zlacker

> Do runways have some sort of barrier between them and the next "important" thing. It seems like that would be prudent both for cases like this

Ha, Jeju Air Flight 2216 smashed into a barrier on the second landing attempt in Muan last year [0], and people commented "How could there be a barrier at the end of the runway, so obviously stupid, irresponsible", etc.

Now a plane does not smash into a barrier at the end of the runway and people suggest putting barriers at the end of the runway.

Don't mean to attack parent post, but may I suggest that

a) hordes of experts have thought long and hard about these issues, and it is unlikely that you can encounter this for the first time as a lay person and come up with a solution that has eluded the best engineers for decades ("why don't they attach a parachute to the plane?"), and

b) we are very close to an optimum in commercial aviation, and there are few if any unambiguous ("Pareto") improvements, but rather just tradeoffs. For example: You leave cockpit doors open, terrorists come in and commandeer the plane to turn it into a weapon. You lock the cockpit doors closed, and suicidal pilots lock out the rest of the crew and commandeer the plane to turn it into a weapon of mass-murder-suicide.

There are no easy answers.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_Air_Flight_2216

ETA: In 2007 an A320 overran a runway in Brazil and crashed into a gas station, killing 187 pax & crew + 12 on the ground. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAM_Airlines_Flight_3054

>>FabHK+(OP)
One improvement is a bed of concrete at the end of the runway that will catch the wheels and slow an airplane down to a stop. Pretty much everyone agrees it’s a good idea but it’s not always possible due to space needs or cost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_materials_arrestor_...

>>FabHK+(OP)
Or a ramp with "one-way teeth" that stops it with gravity and stops it from sliding back down with teeth.

>>fuzzyt+tb
The ramp will need to be very long and very high in order to absorb the momentum of a fully loaded widebody jet. Not something that you'd want near a runway where planes can land in either direction.

>>linehe+d5
If it costs too much it is also a bad idea. Why? Because that money can be spent on other safety.

>>fuzzyt+tb
The plane is fast and heavy.

>>FabHK+(OP)
The solution is to "free" the perimeter of takeoff/landing. Bonus: People don't have to chose to work/live in these noisy areas. I understand some areas have challenges to come up with space but the US has tons of space and maybe the sea should be used to host these airports.

>>hshdhd+Jp
The Wikipedia article says exactly the opposite, citing hard numers.

>>hshdhd+Jp
If you're designing a new airport, sure, you can have runways with ample safety margins and generous overrun areas at the end of the runways. If you want to make an existing airport safer, and you can't buy up and demolish buildings around it, using EMAS is actually a cost-effective safety improvement.

>>linehe+d5
Also put the fire department right next to it. Or some kind of automated extinguisher.

>>fuzzyt+tb
Sounds like a much more substantial runaway truck ramp

>>ameliu+FR
There was a young girl who survived the crash of Asiana flight 214, but was run over by a firetruck because she was covered in extinguisher foam.

>>fullst+yb1
=> Don't drive through the foam.

>>csomar+PA
This is how almost all airports built in the last 50 years have worked. They were built way outside the cities. The cities grew to the airports.

More so, because of strong property rights it's very difficult to stop any development near the airports at all. The airport would have to buy up hundreds of square miles of land to prevent it at a staggering cost.

Lastly, one of the buildings that was hit was the UPS warehouse that stored goods to load on the plane. You want that as close as possible to the airport. Though right at the end of the runway is not the greatest place.

>>ameliu+3f1
Yes, we can have the automated extinguishers leave a clear path. :-)

>>fullst+Wq1
Use drones if necessary.

>>FabHK+(OP)
After 9/11, unlock the pilot doors. The passengers will revolt against any attempted aircraft hijackings.

We need members of the public ready to help in a situation where a pilot goes crazy, and they can’t help with a locked door making it impossible for them to enter.

>>fullst+yb1
> Later investigations concluded that Ye was already dead from severe injuries caused by being ejected from the aircraft.

from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

>>ameliu+By1
Wow, TIL. Thanks for pointing that out!

>>Der_Ei+1t1
Do we need that? MH370 may have benefitted, but it’s hardly a common problem.

>>ameliu+By1
biased investigations

>>hshdhd+Qp
And fragile and will go splat if you try and do anything approaching a runaway truck ramp to it.

>>fuzzyt+tb
linehedonist's comment is an idea that is shown to work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_materials_arrestor_...

>>Der_Ei+1t1
> After 9/11, unlock the pilot doors. The passengers will revolt against any attempted aircraft hijackings.

Regulations for locked cockpit doors were only introduced after 9/11, IIRC.

>>lostlo+UD1
The belief is that MH370 was depressurized which would have killed the passengers. A better example is Germanwings 9525 where the locked door allowed the first officer to crash the plane.