or sheet covering fluid loops to spread the heat, control the color, and add surface area.

They are usually white, because things in a spacecraft are not hot enough to glow in visible light and you'd rather they not get super hot if the sun shines on them.

The practical emittance of both black paint and white paint are very close to the same at any reasonable temperature-- and both are quite good, >90% of this magical material that you cite ;)

Better materials -- with less visible absorption and more infrared emittance -- can make a difference, but you still need to convect or conduct the heat to them, and heat doesn't move very well in thin materials as my sibling comment says.

The graphene radiator you cite is more about active thermal control than being super black. Cheap ways to change how much heat you are dumping are very useful for space missions that use variable amounts of power or have very long eclipse periods, or what move from geospace to deep space, etc. Usually you solve it on bigger satellites with louvers that change what color they're exposing to the outside, but those are mechanical parts and annoying.

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85. UltraS+vA2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 19:11:08
>>andyjo+PR1
No. With Musk it is always about inflating his share prices.
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86. Doctor+WI2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 19:56:47
>>habine+rh1
Lets assume an electrical consumption of 1 MW which turned into heat and a concommitant 3 MW which was a byproduct of acquiring 1 MW of electrical energy.

So the total heat load if 4 MW (of which 1 MW was temporarily electrical energy before it was used by the datacenter or whatever).

Let's assume a single planar radiator, with emissivity ~1 over the thermal infrared range.

Let's assume the target temperature of the radiator is 300 K (~27 deg C).

What size radiator did you need?

4 MW / (5.67 * 10 ^ -8 W / ( m ^2 K ^4 ) * 300 K ^4) = 8710 m ^2 = (94 m) ^2

so basically 100m x 100m. Thats not insanely large.

The solar panels would have to be about 3000 m ^2 = 55m x 55m

The radiator could be aluminum foil, and something amounting to a remote controlled toy car could drive around with a small roll of aluminum wire and locally weld shut small holes due to micrometeorites. the wheels are rubberized but have a magnetic rim, on the outside theres complementary steel spheres so the radiator foil is sandwiched between wheel and steel sphere. Then the wheels have traction. The radiator could easily weigh less than the solar panels, and expand to much larger areas. Better divide the entire radiator up into a few inflatable surfaces, so that you can activate a spare while a sever leak is being solved.

It may be more elegant to have rovers on both inside and outside of the radiator: the inner one can drop a heat resistant silicone rubber disc / sheet over the hole, while the outside rover could do the welding of the hole without obstruction of the hole by a stopgap measure.

replies(1): >>mlyle+0W2
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87. mlyle+0W2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 20:52:27
>>Doctor+WI2
> The radiator could be aluminum foil,

As I've pointed it out to you elsewhere -- how do you couple the 4MW of heat to the aluminum foil? You need to spread the power somewhat evenly over this massive surface area.

Low pressure gas doesn't convect heat well and heat doesn't conduct down the foil well.

It's just like how on Earth we can't cool datacenters by hoping that free convection will transfer heat to the outer walls.

replies(1): >>Doctor+l23
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88. adrian+8Y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 21:01:57
>>klaff+ws2
Yes, a 10% efficiency is very weird if true.

Nowadays such microwave power amplifiers should be made with gallium nitride transistors, which should allow better efficiencies than the ancient amplifiers using LDMOS or travelling-wave tubes, and even those had efficiencies over 50%.

For beamformers, there have been research papers in recent years claiming a great reduction in losses, but presumably the Starlink satellites are still using some mature technology, with greater losses.

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89. Doctor+l23[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 21:21:08
>>mlyle+0W2
Lets assume you truly believe the difficulty is the heat transport, then you correct me, but I never see you correct people who believe the thermal radiation step is the issue. It's a very selective form of correcting.

Lets assume you truly believe the difficulty is the heat transport to the radiator, how is it solved on earth?

replies(1): >>mlyle+a63
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90. stonog+E33[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 21:28:18
>>pera+AO
Most of the OEMs are past 300kW racks, planning on 600kW racks within a year or two, with realistic plans to hit a megawatt
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91. ericd+543[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 21:30:52
>>msie+E62
Now how about procuring half a gigawatt when nearby residents are annoyed about their heating bills doubling, and are highly motivated to block you? This is already happening in some areas.
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92. ericd+z43[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 21:33:17
>>DonHop+gc2
Good thing the lack of oxygen does a pretty good job of taking care of that for you ;-)
replies(1): >>DonHop+Db3
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93. mlyle+a63[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 21:42:10
>>Doctor+l23
> Lets assume you truly believe the difficulty is the heat transport, then you correct me, but I never see you correct people who believe the thermal radiation step is the issue

It's both. You have to spread a lot of heat very evenly over a very large surface area. This makes a big, high-mass structure.

> how is it solved on earth?

We pump fluids (including air) around to move large amounts of heat both on Earth and in space. The problem is, in space, you need to pump them much further and cover larger areas, because they only way the heat leaves the system is radiation. As a result, you end up proposing a system that is larger than the cooling tower for many nuclear power plants on Earth to move 1/5th of the energy.

The problem is, pumping fluids in space around has 3 ways it sucks compared to Earth:

1. Managing fluids in space is a pain.

2. We have to pump fluids much longer distances to cover the large area of radiators. So the systems tend to get orders of magnitude physically larger. In practice, this means we need to pump a lot more fluid, too, to keep a larger thing close to isothermal.

3. The mass of fluids and all their hardware matters more in space. Even if launch gets cheaper, this will still be true compared to Earth.

I explained this all to you 15 hours ago:

> If this wasn't a concern, you could fly a big inflated-and-then-rigidized structure and getting lots of area wouldn't be scary. But since you need to think about circulating fluids and actively conducting heat this is much less pleasant.

You may notice that the areas, etc, we come up with here to reject 70kW are similar to those of the ISS's EATCS, which rejects 70kW using white-colored radiators and ammonia loops. Despite the use of a lot of exotic and expensive techniques to reduce mass, the radiators mass about 10 tonnes-- and this doesn't count all the hardware to drive heat to them on the other end.

So, to reject 105W on Earth, I spend about 500g of mass; if I'm as efficient as EATCS, it would be about 15000g of mass.

replies(1): >>mlyle+M34
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94. blastr+C73[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 21:49:36
>>elihu+Xs1
Kind of a scary thought - a DC in space can't be stopped by protests or regulation
replies(1): >>elihu+No3
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95. thephy+fb3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 22:08:10
>>krisof+yO1
I am very aware that the US Air Force / Space Force monitor’s trajectories and calls satellite owners when there is an anticipated collision but that method doesn’t scale, especially with orders of magnitude more satellites in the same LEO shells.

And it still doesn’t solve the problem of a cascade causing shrapnel density to increase in an orbit shell which then causes satellites to use some of their scarce maneuver budget to avoid collision. But as soon as a satellite exhausts that budget, it becomes fodder for the shrapnel cascade.

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96. DonHop+Db3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 22:09:45
>>ericd+z43
And publicly maintained roads.
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97. elihu+No3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-04 23:22:14
>>blastr+C73
That could be one reason they want to do it. Maybe by using data from Palantir or harvested from Elon's work with DOGE, along with twitter user data and whatever else they can get, they want their AI to be the all-seeing eye of Sauron. (Which isn't too far from what the whole ad-tech industry is about in the first place.) Or they want to make sexually explicit deepfakes of everyone Elon doesn't like. Or they want to flood the internet with AI generated right-wing propaganda.
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98. nomel+iI3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-05 01:47:24
>>habine+rh1
> and inefficient

Well acttshually, it's 100% efficient. If you put 1W in, you will get exactly one watt out, steady state. The resulting steady state temperature would be close to watts * steady state thermal resistance of the system. ;)

I don't think you could use "efficiency" here? The math would be based on thermal resistance. How do you get a percentage from that? If you have a maximum operating temperature, you end up with a maximum operating wattage. Using actual operating wattage/desired operating wattage doesn't seem right for "efficiency".

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99. oivey+vT3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-05 03:23:57
>>mike_h+zT1
That’s a strange comparison to make. Those are entirely different sectors and sorts of engineering projects. In this example, also, SpaceX built all of that on Earth.

Why not do the obvious comparison with terrestrial data centers?

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100. mlyle+M34[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-05 05:11:07
>>mlyle+a63
This should say "to move 1/50th the energy".
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101. imtrin+uC4[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-05 10:22:58
>>mike_h+Do2
You can't increase the size of the radiator and reduce the mass of the satellite. How is that supposed to work?

You're also forgetting that Starlink satellites aren't in a sun synchronous orbit which means they have to overbuild the energy generation capacity (low capacity factor) and can simultaneously take advantage of earth's shadow to cool down.

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102. JoBrad+FU4[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-02-05 13:03:26
>>Someon+Cm1
Looks like their ability to stop unauthorized launches is civil action.

https://spacenews.com/faa-fines-spacex-for-launch-license-vi...

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