zlacker

Related, TIL the US is effectively banning residential electric resistance water heaters in 2029, with heat pump water heaters being the only type that can meet the new standards. Users will see a 2-3x in cost difference and a 3 to 8 year payback on savings.

>>hnburn+(OP)
Is that 2-3x before or after the plumber marks it up?

What an exceptionally moronic thing to ban, the market solves this naturally. Resistance heaters are 100% efficient whatever fraction of the year is heating days. So if that's 1/2 the year and the water heater can't last 16yr because of water quality the heat pump heater will never pay you back.

This reminds me a lot of the time some jerks in west coast desert states convinced the feds to regulate plumbing fixtures so that eastern "we take from the river and put back in the river" municipalities that have more water than they know what to do with have to suffer through low flow everything.

>>hnburn+(OP)
If you're making plans 3 years out in the US, you're a fool.

>>hnburn+(OP)
That's a Biden-Harris administration action. What are the chances that Trump deletes it as a 'Democrat/WEF climate hoax con job' as soon as he's made aware of it?

>>hnburn+(OP)
This is exactly the kind of thing government is for, even though it's missing the other half: subsidies. At the very least buying heat pumps for the next 5 years should be tax deductible. Even better: a $2000 or similar rebate.

>>amazin+gk
That's probably exactly what will happen.

    Energy property - Heat pumps and biomass stoves and boilers

    Heat pumps that meet or exceed the CEE highest efficiency tier, not including any advanced tier, in effect at the beginning of the year when the property is installed, and biomass stoves and boilers with a thermal efficiency rating of at least 75% qualify for a credit up to $2,000 per year. Costs may include labor for installation.

    Qualified property includes new:

    Electric or natural gas heat pumps
    Electric or natural gas heat pump water heaters
    Biomass stoves and boilers

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/energy-efficient-home...

>>cucumb+c4
Heat pump water heater (hybrid/HPWH, e.g., 50–65 gallon equivalent): Unit prices range from ~$1,500–$3,000+ (most common models $2,000–$2,500), with total installed costs $2,500–$5,000 (higher if electrical upgrades or space mods needed). Average retrofit/install often lands around $3,000–$4,000.

>>Dangit+Fl
These are credits that only work if you have owe federal taxes and they cannot be carried forward. I've seen estimates that 40-45% of taxpayers owe 0 or close to 0.

>>hnburn+xm
Electrical upgrades are almost always required, and price is more like 7k-9k around here. It's going to be seriously painful for a lot of people.

>>sgc+vu
If you were in the market for an resistive electric heat pump, you likely had the service for it already. A heat pump version will almost always require less power.

>>hnburn+(OP)
I don't know about all heat pump systems, but mine at least requires the water tank to have a resistive immersion too. If the tank temperature gets below some threshold the heat pump refuses to work and turns the immersion on instead until it's warmed up enough.

>>hnburn+Sm
Eh? If you have income you owe taxes, Uncle Sam just takes it before you even see it

>>cucumb+c4
Is the heat pump heater taking heat from inside or outside the house?

>>mrd999+kP
Federal taxes specifically.

>>hnburn+xm
And for small households they virtually never pay for themselves before they die or need expensive maintenance... It only makes sense if you use a lot of water or if your electricity is very expensive. In my case it's even worse, with solar panels and self sufficiency they literally cannot break even

>>direwo+mR
Depends on the model, but a lot use the air from their own room, that's why they can't be installed in small rooms. Models pulling the heat from outside are more expensive and require more labor obviously, and they don't make a lot of sense for places that are bellow 0c multiple month a year as the COP will drop to 1.x and you will most likely need extra electricity for the anti frost cycles

>>amazin+gk
> even though it's missing the other half: subsidies

It's a double edged sword. In my country everyone bought pellet stoves because of the subsidies, hundreds of companies popped up, now that the subsidies have been phased out, 90% of the companies went down, with their support and warranties of course. The 10% that managed to survive increased their prices, which is easy to do once 90% of your competitors went bust

People who thought they'd save money by having the government (their taxes really) pay the bill are waking up 5 years later with expensive maintenance, the first units are starting to fail and need to be replaced but they can't afford it without the 50%+ subsidies. Not to mention that the prices pellets goes up and down faster than your average shitcoin.

>>sgc+vu
If you currently have an electric resistive water heater, a heat pump water heater with the same heating capacity will use 3-4x less power, which means you can use a much smaller circuit.

A 6kW 240V EWH uses 25A, it’ll need #8 wire and a 35A or 40A breaker.

An equivalent HPHW would use 1.5kW at 240V, or 6.25A. You can use #14s and a 15A breaker.

>>amazin+gk
The subsidies and rebates are a scam. The installers just jack up the prices until they capture the entire value of the rebate.

>>cucumb+c4
Heat pumps are effectively more than 100% efficient fyi. You put 1000W of electricity in, you get 2500W of heat going into the water. (Numbers are only illustrative)

Running cost of heat pumps for heating is much much lower than resistive heating.

>>hnburn+Sm
You can also get considerable rebates if your state participates in the "Inflation Reduction Act Home Energy Rebate Program", especially if you are low income. My state is still working on rolling it out but hopefully many people who can't use tax credits will be able to take advantage.

https://www.tn.gov/environment/program-areas/energy/state-en...

>>rayine+181
This assumes the consumer doesn't know and can't look up the price of the hardware.

>>amazin+LM1
The cost of installation vastly exceeds the cost of the hardware. And the installers will only warranty hardware you buy from them.

>>dashun+Hy
My bad, read too quickly. I was thinking of the forced change over from gas water heaters, which is already happening in the California Bay Area and will only expand.

>>hnburn+(OP)
The problem with heat pumps replacing electric heaters (in cold climates) is that the waste cold air gets dumped into the house and needs to be heated again. Generally, electric water heaters are expensive to run compared to gas ones, so people use them in places a gas heater is not possible to install (e.g. no way to vent the exhaust). This also means that the heat pump would have nowhere to vent cold air.

This kind of thing is why I don't like bans like this. The specifics matter a lot.

>>lm2846+lT
But dumping the waste cold air into the house when it's below 0C outside doesn't make much sense either.

>>sgc+vu
Ehh 120v models exist. My 65 gal runs fine on a standard 20a breaker.

>>mrd999+kP
I think something like 25% of the population reports 0 household income.

(I don't understand the implications, it was just surprising when I heard that.)

>>amazin+gk
The problem is, energy use is only one part of the equation. Often times new appliances that are more efficient end up being more prone to breaking due to more complexity and companies trying to cut costs to meet a price point. This leads to people needing to replace there appliances much more often which really makes me question how much energy is actually saved if you include the energy used to produce them...

>>Alexan+rM2
You already dump waste hot air into your kitchen from the refrigerator during the summer. Is this much different?

It does seem a little silly to have these chains of heat pumps all working in various directions. I read about "cold district heat" in a sibling comment which circulated lukewarm water to use as a heat sink or source with heat pumps. Maybe something similar could be done with a water or refrigerant loop through the house. Probably not economical to do all the plumbing though.

>>wffurr+hf3
A hot water heater takes much more power than a fridge

>>wffurr+hf3
> you already dump waste hot air into your kitchen from the refrigerator during the summer. Is this much different?

Heating water is very energy intensive, fridges are a rounding error compared to water heaters

>>Alexan+eL2
Your heat pump ought to be venting the cold air outside in the first place. If you're pulling the heat for your water out of your conditioned air, yeah you're in a losing battle.

>>wffurr+hf3
Everywhere in the country they have basements a huge fraction of them are unheated and probably hover around 38, 40, 35deg in the winter. You dump cold air into that and some % of pipes are going to freeze. And we're talking about a much bigger energy amount, water having high specific heat after all so it is a lot of "cold" being dumped in.

Now, this is of course no concern in the "my water heater is in my attic or attached garage" parts of the country such regulations come from...

>>hnburn+(OP)
That seems like a stupid ban. Heat pump water heaters are impossible to install in many smaller dwellings, even if we're ignoring the need for large storage tanks.

The only problem with resistance heaters is the large current draw to heat water for bathing. Central heating can be done at lower temperatures (as is the case with heat pumps), but bathing cannot.

There are some resistance heaters with built in (electrochemical) batteries aimed at reducing peak current, but I'm assuming the ban would affect those as well...

>>rayine+zP1
Yes I agree that labor costs money.

>>mrd999+kP
They are right, tax credits can't reduce your tax burden below 0 so this incentive does nothing for very low income families.

>>Dangit+Fl
I can't edit it anymore, but I've since learned that Republicans accelerated the expiration on these credits from 2030 to 2025 so they are no longer available. Passed it in the OBBB.