zlacker

[parent] [thread] 155 comments
1. chinat+(OP)[view] [source] 2026-01-15 15:38:09
If you work for Palantir and if you work on these systems: You have blood on your hands. You know that it's not right what is happening on the ground right now. Do something.
replies(13): >>pixl97+V2 >>librar+m5 >>10xDev+s5 >>jonnyb+E7 >>webdoo+ka >>Detect+ra >>harith+Ib >>luxury+Uf >>taude+ii >>NickC2+Zl >>Silver+5n >>empath+kr >>rhubar+8W5
2. pixl97+V2[view] [source] 2026-01-15 15:47:44
>>chinat+(OP)
The particular problem here is the vast majority of people that are writing this software

1. Don't care, blood is great.

2. Think they are the good guys.

3. Are more worried about their next paycheck and having bad things happen to them related to not paying rent.

replies(9): >>hobs+V3 >>Guinan+f8 >>no-dr-+pe >>wat100+Kh >>alecco+Vp >>basket+0r >>fifilu+9t >>moolco+Rt >>aagha+HV3
◧◩
3. hobs+V3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 15:50:36
>>pixl97+V2
Yes, Palantir folks have self selected for the first two over and over - anyone working there for many years now is completely blacklisted from anything I touch, when someone advertises ex-Palantir folks in the job description I know I can safely avoid that company forever.
replies(3): >>lokar+6c >>pixl97+bk >>foobie+yo
4. librar+m5[view] [source] 2026-01-15 15:55:10
>>chinat+(OP)
I assume if someone works for Palantir they're an unabashed Yarvinist and fine with it.
replies(1): >>no-dr-+ma
5. 10xDev+s5[view] [source] 2026-01-15 15:55:39
>>chinat+(OP)
PLTR stock peaked at $200 last year and has been going back up so far this year. People are investing in CCP style tech and don't care.
replies(1): >>Capric+V6
◧◩
6. Capric+V6[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:00:25
>>10xDev+s5
A Palantir rep was supporting one of our exercises late last summer, and he said "Knowing what I know about how the military is going all-in on Maven....I recommend buying Palantir stock."

I picked up a few shares, but I haven't checked if Palantir's growth has been unique or part of a general military-industrial complex melt-up.

replies(2): >>drcong+A8 >>HillRa+no
7. jonnyb+E7[view] [source] 2026-01-15 16:02:36
>>chinat+(OP)
The US gov (including ICE) uses all of Microsoft Office for coordination and planning: email, spreadsheets, powerpoint, document generation, etc. Would you say Microsoft employees have blood on their hands too? If not, what makes Microsoft different?
replies(8): >>miniBi+v8 >>benrut+R8 >>chinat+19 >>vimda+Xb >>biophy+tc >>Zetaph+0d >>dereli+Qh >>creato+UO
◧◩
8. Guinan+f8[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:04:17
>>pixl97+V2
> 3. Are more worried about their next paycheck and having bad things happen to them related to not paying rent.

i feel like a broken record: anyone with a resume good enough for Palantir would have no problem finding work for another company/public sector employer. but they stay.

replies(2): >>wahnfr+ea >>johnny+bc2
◧◩
9. miniBi+v8[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:05:14
>>jonnyb+E7
The same difference between a kitchen knife and an AK 47
◧◩◪
10. drcong+A8[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:05:40
>>Capric+V6
Free blood money.
replies(1): >>Capric+fb
◧◩
11. benrut+R8[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:06:35
>>jonnyb+E7
From the article for context:

> Palantir is working on a tool for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that populates a map with potential deportation targets, brings up a dossier on each person, and provides a “confidence score” on the person’s current address

So essentially, the relevant app here is custom built in order to help ICE raids.

That's substantially different from generic office tech where ICE happen to be one of millions of users.

replies(1): >>Amezar+op
◧◩
12. chinat+19[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:07:03
>>jonnyb+E7
Whataboutism, much?
◧◩◪
13. wahnfr+ea[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:10:44
>>Guinan+f8
They pay a lot
replies(3): >>downri+nh >>aqme28+4i >>embedd+uj
14. webdoo+ka[view] [source] 2026-01-15 16:10:59
>>chinat+(OP)
Hopefully John Connor is one of them. Deeply embedded, slowly implanting backdoors and kill switches into the Skynet system they are building.
◧◩
15. no-dr-+ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:11:05
>>librar+m5
That's a pretty broad generalization, but OK I'll bite.

- I think Yarvin has a lot of good points. No one should be ashamed to admit the truth of a matter. I can't stand his voice, I think he has annoying mannerisms, but nonetheless the man has a point and I'm not ashamed (especially by unknown and strange online personas) to say so.

- Palantir is objectively a profitable job. I've learned a lot here and the people I work with are brilliant.

- I don't think I have "blood on my hands" and rather instead think that people who use that tactic are resorting to strange emotional manipulation in place of a salient argument.

Let's be honest, simply conjecturing that someone ascribes to a political view isn't discourse. It's a potshot. You're assuming that anyone who reads your comment and leans in your direction is going to agree and vote with you. This is literally the lowest and cheapest form of engagement. It's also the most self serving. It does nothing to advance the conversation or prove your point.

Most importantly, this is the exact type of behavior that is furthering political polarization and discouraging actual discourse.

Really shows the state of things right now tbh.

replies(6): >>disgru+6g >>wat100+Gi >>andrew+Nl >>well_a+4J1 >>johnny+Tc2 >>librar+P6q
16. Detect+ra[view] [source] 2026-01-15 16:11:36
>>chinat+(OP)
Palantir does not work in a vacuum - it requires other technology, platforms and systems to operate and succeed - many of which are designed and maintained by the users of Hacker News.

Take a look at Palantir's trust center: https://palantir.safebase.us

Schellman did their audit and compliance - do they have blood on their hands?

How about AWS, GCP, Azure cloud resources used by Palantir - are they stained, too?

replies(7): >>dawner+5c >>LargeW+wc >>clpwn+zd >>AlotOf+fe >>shrika+We >>camill+yi >>prapta+Em
◧◩◪◨
17. Capric+fb[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:14:13
>>drcong+A8
Nah, free blood money was when my General Dynamics shares went from $60->$120, then did a stock split and went from $60-> ~$100. I think that was in....2005? The Stryker (a GD product) was coming into service in Iraq, which drove my purchasing decision. I was an E-4 in Korea at the time and thought I was a defense stock-picking genius.
replies(2): >>embedd+Sj >>HaZeus+8D
18. harith+Ib[view] [source] 2026-01-15 16:15:41
>>chinat+(OP)
In general, if you're working for Palantir, you're unlikely to find yourself in the right side of history. Whenever you hear of tech being used for questionable purposes, Palantir seems to have their fingers deep in the pie.
replies(1): >>15155+B11
◧◩
19. vimda+Xb[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:16:50
>>jonnyb+E7
Office can be used for things that aren't objectively evil?
replies(2): >>small_+Af >>amunoz+wg
◧◩
20. dawner+5c[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:17:22
>>Detect+ra
You can’t minimize the damage Palantir is doing with simple whataboutism.
replies(1): >>Detect+Pd
◧◩◪
21. lokar+6c[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:17:27
>>hobs+V3
I would never allow one of them to be hired via any hiring process I have influence over.
◧◩
22. biophy+tc[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:18:54
>>jonnyb+E7
Taking your argument in good faith: I think selling a tool with a narrow use case tailor-made for ICE is categorically different.
◧◩
23. LargeW+wc[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:19:00
>>Detect+ra
Palantir is built explicitly for surveillance, in a way the other companies you listed are not. There is no comparison here. It's like saying the City of Minneapolis is complicit because they maintain the roads ICE is driving on.
replies(2): >>rvz+Fl >>basket+Zn
◧◩
24. Zetaph+0d[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:20:26
>>jonnyb+E7
Considering that Microsoft is also providing services to the Israeli government with the explicit intent of storing and cataloging all of the phone calls made by Palestinian citizens so that they can be analyzed by AI for potential bombing targets...yes I would say Microsoft also has blood on their hands. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they have deep partnerships with Palantir for compute services.
◧◩
25. clpwn+zd[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:22:03
>>Detect+ra
Certainly you must be aware that there are not just binary values of morality in life. The obvious answer is yes they are stained, as we all are through our participation in various systems, but with vastly varying amounts.

Is the manufacturer of the bomb responsible for when Israel drops it on a family home in Gaza? Yes. Is it the same responsibility as the general who gave the order? No. Is it the same as the pilot who followed the order? No.

Does that make it useless to hold people accountable? Of course not.

replies(1): >>Toucan+Ci
◧◩◪
26. Detect+Pd[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:23:02
>>dawner+5c
It is in fact the contrary: I am trying to maximize it by pointing out how big tech platforms makes it possible.
replies(1): >>dawner+Zi
◧◩
27. AlotOf+fe[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:24:08
>>Detect+ra
The ironworker making steel plates for tanks and ships has a hell of a lot less moral culpability than the engineer designing shells.
◧◩
28. no-dr-+pe[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:24:32
>>pixl97+V2
I'd like to invite you to prove any three of your points.
replies(4): >>speff+lg >>taude+uh >>silver+4j >>pixl97+xl
◧◩
29. shrika+We[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:26:22
>>Detect+ra
> If you work in technology, you are part of this force, whether you like it or not.

Disappointing to see you downvoted. I agree with this partially, but only because I think it applies more broadly.

I work in tech (although not in Big Tech/Mag 7/FAANG/whatever they're called now), and I feel quite acutely that anyone in the field is culpable in part for the enabling the absolutely massive dump that the capital-adjacent class is taking on the world to have their power play fantasies play out.

To the extent that I've started apologising on behalf of the field/profession to non-technical folks when they complain about yet another dark pattern/"growth hack" designed to steal their attention and money.

◧◩◪
30. small_+Af[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:29:02
>>vimda+Xb
All things done with office must be evil by association.

(Except clippy, he's just a guy)

31. luxury+Uf[view] [source] 2026-01-15 16:30:10
>>chinat+(OP)
Wouldn’t it be even more fair to say that the people who allowed or even encouraged illegal immigration have blood on their hands because they know what they were doing and how the government would have to respond under the law? If we are going to use the line of reasoning you suggest then this should easily be on the table also.
replies(2): >>plorg+Wj >>GolfPo+Tp
◧◩◪
32. disgru+6g[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:31:02
>>no-dr-+ma
I'm vouching for this comment (even though I disagree with it) as it's important to hear dissenting views.
◧◩◪
33. speff+lg[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:32:14
>>no-dr-+pe
It’s hard to prove without knowing the app devs, but for points 1 & maybe 2, we can look at whether Americans think the raids are justified.

28% of them think they are [0]. It wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility that the devs would be part of that number

Edit: it looks like the poll it’s for the recent incident of the woman who was shot - my mistake. Then I would assume the number for the raids themselves is higher

[0]: https://x.com/YouGovAmerica/status/2010853750618063016

◧◩◪
34. amunoz+wg[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:32:49
>>vimda+Xb
Maybe, but Office is evil itself.
◧◩◪◨
35. downri+nh[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:36:38
>>wahnfr+ea
Another arm of the murder cult
◧◩◪
36. taude+uh[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:36:56
>>no-dr-+pe
You don't think most people are motivated by their personal paychecks?

People need paychecks. Not everyone is going to get to build and lead their own businesses?

replies(1): >>welcom+Yw
◧◩
37. wat100+Kh[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:37:34
>>pixl97+V2
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

Getting a worker to understand that their work negatively affects innocent people is a big uphill battle.

replies(1): >>prapta+Np
◧◩
38. dereli+Qh[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:37:45
>>jonnyb+E7
Yes, absolutely. These are criminal scum, on par with pedos. Just look at how they are helping a people getting wiped out from their own territory in the Middle East.
◧◩◪◨
39. aqme28+4i[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:38:36
>>wahnfr+ea
As would any other job that these devs could get. If you're working at Palantir, it very isn't likely because of of financial desperation.
40. taude+ii[view] [source] 2026-01-15 16:39:08
>>chinat+(OP)
Meh, I blame social media specifically and media generally for the state of our country. Why call out just Palantir. The US, maybe the world, would be better off if companies like Meta (and others) didn't exist....
◧◩
41. camill+yi[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:40:06
>>Detect+ra
Yes, they all are. Profits and shareholders value trump anything else. So yes, they are accomplices in the destruction of American democracy.
◧◩◪
42. Toucan+Ci[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:40:12
>>clpwn+zd
Respectfully, this is cheap cope. The bomb maker didn't know when he made the bomb, maybe. Now he knows, as do all the people turning the gears on this meat grinder, including a bunch of people here.

If you value your comfy life over the well being of others and the future of not only the country, but without an ounce of hyperbole, the human race, then keep your head down. If you don't, fuckin DO SOMETHING.

You know all those times you've said or heard others say "well if I was in Germany in the 30's...." well, guess what, games fuckin real now. So act like the person you want to be.

replies(1): >>NoMore+Ix
◧◩◪
43. wat100+Gi[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:40:17
>>no-dr-+ma
Can you elaborate on some of Yarvin's points you think are good?
replies(2): >>ceejay+nj >>mindsl+1p
◧◩◪◨
44. dawner+Zi[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:41:33
>>Detect+Pd
No you literally went the what about route.
◧◩◪
45. silver+4j[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:42:08
>>no-dr-+pe
> JP Doherty did not want to sign the email. But he knew he didn’t have a choice. His son, Rhys, was scheduled to have strabismus surgery in January, correcting an eye issue that made it difficult for him to walk on his own. The procedure cost $10,000 out of pocket. Doherty discussed the decision with his wife, and while she wanted him to be able to quit, they both knew the kids needed his health insurance. [0]

Regarding Musk's "hardcore" ultimatum at Twitter.

[0]https://www.vanityfair.com/news/elon-musk-twitter-ultimatum

◧◩◪◨
46. ceejay+nj[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:42:51
>>wat100+Gi
https://x.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1050391663552671744
◧◩◪◨
47. embedd+uj[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:43:09
>>wahnfr+ea
Guess why
◧◩◪◨⬒
48. embedd+Sj[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:44:56
>>Capric+fb
I had to pull out of US stocks/market completely last year after I felt dirty just having money in a country sliding into authoritarianism. Interesting where different people draw different lines :)
replies(1): >>footy+Xo1
◧◩
49. plorg+Wj[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:45:16
>>luxury+Uf
This rests on the assumption that the government has to respond with violence.
replies(1): >>luxury+452
◧◩◪
50. pixl97+bk[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:46:07
>>hobs+V3
The unfortunate converse is there are plenty of other software companies looking for that .gov money that would pick these less than scrupulous employees right up.
◧◩◪
51. pixl97+xl[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:51:45
>>no-dr-+pe
Then what, pray tell, is their motivation?
◧◩◪
52. rvz+Fl[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:52:13
>>LargeW+wc
Except that the owners of AWS (Amazon) GCP (Google) and Azure (Microsoft) are all defense contractors for the Department of War.

All of them work directly / indirectly with ICE.

◧◩◪
53. andrew+Nl[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:52:37
>>no-dr-+ma
Can you describe at what point someone would “have blood on their hands” in your view?

The problem in my mind is that these systems are exclusively in service of dishonesty. ICE is clearly being used to further political ends. If it were actually trying to stem immigration it wouldn’t concentrate its officers in a state with one of the lowest rates of illegal immigrants.

Are you saying you agree with that cause or that you bear no responsibility?

replies(2): >>alpine+zs >>no-dr-+MT
54. NickC2+Zl[view] [source] 2026-01-15 16:53:01
>>chinat+(OP)
A guy I grew up with that works at Palantir.

Here's his thinking:

1. He's white and lives in a blue state. Doesn't affect him. Oh, and money. 2. The attention on Palantir and their customers makes his stock and options go up. He's happy, because money. 3. His GOP-worshipping parents get to brag to their GOP-worshipping friends that their son is helping God's Gift to Humanity - Donald Trump. And making bank while doing it. 4. He believes that Palantir is doing good work, and that's the end of it. He believes himself to be a genuinely good guy, so if he's doing something, it must be good.

◧◩
55. prapta+Em[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:55:01
>>Detect+ra
Yes, this is how market economy works. For every organization doing horrible things, literally everyone is a small number of payment-handshakes from it.

No, it doesn't mean that "mr gotcha"[1] argument is valid. You don't have to isolate yourself from society Kaczynski-style to either criticize society or to do something smaller (like choosing who you work for).

[1] https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

replies(1): >>basket+Vo
56. Silver+5n[view] [source] 2026-01-15 16:56:55
>>chinat+(OP)
It looks like their CTO is an Indian or Pakistani: https://investors.palantir.com/governance/executive-manageme...

I wonder how he feels about what the administration is doing and how his own work is directly helping them. Surely he is aware of all of the supremacist rhetoric coming from the official Twitter accounts of various government agencies or Elon Musk or Stephen Miller. Surely he has seen the kind of racist abuse that Vivek Ramaswami endured on Twitter, which led to him recently quitting social media.

Doesn’t he see how all of this is going to come for people like himself next?

replies(1): >>ceejay+Ip
◧◩◪
57. basket+Zn[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 16:59:36
>>LargeW+wc
Not really. Palantir is data integration and analysis software that in some cases (like ICE) can be used for surveillance. There are also thousands of commercial clients who use Palantir for completely non surveillance workflows, as well as many other government teams who use Palantir for non surveillance things. This is all public information.
replies(1): >>anon_s+rO
◧◩◪
58. HillRa+no[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:01:10
>>Capric+V6
Man, back when I was doing Big Consulting (including gov't/defense) I had to affirmatively declare every year to Legal that I wasn't directing any investment purchases or doing anything that could be construed as improper use of nonpublic knowledge. And now Palantir reps just out here pushing insider trading tips like it's nothing, smdh.
◧◩◪
59. foobie+yo[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:01:42
>>hobs+V3
Same. I would never allow anyone who has Palantir on their resume to be hired in any company I have influence over. They are the brownshirts of the tech industry, worse even than the people poisoning children's minds at Meta.
◧◩◪
60. basket+Vo[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:02:59
>>prapta+Em
Sure, but in that case your rage should be directed at ICE / the federal government. Not a third party software vendor.
replies(2): >>prapta+Dq >>foobie+su
◧◩◪◨
61. mindsl+1p[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:03:24
>>wat100+Gi
Honest-to-God truthfully, reading Moldbug is what made me realize the speciousness of pure rightism and ushered my journey from a rightist-axiomatic "Libertarian" / ancap to a centrist-qualitative libertarian-without-labels that sees left and right thinking as both necessary parts of a complete whole. But YMMV, apparently!

In general I think whenever you find a "red pill", you also end up confronted with a whole slew of new easy answers. Whether you end up buying into them or not really comes down to who you are as a person.

replies(1): >>jasond+Pf1
◧◩◪
62. Amezar+op[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:04:59
>>benrut+R8
You're going to have to explain to me why it's a bad thing or immoral for the government to be aware of where immigrants who legally need to be deported live.
replies(3): >>tremon+is >>benrut+eT >>greyco+qS1
◧◩
63. ceejay+Ip[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:06:04
>>Silver+5n
> Doesn’t he see how all of this is going to come for people like himself next?

People are often remarkably good at this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National...

◧◩◪
64. prapta+Np[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:06:15
>>wat100+Kh
That's not my experience from the time I worked for Google. The popular sentiment was actually "We now work for a company that dropped 'don't be evil' and that sucks". See Manu Cornet comics - they are a pretty good reflection of the sentiment I'm talking about, a random example https://goomics.net/387

And it's not like everyone just complained for moral posturing and then continued to wipe the tears of disgust with wads of cash. Many people who left also mentioned the ethics part as why they left.

replies(1): >>foobie+6t
◧◩
65. GolfPo+Tp[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:06:45
>>luxury+Uf
People like... Donald Trump, prominent employer of illegal labor for decades?

If you want to go after prominent employers of illegal labor (and others who profit from it) I shan't shed a tear. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening.

◧◩
66. alecco+Vp[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:06:57
>>pixl97+V2
In a thread last year a Palantir employee said most of them were either Indian, East Asians, or laid off and/or unemployable White males. Good luck guilt-tripping any of them.

Note: I'm not American, nor White/WASP, nor Asian.

◧◩◪◨
67. prapta+Dq[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:09:00
>>basket+Vo
The rage should be dependent on the contribution. You mention a third party software vendor who produces tools that aren't even "dual-use" with respect to the abuse by ICE, they are specifically tailored. That's not the same as, say, providing electricity to them.
replies(1): >>basket+nu
◧◩
68. basket+0r[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:10:28
>>pixl97+V2
I don’t think it’s really this simple. Palantir is a major government contractor that enables it to be more tech savvy. It’s embedded through hundreds of teams / agencies. You can’t remain a credible partner if you play morality police on every workflow. Palantir has worked through multiple administrations of both parties and have to support whoever is in power to have a seat at the table.

Ultimately the question is just: would you prefer to have a competent or incompetent government?

Otherwise you can agree or disagree with government policies, but that shouldn’t be directed at tech vendors, it should be directed at politicians and people in government / at the voting booth.

replies(3): >>chinat+Vv >>3form+qA >>standa+qM
69. empath+kr[view] [source] 2026-01-15 17:11:27
>>chinat+(OP)
Palantir has been doing awful shit since it started, so you have to presume that anybody that works there is on board with it.
◧◩◪◨
70. tremon+is[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:15:09
>>Amezar+op
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
replies(1): >>Amezar+1t
◧◩◪◨
71. alpine+zs[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:15:54
>>andrew+Nl
It makes perfect sense to concentrate law enforcement in a state that is in defiance. Even if the absolute numbers are low, the state cannot back down from enforcing the law because some people are resisting. Otherwise you invite anyone to disregard any law they don’t like. The state won’t allow this and the only way to overcome this is either to change the law or toss out the government, and only one options is realistic. And btw I am against deportations of people who have committed no felonies unrelated to immigration.
replies(3): >>_bohm+Xu >>andrew+my >>mindsl+fA
◧◩◪◨⬒
72. Amezar+1t[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:17:44
>>tremon+is
That’s not an answer. Please explain why it’s a bad thing that Palantir had produced an application that shows ICE agents the probable addresses of people they’re supposed to deport along with information about them.

If the answer is “I don’t believe in immigration law and the government should not enforce it regardless of what people vote for”, that’s a completely acceptable answer.

replies(3): >>tremon+nw >>mlsu+4x >>unethi+nJ
◧◩◪◨
73. foobie+6t[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:17:56
>>prapta+Np
Due to background, I know a lot of people who work at google, and while many of them will give lipservice to ethical concerns, none of them have made any changes at all because, and this is an exact quote, "the money is too good."
◧◩
74. fifilu+9t[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:18:10
>>pixl97+V2
Not surprised. At least 30% of the population voted for the current president. Should be some software developers among those?
replies(2): >>rootus+vS1 >>johnny+Zb2
◧◩
75. moolco+Rt[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:20:35
>>pixl97+V2
"The most monstrous monster is the monster with noble feelings"
◧◩◪◨⬒
76. basket+nu[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:22:45
>>prapta+Dq
They are dual use. Palantir creates platforms (Foundry, Gotham) which are used by ICE but also thousands of other companies. Are you saying that just because ICE tailors these platforms to their workflows they’re not dual use? That feels akin to saying some super complicated excel workflow used by a company means excel is not dual use.
◧◩◪◨
77. foobie+su[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:22:57
>>basket+Vo
Palantir does a ton of customization and consulting for specific use cases. This isn't like Microsoft Excel being used to track uranium enrichment in Iran, it is a direct, explicit part of their business.

Even if you do nothing else of impact in your life, you can stop defending the bad guys.

replies(1): >>basket+kv
◧◩◪◨⬒
78. _bohm+Xu[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:24:24
>>alpine+zs
I think most people involved in protests would not characterize the thing they are resisting as merely "law enforcement". What they are experiencing is an occupation by a politically weaponized paramilitary organization which is going door-to-door in their neighborhoods wearing masks, wielding ARs, yelling at people and brutalizing them. How do you think you would react if this was taking place in your community?
replies(1): >>alpine+pF
◧◩◪◨⬒
79. basket+kv[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:25:24
>>foobie+su
So because they show people how to use their software they’re evil?
replies(1): >>foobie+Tx
◧◩◪
80. chinat+Vv[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:27:05
>>basket+0r
> Ultimately the question is just: would you prefer to have a competent or incompetent government?

Is this a joke? Have you looked at the current administration?

replies(1): >>basket+6x
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
81. tremon+nw[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:28:43
>>Amezar+1t
I wasn't answering you. I was calling out the vicious sleight of hand where you reduce what ICE is doing to the innocently-sounding "immigrants who legally need to be deported".
replies(1): >>Amezar+Ny
◧◩◪◨
82. welcom+Yw[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:30:06
>>taude+uh
When we stop tying our health insurance to our employment, we'll see a drastic uptick in people starting their own businesses. Working at company Z because their health insurance is fully paid for by the employer vs working at company Y where it costs you 1,400 a month for HDHP but the salaries are the same shouldn't be a thing

At least that's my theory.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
83. mlsu+4x[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:30:18
>>Amezar+1t
Because these systems are not only used on illegal immigrants. To give you a very clear example: a US citizen was murdered without any due process a few days ago by ICE.

Because surveilling people -- PEOPLE, not citizens -- without probable cause is a violation of the US constitution?

It is a bad thing because it leads to innocent people being brutalized, it's a violation of the constitution, it's very clearly the primary tool of an increasingly authoritarian government?

replies(1): >>Amezar+6y
◧◩◪◨
84. basket+6x[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:30:30
>>chinat+Vv
Haha, true, although I meant competent from a tech perspective. The reason Palantir is even in the building is because the government is notoriously bad at technology.

You need to separate government institutions ability to use tech from Trumps obvious buffoonery.

replies(1): >>rootus+6U1
◧◩◪◨
85. NoMore+Ix[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:32:27
>>Toucan+Ci
>If you value your comfy life over the well being of others and the future of not only the country

For people who think borders are just lines, our country as geography doesn't even exist. It's just lines. For people who think that all people are the same, everywhere, and deserve to go where they please, our country as a people doesn't exist either.

So if that's your conception of a country, why should I care about it at all? It's just a random place I happened to be born, and its disloyalty to me outweighs any I might show it. I inherited a house jointly with the rest of you, and you keep letting squatters live here for free. Once they're here, you screech if anyone tries to evict them. If I complain about them punching holes in the drywall and shitting in the kitchen sink, you tell me I'm racist. Whatever else, you and I are incompatible, and I am out of options.

replies(3): >>Toucan+kI >>buelle+gS >>NonHyl+Qf1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
86. foobie+Tx[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:33:06
>>basket+kv
They aren't just showing people how to use their software. Stop defending the bad guys.
replies(1): >>basket+DA
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
87. Amezar+6y[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:34:06
>>mlsu+4x
“Due process” is not a magic incantation. This is emotional, moralizing rhetoric that doesn’t persuade anyone. People who insert themselves into operations involving the state’s actors who have a monopoly on violence are risking their lives and legal jurisprudence has upheld the state’s actions to stop them by whatever means necessary in similar cases many, many times. And it’s obvious things could not operate in any other way. The state cannot give you a free pass to stop the operation of law enforcement and they definitely can’t give you a free pass to run over the agents of the state. “Due process” does not factor in to live situations that have a risk of death or injury. (It also doesn’t mean a court case. People talk about it in this thread as though the administrative orders issued by immigration judges aren’t due process.)

I don’t have a problem if people want to acknowledge this and risk their lives knowingly in protest of whatever they don’t like, but it’s absurd to pretend that’s not what you’re doing. I don’t think that’s what’s happening though when Good’s girlfriend asked why they were using real bullets.

The state having your address is also not surveillance in any meaningful sense.

edit: I'm ratelimited so I can't reply to the reply: no, he didn't answer. These people did get due process. So it's about something else. ICE is being used for its legally authorized purpose, which yes, includes removing people who illegally hinder them.

replies(3): >>standa+ZJ >>NonHyl+Ac1 >>johnny+zd2
◧◩◪◨⬒
88. andrew+my[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:35:03
>>alpine+zs
I mean this idea of defiance is absurd. People here are 99.9% exercising their constitutional rights. The majority of crimes happening at this moment are ICE infringing on people’s constitutional rights. I appreciate you sharing your perspective but that logic exists in isolation from the reality. ICE are so bad at policing they are creating more crimes than they are solving.

Of course with the Trump FBI the message is loud and clear, those crimes will not be investigated

replies(1): >>alpine+VI
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
89. Amezar+Ny[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:37:01
>>tremon+nw
That’s what they’re doing, once you peer through the mad filter of propaganda that’s popular in some small circles.
◧◩◪◨⬒
90. mindsl+fA[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:44:15
>>alpine+zs
> It makes perfect sense to concentrate law enforcement in a state that is in defiance

Using the word "defiance" indicates that your perspective is decidedly not American.

Both the States and the Federal government are co-sovereign, mediated by the US Constitution that spells out the rights and responsibilities of each. The Federal government is currently in willful and flagrant default of this founding charter - both overall in terms of how it is supposed to function (offices being executed in good faith forming checks and balances), as well as openly flouting the handful of hard limits outlined in the Bill of Rights. As such, the Federal government has lost the legal authority to dictate anything to the States.

It is of course still prudent to recognize the realpolitik of the "Federal government" having command of a lawless paramilitary force currently unleashing terror and mayhem on civil society. But the point is that we need to work towards re-establishing law and order in terms of the remaining functioning sovereigns.

replies(1): >>alpine+aH
◧◩◪
91. 3form+qA[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:44:48
>>basket+0r
> You can’t remain a credible partner if you play morality police on every workflow

Sure. That's the price to pay for not setting morality aside. One that they're not willing to pay.

replies(1): >>basket+nM
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
92. basket+DA[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:45:45
>>foobie+Tx
I’m not defending the “bad guys”. The original argument was about moral culpability based on distance from the bad deed. Microsoft could have just as easily refused Azure for the ICE contract, but they didn’t, yet somehow they are just far enough away to not be culpable.
◧◩◪◨⬒
93. HaZeus+8D[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 17:57:31
>>Capric+fb
They're both free blood money, I won't allow these deflections to go uncontested.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
94. alpine+pF[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:08:04
>>_bohm+Xu
Of course the brutality is not desirable, but to stay in perspective, what would you suggest they do to still enforce the law efficiently but without this forcefulness? They can’t do it the normal way when they are constantly watched and their targets are warned beforehand by whistles and apps and they can’t and shouldn’t back down on enforcing the law.
replies(4): >>_bohm+WI >>mindsl+3Q >>ok_dad+BZ >>cogman+yr1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
95. alpine+aH[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:16:40
>>mindsl+fA
They are certainly NOT co-sovereign, that is an absurd statement as states cannot leave the Union. Any sovereign party can withdraw from a treaty. The states are represented in their ability to collectively steer the federal government by Congress and the Electoral College. The feds are currently enforcing the ill will of both which sadly is the result of last elections.
replies(1): >>mindsl+4I
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
96. mindsl+4I[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:20:38
>>alpine+aH
I said co-sovereign, not that they're both independently sovereign (required for your treaty example). This is straightforward law, go read up on it. States are considered sovereign themselves, with powers limited by the US Constitution - the same qualification as the Federal government.
replies(1): >>alpine+BY
◧◩◪◨⬒
97. Toucan+kI[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:21:30
>>NoMore+Ix
I don't believe borders should exist, but they do. If you say otherwise you are simply in denial. Borders are promises of violence made by nation-states, which I also don't believe in, which nevertheless exist and are harming people.

Whatever ideological differences we may have, need to be shelved. We can bicker about that later. For now, the border of the U.S. exists, and it's killing people.

replies(1): >>dragon+2J
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
98. alpine+VI[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:23:40
>>andrew+my
ICE officers are bad at policing because they were a paper pusher/investigative agency which should always be assisted by local law enforcement. Most of the other feds operate like that. The administration dramatically increased ICE workload and in addition to that the local police is not always cooperative, and they are being obstructed by protesters. Of course they are fumbling around and making lots of mistakes, but again, they can not give up on enforcing the federal law.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
99. _bohm+WI[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:23:44
>>alpine+pF
I don't accept the framing that this is about law enforcement in the first place. I believe that this administration is run by xenophobic right wing extremists who care little for the distinction between legal and illegal immigration. They have weaponized ICE against the Somali community in Minneapolis today, the overwhelming majority of whom are legal refugees. As we have seen, they will not hesitate to weaponize ICE against anyone else who crosses them. I believe the organization does not exist to protect or serve the interests of the American public and should be abolished.
replies(1): >>alpine+kT
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
100. dragon+2J[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:24:18
>>Toucan+kI
> Whatever ideological differences we may have, need to be shelved. We can bicker about that later. For now, the border of the U.S. exists, and it's killing people.

The ideological differences are, in no small part (directly or implicitly) over whether the border should exist and whether it killing the people it kills is a good or a bad thing. Can’t really just shelve that.

replies(1): >>Toucan+SJ
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
101. unethi+nJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:25:24
>>Amezar+1t
I'll engage.

First: I do not believe immigration laws should be enforced in their entirety vis-a-vis mass deportation. Decades of flawed immigration laws, flawed employment laws and flawed enforcement have led to the current situation where millions of people are in this country undocumented, who are otherwise law-abiding, decent people who contribute to their communities and love the US. The rhetoric about immigrants being a drain on society are flawed at best, and hatefully wrong and bad faith at worst.

Second: If we want to get a handle on immigration volume and change the system so fewer people are undocumented, the correct response logistically and morally is to create a path to legal status (not citizenship) for those currently here, who have been here for a long time, who have families and who have not committed violent crime.

Third: If someone wanted to maximize the effectiveness of immigration enforcement resources for the purpose of safety using deportation, they would still be doing targeting of violent offenders. They clearly are not. Stephen Miller wants all undocumented people out of this country because he is a white supremacist. When "moderating forces" in the administration tried to push back on raids at farms and factories, Miller angrily protested and got Trump to change his mind back to indiscriminate mass deportation.

Third, pt 2: If Republicans were serious about measured but effective reforms to reduce immigration, they would have accepted the 2024 legislative package that capped asylum volume and vastly increased border patrol and border judiciary resources to expedite cases and get people back out of the country in a fraction of the time the current system requires. Instead, they wanted to win the 2024 election with immigration as a wedge issue, and they want to pursue a maximalist position of fear and mass removal.

Fourth: The US federal government is a semi-democracy. We have a single-choice, no-runoff election system in most of the country that forces an extremist-friendly two party system, and the presidential election is further removed from popular choice by the electoral college. The president is the least "democratic" elected position in the nation. I do not think most people support the extent of the violence and maximalism of the administration.

Fifth: The surveillance technology being adopted by the government is not being used solely on undocumented citizens.

Finally: If I were in charge and wanted to take a stance on immigration, I would do largely what was in the 2024 bill, I would set up a work visa program for industries that heavily utilize undocumented labor, and I would target recent arrivals and criminals for deportation - not all undocumented residents.

---

TLDR: We're arresting and deporting veterans, PhD students critical of US policy, and people who have lived here for decades as part of the "American Dream" who have done no harm to our country. What is being done is not in the name of safety nor does it even indirectly improve the lives of Americans. Surveillance and tracking tools are being deployed against all citizens. In the broader context of the behavior and statements of Miller/Trump/Vance et al, this is part of a multi-pronged attack on democracy and the freedom of citizens from government intrusion.

Edit: and all of this debate is without the context of an administration that has declared itself above the law domestically and internationally, that has invaded a country for oil and is currently preparing to invade a treaty member of our strongest military alliance to steal their natural resources. So if the parent wonders why some people are hostile at debating this, it's because to debate the point at all is to ignore obvious truths.

replies(1): >>NickC2+2S
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
102. Toucan+SJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:27:27
>>dragon+2J
Well I figured that case was already covered in the previous comment.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
103. standa+ZJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:27:43
>>Amezar+6y
He answered your question perfectly now you're rolling your eyes at the concept of due process, which has little to do with the original conversation (why is Palantir bad?) Do you just like being contrarian?
replies(1): >>johnny+Kd2
◧◩◪◨
104. basket+nM[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:37:42
>>3form+qA
Palantir's ICE contract itself is 30 million over 2 years. Thats 15 mil a year, where this past year's total revenue was ~4B. Thats about .00375 of their revenue. I hardly think it's the literal contract money they care so deeply about.
◧◩◪
105. standa+qM[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:37:43
>>basket+0r
Here's a better question, in line with your positioning... Is Palantir necessary to a "competent government"

I think you know the answer to that.

replies(1): >>basket+zR
◧◩◪◨
106. anon_s+rO[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:46:00
>>basket+Zn
From the article

> Palantir is working on a tool for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that populates a map with potential deportation targets, brings up a dossier on each person, and provides a “confidence score” on the person’s current address, 404 Media has learned. ICE is using it to find locations where lots of people it might detain could be based.

Is ICE using a general purpose app for surveillance or is Palantir making a deportation-centric app for ICE?

◧◩
107. creato+UO[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:47:35
>>jonnyb+E7
Microsoft is a modern IBM holocaust tabulation machine. Yes, many of the people who work for Microsoft should be prosecuted and put in prison for war crimes, with varying degrees of culpability. There are people in MS who knowing negotiated deals that aided and abetted war crimes, and those who wrote morally repugnant military surveillance software that was used to automate mass murder in the Gaza holocaust.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
108. mindsl+3Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:51:14
>>alpine+pF
Efficiency has never been a goal of US governance, especially in how it interacts with the People. This is deliberate. Read up on the events around the American Revolution if you want to see why that is. There are actually a lot of arguments being trotted out today that were trotted out back then, by the British.
◧◩◪◨
109. basket+zR[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 18:57:36
>>standa+qM
The government is notoriously terrible at tech. Are you debating that? Out of the top tech talent over the last 20 years, how many of them do you suppose work in FAANG vs the US government?

I'm not saying Palantir specifically is necessary, but I do think finding avenues for Silicon valley to help the US government is necessary for them to be tech competent.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
110. NickC2+2S[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:00:30
>>unethi+nJ
>The rhetoric about immigrants being a drain on society are flawed at best, and hatefully wrong and bad faith at worst.

Ironically all the big wealthy GOP donors all hire illegal laborers to clean their homes and mow their lawns, and to maintain the golf courses at clubs they belong to. But we can't actually have the conversation about illegal immigration get to the root causes of why immigrants are actually here, now can we?

> Stephen Miller wants all undocumented people out of this country because he is a white supremacist.

Another point of irony - most of the ardent white nationalists from the heartland of America would be aghast to learn that Miller is a rich Jew from Southern California whose grandparents were immigrants. For a lot of them, Jews are explicitly NOT white nor are they American.

> If Republicans were serious about measured but effective reforms to reduce immigration, they would have accepted the 2024 legislative package that capped asylum volume and vastly increased border patrol and border judiciary resources to expedite cases and get people back out of the country in a fraction of the time the current system requires.

Or, even earlier, they could have backed e-Verify as federal minimum standard for all employment as far back as the 1980s. But no, let's not go after the businesses hiring illegal laborers.

replies(1): >>cogman+Fm1
◧◩◪◨⬒
111. buelle+gS[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:01:25
>>NoMore+Ix
I believe in borders; my taxes fund my government, and not someone else's. However, there is no US-American "people" aside from the indigenous people who have been massacred. Ever since, it has always been whoever has been here.
replies(1): >>chinat+ca1
◧◩◪◨
112. benrut+eT[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:05:55
>>Amezar+op
You were arguing that the use of Microsoft office vs the bespoke Palantir app were equivelent, and I'm simply pointing out that they are very different.

I'm a stranger on the internet, if you don't already think that the USA's immigration raids and camps are a bad thing, I'm probably not going to be the one to convince you otherwise.

There's a lot of good journalism and commentary on the topic, so if you want to have your mind changed, do a web search and read from people much smarter and more knowledgable than me.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
113. alpine+kT[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:06:45
>>_bohm+WI
The American public has sadly elected this administration. I agree with you in principle, especially when legal immigrants become targets. But again, if the actions of this administration are not just morally wrong but illegal there are courts, and in any case there are elections. The people of one state or one city can not obstruct the will of the Union, it is fundamentally undemocratic way of interfacing with the fairly elected government.
replies(1): >>_bohm+w31
◧◩◪◨
114. no-dr-+MT[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:07:45
>>andrew+Nl
I don't think I would ever "have blood on my hands" in my current position as a software developer because Gotham and Foundry have valid and real world use cases that are being implemented in ways that actually make people safe across the nation. That's honestly just the truth. Can people, or and organizations use any given product for nefarious ends? Absolutely. Do we try to mitigate it? Very much so.

At the end of the day it sounds like the people making this argument don't really like how ICE is using the product. That's unfortunate, but it seems like the response is making a proximation error though. For those taking this view: Do you yell at farmers for planting, growing and packaging strawberries because you're upset about the obesity crisis and people's craving for strawberry flavored products? Do you run out into the fields and grab them by the shoulders saying "This is your fault!". I'd hazard not.

There is a larger epistemological argument to be had there, but needless to say I'm just not convinced that any sober person believes that qualitatively ascribing moral outrage to a single group of people is really that simple.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
115. alpine+BY[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:25:46
>>mindsl+4I
It's honestly besides the point. For even if I accept their sovereignty, they have exercised their sovereign will in the Electoral College to elect this administration. And they always have the power to impeach it through their representatives, the administration did not take that away, nor did they suspend the Congress, nor do they appear to be preparing to wrongfully influence the next elections. A state can not go and rebel against the Union because it disagrees with the current administration. Hell, the Union can literally change the Constitution against the will of a particular state if enough other states agree. You can consider states sovereign if you want, and I concede that it's an established tradition, but when the whole agreement on the separation of powers can be changed with a particular state voting against it - that's a mockery of sovereignty of that state.
replies(1): >>mindsl+Ss1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
116. ok_dad+BZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:28:52
>>alpine+pF
> what would you suggest they do to still enforce the law efficiently but without this forcefulness

How about not violating the 5th amendment by going door to door through neighborhoods randomly? I don't give a single FUCK if ICE can do their jobs today if they have to violate half the damn bill of rights to do it.

◧◩
117. 15155+B11[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:36:48
>>harith+Ib
Siemens, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Krupp all seem to be doing just fine today.
replies(1): >>cogman+Cp1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
118. _bohm+w31[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 19:44:42
>>alpine+kT
I'm sorry, but if you still have any expectation that this administration will engage in good faith in any democratic process, you either haven't been paying attention or are engaging in willful self-delusion. They do not believe in democracy. They care about free speech only insofar as they can use it to claim they are being victimized, but will gleefully take it away from their opponents. They laugh in your face while they pardon the J6 insurrectionists. The presidential election is not and ought not be a referendum on whether or not we all get to have our rights trampled by gun-toting masked goons. At a certain point you have to stand up for what's right--that is, a reclamation of democracy.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
119. chinat+ca1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 20:14:16
>>buelle+gS
Why do you believe in borders?
replies(1): >>buelle+Jd1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
120. NonHyl+Ac1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 20:22:31
>>Amezar+6y
The term to consider here is >extrajudical killing< As in: Someone wotking for the executive kills another citizen, without 1) a need to do so for selfdefense 2) any justification from the judicary for it, and that without being charged for murder/aggrevated manslaugther. The argument: they are not doing what this law enforcement person wants do do of them (whether that obstruction is legal or not), so they are free to be killed is nothing but the total disregard for the law, any decency and the respect for human life and dignity. In short it is lynchmob mentality.
replies(1): >>Amezar+fk1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
121. buelle+Jd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 20:26:31
>>chinat+ca1
As I said: I fund the government; I don't think my government should be beholden to the entire population of the planet.

If there were a world government that I funded, then borders would be unnecessary, but that is not the world in which we live.

◧◩◪◨⬒
122. jasond+Pf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 20:34:38
>>mindsl+1p
I will never ever understand the construct of right / left / red / blue / lib / conservative without having to take a really dumb view of the world and its human inhabitants.
replies(1): >>mindsl+Et1
◧◩◪◨⬒
123. NonHyl+Qf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 20:34:41
>>NoMore+Ix
Is this metaphor or did you actually experience this?
replies(1): >>NoMore+oO3
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
124. Amezar+fk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 20:52:58
>>NonHyl+Ac1
The argument is that people recklessly driving their vehicles with a total disregard for the lives around them are a danger to the people in front of their car and anyone else on the street, which is recognized by the Supreme Court even when nobody is directly in front of the car. They don’t have to wait until you kill someone and get tried for it. They can legally just shoot you under current law. That’s what the courts say.

Self-defense is, however, an entirely plausible defense in this scenario, even if the agent could have acted differently to not be in the path of someone already behaving erratically, and even if people only with the benefit of slo-mo multi-angle replays don’t think so. That’s why nobody is being charged. This happens all the time, unfortunately. The minute you choose to endanger people around you in the presence of people with guns, you’ve rolled the dice on your life.

So do you have any actual examples of what you’re describing?

replies(2): >>NonHyl+Qw1 >>unethi+uD1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
125. cogman+Fm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 21:04:41
>>NickC2+2S
> Or, even earlier, they could have backed e-Verify as federal minimum standard for all employment as far back as the 1980s. But no, let's not go after the businesses hiring illegal laborers.

Strong borders are entirely about making easy to exploit cheap labor. That's entirely the reason why neither democrats nor republicans have addressed immigration. It's also entirely the reason why the only lever being pulled is deportation.

Businesses simply love being able to say to workers "Do what we say or we'll have you deported".

This is why undocumented workers pay taxes and can get jobs, even in the reddest of states. It's not some sort of "flaw" or "impossibility" that couldn't be fixed pretty quickly.

Rightly targeted law would penalize businesses hiring undocumented workers and would protect the workers regardless of documentation status. Doing that would immediately fix any perceived problems with immigration.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
126. footy+Xo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 21:16:30
>>embedd+Sj
Same. I was actually disappointed to find out my "excluding US" fund had 0.93% exposure to the US. I want it to nil.
◧◩◪
127. cogman+Cp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 21:19:20
>>15155+B11
All generalist businesses.

Palantir is solely a surveillance business. Like, maybe some day in the future they branch out into something that's not explicitly evil, but that seems unlikely.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
128. cogman+yr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 21:28:23
>>alpine+pF
I expect them to enforce the law without breaking the law. I want the job of any law enforcement agency to be hard. Not because I want lawlessness, but because the government has a rightful burden to surpass to prove that it's citizens are in the wrong. The government is supposed to serve the citizenry and not the other way around.

We have a freedom of speech and protest precisely to signal our discontent with our leaders. It is precisely for citizens to harass law enforcement that they view as unjust.

The entire reason we got those freedoms spelt out in the constitution in the first place was because of British occupation and the views that the British governments laws and enforcement were unjust. There is a direct parallel. The spirit of the 3rd amendment is that we should be able to kick out law enforcement that we hate. That we don't have to tolerate their presence.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
129. mindsl+Ss1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 21:36:41
>>alpine+BY
Sorry, this is a whole ball of post-hoc motivated reasoning.

> For even if I accept their sovereignty, they have exercised their sovereign will in the Electoral College to elect this administration

Simply repeating the word "sovereign" doesn't mean you've applied and fully accounted for the definition.

> A state can not go and rebel against the Union

I'm not talking about rebellion here, but the provision of law and order in spite of the federal government's policies of repeated lawbreaking.

> when the whole agreement on the separation of powers can be changed with a particular state voting against it - that's a mockery of sovereignty of that state.

This subject is not like computer programming where finding some lever you can pull to affect an axiomatic-deductive result invalidates the independent meaning of the original thing. If two-thirds of the states actually wanted to scrap the current Constitution and turn the federal government into an autocracy with two impotent patronage-review councils, then you would have a point. As it stands, you do not - the entire point of these necessary supermajorities is to put the brakes and pull us towards a foundation of individual liberty and limited government when things are close to evenly divided.

As I said, you really need to read up on the founding of this country. It's got all of these dynamics and more - including the "liberal media".

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
130. mindsl+Et1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 21:40:47
>>jasond+Pf1
The problem is that left/right are highly appealing because they claim to have the world figured out. The strongest manifestation being the authoritarians (of either ilk) that think they just need to implement their chosen top-down policies and every problem will end up being solved by construction.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦
131. NonHyl+Qw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 21:57:20
>>Amezar+fk1
What? You know someone in thisbthread made the argument, that it is not smart to shoot at someone driving at you because it won't stop the car. The truth of that can be seen in the recording of the video where renne nicole is being shot by that ICE person. The car is driving right on till it crashes into a mast or post or whatever these things are called. At this point her brain must be blown all over the interior of the car, since he had that gun on her head before the car started. You know. The guy was standing to the side of the car, and that woman must have been scarred for her life. I mean when you're so close, you must feel what is going on. And I think it is clear where the car will be going by the point that man decided to pull the trigger. Watch the video closely again. Imaging standing there with the gun. You would feel the rotation of her boy propagating through the pistol that is elongating your hand. You feel how the car is movjng away from you, even so you want it to stop and want the dooe to open up. You must see the thoughts and emotions of that woman running over her face as she decides to disobey and flee. What I see is someone who wants someone else to obey and to control them and is so entitled to the idea that the woman in the car should do, that when she doesn't do as he wants, the inhibition that a person who is representing the state doesn't work anymore and the impulse to take control and to take power is taking over. And he pulls the trigger. I mean that is what I think I see when I watch the video. You described your perception. (That isn't even to contadicting. You argue that starting the car and (potentially) fleeing, is legitimage reason to kill someone. To me that is insane but so is everybody carrying weapons, so there is that. Especially non police having these privileges that are normally reserved for highly trained and sworn in police (that have in my understanding absolutely have to weigh the risk to their life against the certainty to end that of someone they are there to protect, even if that person acts against there will. Where I live it is assumed that the impulse to flee is and to preserve yourself is extremely strong in every individual so, that attemptimg to do so does not constitute a crime/felony or whatever) Anyways: to get from disagreements in perspective and assumptions about what is right and wrong to something that can be the foundation of a civil society (as opposed to the "lawless wild west" as the sayinf goes) there is written law and independent judical processes in which these assumptions and perspectives are weight againsg each other. So that is what should be happening. People not having to undergo this scrutiny after such an act hat ended someone elses life means and being protected from that is so inlawfull I miss the right terms to qualify it. Something about lynching, mobs, lawlessness and disregard for humaan life and dignity all sanctioned by the highest political authority of your country.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦
132. unethi+uD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 22:31:26
>>Amezar+fk1
>The argument is that people recklessly driving their vehicles with a total disregard for the lives around them are a danger to the people in front of their car and anyone else on the street

And my argument is that no matter what SCOTUS law one cites, or hand-waving about self-defense that is said, that shooting her in the head from the side of the car was not only tactically unnecessary, but objectively made the situation worse in a way that a competent person should immediately recognize.

One does not need slow-mo to see she wasn't trying to kill anyone.

>The minute you choose to endanger people around you in the presence of people with guns, you’ve rolled the dice on your life.

This is shorthand for "comply or die". Welcome to the free world. I wonder if Europe and Australia and New Zealand and the rest of the world know what they're missing by not having LEO as qualified as ICE running their streets.

replies(2): >>Amezar+Fj6 >>Amezar+jC7
◧◩◪
133. well_a+4J1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-15 23:03:48
>>no-dr-+ma
>I don't think I have "blood on my hands" and rather instead think that people who use that tactic are resorting to strange emotional manipulation in place of a salient argument.

Yes, yes, the little hands at the gestapo that were just filling up forms for deportation do not have blood in their hands, we know. Tried and failed defense, many times.

◧◩◪◨
134. greyco+qS1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 00:01:32
>>Amezar+op
IBM made custom software and hardware to process Jews that legally needed to be in camps. I'm sure that was equally not a 'bad thing' or 'immoral'.
◧◩◪
135. rootus+vS1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 00:01:56
>>fifilu+9t
A fair number, I assure you, I know plenty.
◧◩◪◨⬒
136. rootus+6U1[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 00:14:04
>>basket+6x
I am thinking that whether I want a technically competent federal government depends entirely on who I think will be running it in the future. Right now the technical incompetence, such that it exists, works to our advantage.
◧◩◪
137. luxury+452[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 01:49:21
>>plorg+Wj
the government uses force for everything it does, it doesn’t need to resort to violence if you comply, (and yes it feels gross to type that) I hate to appear to defend something I hate but it’s because I understand the nature of it not because I approve of it: the point still remains that the people who facilitated the illegal entry knew without a doubt that this was going to happen afterwards, however far you want to extrapolate that onto their motives I don’t intend to speculate on here
replies(1): >>plorg+XB2
◧◩◪
138. johnny+Zb2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 02:56:08
>>fifilu+9t
Wouldn't be surprised if proportionately more software devs supported this. Tech is still a fast track to riches so they would fall for the narrative more than the average worker.
◧◩◪
139. johnny+bc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 02:57:29
>>Guinan+f8
In this job market, nothing is guaranteed. I'm struggling and I talked to devs with double my experience who had networks freeze up. Strange times.
◧◩◪
140. johnny+Tc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 03:05:27
>>no-dr-+ma
>No one should be ashamed to admit the truth of a matter.

Yet supports a regime that is censoring colleges, getting workers fired over their political views, pressuring and shutting down press, and more.

The point clearly only matters for truths they like.

>Palantir is objectively a profitable job

And ICE offering 50k signing bonuses. How much is your soul worth?

>I don't think I have "blood on my hands" and rather instead think that people who use that tactic are resorting to strange emotional manipulation in place of a salient argument.

Dismissing ethics as a salient argument is exactly why pathos is effective. If you were truly without shame you wouldn't be affected by the argument. Deflecting shows shame. I've meet a few sociopaths and this isn't how they respond.

>Most importantly, this is the exact type of behavior that is furthering political polarization and discouraging actual discourse.

Citizens are being killed on the street as we speak by their government. This is not a time to say "but why can't we just get along". There is literal blood on their hands. Maybe yours, I don't know.

And I'm beyond tired of this because this was warned from day one. But it was dismissed by overly reactionary and dramatic (I can pull up many of the flagged threads here). It's tiring because this wasn't some freak accident we correct, but a year of escalation that was designed by the administration.

If you're fine with that to self preserve your lifestyle, then I hope you are a sociopath. Otherwise, that does indeed eat at your soul, deservedly.

replies(1): >>no-dr-+bUq
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
141. johnny+zd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 03:13:59
>>Amezar+6y
>This is emotional, moralizing rhetoric that doesn’t persuade anyone.

If the constitution is now just "emotional rhetoric", then we are lost. No point showing you the article breaking down every bit of conduct in this situation if you dont care aboht law.

This will be a civil war with the only winner being China. Good luck.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
142. johnny+Kd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 03:16:08
>>standa+ZJ
That person isjustifying using deadly force on someone who was driving away, by the command of said shooter. This is the exact kind of person who is the reason this regime isn't unilaterally overturned.
◧◩◪◨
143. plorg+XB2[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 07:47:50
>>luxury+452
Everything you write here assumes that the world is far more rigid and full of inevitability than can be justified.
replies(1): >>luxury+4o3
◧◩◪◨⬒
144. luxury+4o3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 15:05:10
>>plorg+XB2
it only assumes that the government is aware of their own laws and has half a brain to realize what that means, what I wrote is being proved true right now
replies(1): >>plorg+pZ7
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
145. NoMore+oO3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 16:59:45
>>NonHyl+Qf1
We are all experiencing this, just at a larger scale. To call it a metaphor is to deny the reality, nothing about this is metaphorical.

It hurts all of us, but those on the left are willing to endure the torment if it they think it hurts their opponents more. They're willing to endure it if they think that tihs will swing voting numbers in their favor in the coming decades. The right to live within the United States, as an actual inalienable right and not just some temporary privilege is called citizenship, and those without it have no such right.

When those of you vote me down so you can pretend that everyone disagrees with me, you're setting yourself up for failure in the future. You will believe your own echo chamber and be sure that the Democrats will inevitably win, once and for all, because how can they not when they never hear anyone disagreeing with them? The numbers aren't on your side at all.

◧◩
146. aagha+HV3[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-16 17:33:19
>>pixl97+V2
You forgot another point--or it could be related to #3: off-shoring and H1B. Many people are just working the job and working on a small piece of software where they don't know or care about the ramification of project. They're getting paid and even if they know what's happening, they're not incentivized to care about what happens in America.
147. rhubar+8W5[view] [source] 2026-01-17 10:20:57
>>chinat+(OP)
You can apply similar arguments to many companies including Facebook. The programmer community as a whole is not ethical.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧
148. Amezar+Fj6[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-17 14:28:17
>>unethi+uD1
> One does not need slow-mo to see she wasn't trying to kill anyone.

She accelerated her car before turning the wheels knowing people were in the path of her car. (Even if you argue that the wheels spinning before the wheels turn doesn't count, cars do not turn rotate on their central axis, so accelerating while turning still endangers people in front of the car.) Nobody can read her mind but the possible consequences of that action are obvious. Legally that constitutes intent, regardless of what we might want to project on her state of mind.

Further, if you do want to talk about state of mind, you cannot argue that any person behaving rationally would choose to commit a felony and flee from LEO in a vehicle in the first place. This is an extremely high-risk move for zero benefit and the video confirms it didn't even take place out of panic, which was my original thought. On the ground in that situation there can be no analysis of "what is she thinking" because she abandoned the reasonable course that anyone there would have expected her to take.

> that shooting her in the head

No confirmed gunshot wound is in her head. Where did you hear this? It appears the ICE officer fired center of mass, as two confirmed gunshot wounds are in her chest and one in her arm.

I realize that arguing these technical issues will not change your mind, because for you the emotion of "people dying is bad" trumps all the reasons it happened. But I hope it will get you to consider what other people are thinking.

> tactically unnecessary, but objectively made the situation worse

That isn't clear at all because you cannot know what the counterfactual is. There were armed people who could have shot James Fields before he accelerated into a crowd. If they had, Heather Heyer would be alive today. If they had shot him, then people would be making the same argument you're making. Hitting the gas while your car is surrounded by people is no different than firing a gun randomly. In the very best case, your are operating a deadly weapon with a total disregard for human life. In some situations (self-defense), that may be justified. But it is not innocent.

The way to stop this from happening is to stop encouraging people to commit crimes by interfering with law enforcement. There are other effective ways to protest. Another good start would be winning elections. Encouraging people to get into violent encounters with law enforcement is risking peoples' lives for nothing. Once you choose violence you don't know where it's going to go.

replies(1): >>unethi+Vc8
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧
149. Amezar+jC7[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-17 23:46:05
>>unethi+uD1
Too late to edit, but:

> I wonder if Europe and Australia and New Zealand and the rest of the world know what they're missing by not having LEO as qualified as ICE running their streets.

"Europe" is of course not a place, but maybe you'd be surprised to know this does happen in "Europe" and other countries. In fact France specifically legalized police shooting vehicles fleeing traffic stops even if the police themselves are not in danger, and about a dozen people are killed that way every year.

Heck, here's a video of a shooting in Canada where the police fired at someone just trying to get away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lbqjBauouE

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
150. plorg+pZ7[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-18 04:24:30
>>luxury+4o3
* It assumes that the government's priorities are malleable enough that it will eventually decide to prioritize these laws, but not malleable enough that they could change them. This is self-contradictory.

* It assumes that a person's immigration status is not malleable and cannot be normalized. This is strictly false.

* It assumes that immigration laws are static. Again, strictly false.

* It implies that all force is equal in violence, which is something I usually only hear from high schoolers who have just encountered libertarianism and love it

* It suggests that there is no moral agency in acting on behalf of the government, only in acting against the backdrop reality of this monolithic slab of granite.

* It suggests even that the violence currently taking place is for the purpose of enforcing laws. This isn't true for the U.S. citizens by birth or naturalization who are being unlawfully detained, it isn't true for the thousands of non-citizens with legal status who are being detained and moved across state lines. It isn't true for the non-citizens who are being arrested literally while attending the process of maintaining their legal status. It isn't even true for those without legal status who are having their doors kicked in without warrants, and it isn't true for those without legal status who are being detained and tortured. None of this is actually according to the law, it's just what they can get away with and make a spectacle of violence.

I'm not even exactly clear who the nebulous group of people is that you want to blame for getting people caught up in the government's violence. I guess if you're mad at coyotes, sure, be my guest? If you're mad at anyone involved in the process of asylum you're mad at people following the law. If you're mad at people helping their neighbors you've lost the plot. If you're mad at state or city governments not enforcing federal laws for then either you don't like federalism or you don't understand it, but at best your assumption is historically contentious.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨
151. unethi+Vc8[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-18 07:33:00
>>Amezar+Fj6
I highly disagree with your analysis. And yes, some of my perspective is based on the ideology that the ICE agents are largely incompetent, racist, hateful human beings led by people of the same quality.

You are correct, she didn't get shot in the head, she was shot in the chest and lived for 20 minutes while she was denied medical attention.

Any resistance to tyranny will involve disobedience of varying levels of severity. This administration is fascist in the true meaning of the word. A woman blocked the street, got killed then called a f*cking b*tch by the cop after he shot her, and a domestic terrorist before her body was cold by the DHS secretary and president and vice president.

You say she shouldn't have been there. I say ICE shouldn't have been there, shouldn't have issued conflicting orders, shouldn't have gotten in front of her car, and should have kept going around her like they had been. I say her demeanor before she left meant she clearly was not trying to harm anyone. Period.

Authority is not ipso facto moral.

replies(1): >>Amezar+jA8
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨◲
152. Amezar+jA8[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-18 11:52:55
>>unethi+Vc8
> shouldn't have issued conflicting orders

There were no conflicting orders, unless you mean ICE telling her to get out of the car while Good's partner yells "drive, baby drive!"

> shouldn't have gotten in front of her car,

It certainly would have been smarter for the ICE agent on a personal welfare level, but the idea that the cops have to leave you an escape route is silly. It's policy mostly for police safety; from everyone elses' standpoint, you don't get to say "the cops have stopped me and I don't have a way out so I have no choice but to run them over."

> Any resistance to tyranny will involve disobedience of varying levels of severity. This administration is fascist in the true meaning of the word.

Right, well, I think it's pretty clear that anyone who is out protesting and resisting the incompetent, hateful, and violent thugs of a fascist regime should absolutely, 100% expect to be killed. I mean, that's what fascist thugs do. Instead, Good and her partner appear to have been caught totally off guard, with her partner demanding to know why they had real bullets. There's a disconnect somewhere.

Anyway, I guess one of my overarching points is that this is not actually unusual police behavior, even by international standards. It's getting so much attention because of its political salience. I don't know (and doubt) there is any coordination going on, but in these situations I think people should always ask themselves why: a) this event, like many others, is incorrectly being treated as unprecedented or beyond the norm and b) why it is so emotionally charged when similar past events were not, c) whether the emotionality is productive at all personally and d) whether the outrage is likely to lead to desirable political consequences. For a closely related example in the lattermost question, I am no lover of cops, but it appears the actual political results of the BLM protests were highly mixed, at best, and in some cases made things worse. So, for example, returning to a situation where we have immigration laws and minimal enforcement is clearly not a desirable end for anyone except maybe some classes of businessmen.

replies(1): >>unethi+3Vd
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨◲◳
153. unethi+3Vd[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-20 03:21:35
>>Amezar+jA8
>There were no conflicting orders

Factually incorrect. Now then,

It got a lot of attention because it is death, because it was avoidable, because it was the responsibility of ICE to make it avoidable, and because popular tension breaks at unpredictable moments. Hers happened to be on video from a thousand different angles.

Your rhetoric waffles between support of the actions of the authorities, and you seem to drift between satire and reality. "I'm no lover of cops" while you victim blame a woman for getting killed.

>I think it's pretty clear that anyone who is out protesting and resisting the incompetent, hateful, and violent thugs of a fascist regime should absolutely, 100% expect to be killed

Given the amount of energy you are expending to defending the actions of officers in this instance, I assume you are a supporter of this administration and their actions.

replies(1): >>Amezar+tYg
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨◲◳⚿
154. Amezar+tYg[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-20 23:49:06
>>unethi+3Vd
> Factually incorrect

Feel free to post a video showing the conflicting orders. As best I can determine, this was just early (and very typical) misinformation. I could be wrong!

> responsibility of ICE to make it avoidable

I disagree. I don't see that LEOs have some sort of moral responsibility to make sure they aren't standing where they can be run over. People have a moral responsibility to not drive recklessly.

> "I'm no lover of cops" while you victim blame a woman for getting killed.

It is certainly an unfortunate situation, but if you can set aside your moral outrage, looking at the chain of cause-and-effect, she definitely took actions that had a very high probability of leading to being shot. Do you disagree? I don't see how looking at this shooting from a moral framing is sensible or likely to be productive in any way regardless of which side "wins" and is able to execute policy based on it.

> It got a lot of attention because it is death, because it was avoidable, because it was the responsibility of ICE to make it avoidable, and because popular tension breaks at unpredictable moments

See, I don't think it's actually unpredictable at all. There are very good reasons there aren't mass riots in Canada over police not in any particular danger shooting up someone driving a stolen truck, and there are for Americans ICE shooting a woman who, at best, disobeyed clear instructions and operated her vehicle with a reckless disregard for human life.

◧◩◪
155. librar+P6q[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-23 16:29:35
>>no-dr-+ma
it's funny how now days you can spot a tool by how they want to make sure the nuance of the fascist prick argument is being heard. I hear it. It sucks.
◧◩◪◨
156. no-dr-+bUq[view] [source] [discussion] 2026-01-23 20:30:44
>>johnny+Tc2
Just saw this. Hope you feel better. It seems you were really going through it when you wrote this.
[go to top]