The problem is that most normal people (HN is not normal - mostly for the better) don't even understand what sideloading is - let alone actually care.
How can we fix this?
(aside from making people care - apathy enables so many political problems in the current age, but it's such a huge problem that this definitely isn't going to be the impetus to fix it)
Like people still download software packages from the web on Windows, MacOS, and Linux… right? Maybe hard to grasp for the kids that grew up with tablets with no notion of a file system, idk
A duopoly just isn't competitive enough. Too bad the cost of entry is so high.
If anything, it's the playstore and appstore which are side channels.
Actually, they understand it just fine. The concept is very simple too.
Before this change you could install Android apps without registering your passport/driving license with Google.
After this change you will have to tell Google your real name and home address to install anything on your Android device. This is all. It can take a convoluted form of registering Google account or a more direct form of sending Google your identity documents to confirm "developer privileges". But you will no longer be able to use non-hacked Android devices to install anything without doing those steps.
P.S. I recall that some people still believe that they can create Google account without giving Google your personal details, phone etc. This is simply a self-delusion. If Google does not immediately demand you to cough up a phone numbers under pretense of "suspicious activity", that's because they already know who you are (you probably told them yourself by registering another account elsewhere).
No, "burner SIM cards" aren't real. This is just another form of self-delusion, — this time architected by US security agencies. You don't become anonymous by using those, you become watched.
turn people onto sideloaded apps. show them Revanced and NewPipe, show them system-wide ad blockers and bloatware removal and every other thing Google doesn't want plebs to use.
people don't care about "apk side-loading," they care about apps. hook them on forbidden apps, and they'll raise hell when they can't side-load them anymore.
I don't think that making "normal" people "care" about sideloading is the answer, because a) it's impossible and b) political change doesn't happen through "normal" people anyway, all political and regulatory change is driven via smaller and motivated groups of people.
The problem is fundamentally that there's a duopoly on mobile OSes that has tons of market power and if they want to dictate a change like "you can no longer install unapproved software," they can just do it.
The solution is to walk away from that duopoly, to suck it up and just stop using their products. We fortunately are able to do this (for now) on desktop and running Linux in 2025 is better than it's ever been, and more people are doing it.
To get Linux or some alternative on phones is a big task, and if you make the switch you're going to lose a lot. But most of what has no desktop equivalent is addictive social media garbage that you should get rid of anyway. The biggest thing I'm concerned about is the state of banking and OTP/2FA.
I think we need to fight for universal electronic access to the financial system as a right without a need for gatekeepers like Apple or Google. In some countries it's already the case that at many businesses you must use your phone to make payments, cash is gone, cards are dying, and you must therefore agree to Apple or Google's rules to use your phone. This is truly how freedom and democracy will die if we allow it. This is way bigger for "normal" people than technical concepts like sideloading. People on the left should inherently understand the importance to liberty of having the right as an individual to buy and sell without some megacorp's permission. For people on the right, well, remember the Bible's "Mark of the beast..."
Secondarily we need to fight for the enforcement of anti-trust laws, which half of HN doesn't seem to even know exist, or feels are in some way unfair, even though they are the cause of these problems. Government needs to reach in and rearrange markets that are dominated by one or two players, it needs to forcefully restructure those companies so that they lose their market power and can no longer force citizens to obey their will. We've done it before, such as ending company towns where you were forced to use the company's scrip at the company's shop to buy living essentials. It's worked, we need to do it again.
unlock. flash. spread the word. use the fork, Luke.
The problem is that I want to make calls, SMSes, use WhatsApp and Telegram, Maps and OSMAnd, NewPipe, VLC, Syncthing and a few others on the phone I carry with me.
And to make matters worse I don't want a huge, thick and heavy brick like every Linux phone I read about. I'm on a Samsung A40 now and it's not easy to find a replacement with similar size and weight.
Hard to believe at this point that these messengers used to use open standard protocols, and you could send messages from Google Talk to Facebook once.
The irony of that iconic Apple 1984 add .
SteamOS isn’t too far from a mobile OS.
It's not just the OS makers. They're also responding to the demand of companies and governments to control their users through them. They will not say "no".
The problem is - linux (outside on server land and maybe SteamOS) is everything but (regular) user friendly.
When people buy a new phone the expect a smooth experience without any major inconveniences and uniform UI. And apps. Lots of apps. Full of features and mature UI. Linux mostly have none of it.
microsoft wishes they could have the level of platform control that google/apple on mobiles have.
It's pure luck that the IBM-compatible PC was not locked down and restricted, because at the time IBM had not thought of it as being important. When it became clear that it was a lost profit opportunity, the cat was already out of the bag and so IBM had no choice.
Microsoft repeated the same "mistake". But apple learnt, and google also from apple.
While I understand your point, are you even going to notice after a couple of weeks of daily driving? Let’s not underestimate our ability to get used to things.
I would wish that mobile devices' specs and hardware drivers are all available, so that i am not dependent on the manufacturer supplying a compatible OS.
It's like napster and torrenting. People dont care about the tech behind it - they care about the outcome.
It's just that the majority of normies dont even know it is possible (and didnt think an alternative exists to sideload).
In the country I live in, which is a highly online and highly mobile first country, a sizeable minority of businesses no longer accept cash. A few no longer even accept cards.
At these businesses, there is only one way to pay, which is to pull out your phone, and initiate a transaction through your mobile banking app, you scan a QR from the vendor and approve the transfer.
Mobile banking is so ubiquitous that often these businesses don't even have signage outlining their payment policies, or it's tiny and hard to find.
Some banks do not have an online banking website, the only way to access your money and make a payment is to use the Android or iOS app on an unrooted device, or physically go to a branch or ATM.
You go somewhere, you buy, at the end of your meal or whatever they tell you phone only, no card, no cash.
It's prevalent enough that being outside of your home without an unrooted Google or Apple operating system physically on your person is a significant impediment to buying basic things, like a meal.
Apple and Google will, through a variety of technical changes, seek to make this the case in all of the world, and in some countries they'll succeed. So the important question now is: how will it go down in the next 10 years in your country? How far under their control is your society going to fall?
Banking, money and payments. Limiting those in the name of security is how they will get you on everything else.
They will take away cash and cards and there will only be payment apps, on approved secure OSes which you can't "tamper" with (aka install "unauthorized" software like VLC or a Youtube alternative on), or else the payments apps stop working.
They will take away SMS OTP and there will only be TOTP, because it's more secure. Then they will replace the OTP with a facial scan, because it's more secure, people were being social engineered into giving someone those numbers over the phone, etc.
This is all in process. They don't even hide it, they just say it's for security. It is already happening in countries that are highly online and highly phone-centric.
That doesn't solve anything, though. If Google revoked your Google account and refused to open a new one, you'd be SOL - you'd either have to buy an iPhone, or move banks until you find one that gives you a physical TOTP (since many just have apps already, but those apps don't run unless downloaded from the Google or Apple stores).
Note that this is likely illegal, even though I'm sure it's very common in certain places, and arguing about legal tender laws is not how you want to spend every meal of course.
But, in principle, in most countries at least, businesses and private citizens are obligated to accept the country's currency to discharge debts. They're free to have an upfront no cash policy, and refuse to do business with you if you try to pay with cash, for example making you leave all your groceries at the checkout counter. But if they claim that you have a debt to them, such as a meal you've already eaten and now must pay for, they must accept any form of the country's currency, such as cash, as a means of you paying that debt off.
Off the top of my head there's a Debian based one, a Fedora based one, webOS, PostmarketOS, probably others. Wouldn't be that difficult but yeah, the cost of entry is still probably tens of millions.
Weird apps that block your phone and show ads constantly (yes this exists)
Typosquatting apps
Apps that hold your phone for ransom if you don't pay a certain debt (yes this exists) https://www.welivesecurity.com/en/eset-research/beware-preda...
Nowadays Microsoft could easily do it, they aren't fully into it, because they managed to botch themselves the whole WinRT/UWP and Windows 10X transition, had they made it in a way that most Windows developers would join the party, and the outcome would look much different.
Windows 11 sandboxing already requires MSIX and store distribution to be fully enabled, they only have to slowly keep turning the knobs on Windows 12 in whatever form it shows up, eventually.
Valve will learn the OS/2 lesson, by not fostering a proper native Linux ecosystem.
Easy: tell them they won't be able to use cracked spotify anymore
The idea that you can hold the beggar bowl out and company mommy will have pity is not realistic. Creating your own ecosystem and cross-fertilising with other liked minded people that is tailored to your approach is far more feasible now than we realise.
Without attestation, banking apps stop working and without a banking app, you are locked out of modern life in many ways.
This latest Google move makes it impossible to run an attested Android without the sideloading limitation. That means that you'll have to choose between GrapheneOS and using your banking app.
I'm sad to say that I've already had to make that choice :-(. I feel that I was coerced into it.
Its soon time for me to get a new phone, but buying a Google pixel to flash GrapheneOS seems like paying the bully.
Every time you have to clarify, it’s another opportunity to lose the asker. It’s not a good strategy to use a term we have to keep defining or that people may misunderstand. Stallman and the FSF continue to make that mistake and we have had decades to understand that’s a bad approach.
Call it something else, like a “direct install” or something better. You can still have a deeper meaning to it (“direct because it bypasses the App Store middleman”) but make it something people can understand fast. You can’t fight marketing with ideology alone, you have to beat them at their own game.
I don't believe that entirely. For example, how much safer is a banking app protected by play protect, running on an OEM ROM with tonnes of OEM/Google/Meta malware, compared to the same running on Graphene, Lineage or Calyx? I think it's the other way around. Google or their associates convince either the banking firms, or more likely the security audit companies that the play protect (safetynet or whichever latest flavor) is an absolute necessity for security on android. In the latter case, those security firms will give the developers a checklist to follow, which will include an item on enabling that API. It's unlikely that so many banks will choose them on their own accord like that, even if a bunch of them insist on Google providing it. I have even seen banks disabling the API in their apps through updates. And they also don't have any problems with their web applications that don't have anything similar to remote attestation. Besides if you look closely, it's in Google's interest, not the bank's interest to enable these APIs. Such apps will only run on the OEM ROMs, making the open source and custom ROMs somewhat untenable.
I don’t believe that at all. Mozilla has been on a string of awful decisions for a long while. They start dumb projects no one asked for or wants all the time and abandon everything swiftly, even the good ones. Look at Rust and Servo.
Firefox OS barely lasted two years between release and discontinuation. It never even stood a chance for most people to even have heard of it or tried it, let alone be successful.
Its a very slippery slope that is very close to being implemented. In a way, we can hope that the current political climate somehow decimates the American corporations that control the systems, but it looks more like IBM during WW2 supplying counting machines to the Americans and to the Germans and everyone else.
The phone platform is officially lost at this point, there is too much political pressure to control it. We are going to increasingly need to rely on sneaker nets, small mesh networks, and home made "illegal" communication devices. The internet will continue to exist, but it is going to fracture more and more with the political wars that are happening at the moment.
The curious thing about the word "slave" is that it originates from "slavs" i.e. people living in slavic countries, who were forced to slavery, yet we aren't freaking about that (I'm a slav by myself), it's just a word.
Calling it "sideloading" instead of "installing" software successfully cements the notion that it is somehow not a completely normal thing to do. That's problem solved for the Googles and Apples of the world.
See the history of "jaywalking".
Another approach I wonder about is single task specific hardware, like a GPS unit or media player, what tasks have developed over the past ~18 years within the mobile ecosystem and are mature and not rapidly evolving enough that they can be unbundled to their own devices, and desirable enough to stand alone that there's a market for it.
See the history of words such as "jaywalking" or "carbon footprint" and how their usage cements the respective ideas.
That battle will likely come down to the likes of Apple and Google fighting against one state government at a time. Many will fall.
It's one of those seemingly innocent UI and communications changes that causes most users to develop a wrong mental model that obscures what's actually happening.
F-droid isn't actually installing the app. Neither does Play Store or Galaxy Store. Nor does Steam install your games on PC. People think they do, because the store fronts take over informing about installation progress. This little UI change alone - taking over the installer's progress bar - makes people develop bad mental models.
Direct installation is a great term IMHO. That's what you do when you download an APK onto your phone's file system, and then use e.g. file manager app to find that APK file, and run the system's package installer over it.
All F-Droid or Play Store or other stores do is to automate the "find the right APK" and "invoke installation" parts.
There is no choice of words that will make it normal to install mobile apps from anywhere other than an app store. Whatever word we use will take on the meaning of doing something unusual.
"Sideloading" doesn't have an inherent or deeply ingrained negative connotation. I don't see a reason to try to change it.
We're at late stage capitalism, where enshittification occurs at alarming rate.
This change means that people who do not use Google Play or other sources, fully controlled by Google, will no longer be able to install applications on Android.
Consumers didn't pick up Windows Phone or HarmonyOS enough to matter either. Access to the two common app stores is crucial for user adoption even when the UI is good.
We could also imagine a mechanism to provide an update URL in the app metadata. The OS could query this URL periodically to check for updates.
So it's still a direct install, it's just that direct install support is limited on phones.
They have the right to use cash, even if the vendor chooses not to accept it.
I learned this by trying to pay a fine with coins, which are NOT legal tender like cash is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender
> Each jurisdiction determines what is legal tender, but essentially it is anything which, when offered ("tendered") in payment of a debt, extinguishes the debt. There is no obligation on the creditor to accept the tendered payment, but the act of tendering the payment in legal tender discharges the debt.
Let me just "sideload" an app onto my laptop...
Does that make sense at all? "Sideload" and not "install"?
For other countries... Well you get what you vote I guess.
I don't know if it's actually used much much on windows, but iirc xbox live is pretty popular.
Much of the ecosystem of Android apps that are only distributed outside the Play store will be affected by this, as many developers won't be able or willing to submit to this process or waive their privacy (especially young developers or those making apps that are legal but often targeted by litigious companies, e.g. emulators, YouTube clients/downloaders, BitTorrent clients, etc.)
I may prove to be wrong but I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out & genuinely think it could be good, holistically.
There's a number of possibilities:
1. This drives most people to Apple & Android dies. iOS is mostly a better product than Android, with the exception that Android is semi-open. This removes Android's only competitive advantage.
2. This drives most people to Apple which motivates Google to do a U-turn.
3. This drives people to Graphene in such large numbers that it gets financial support, & some banks are pressurised into dropping Play Protect requirements.
I honestly don't know which of these 3 is most or least likely but all move us away from the current stagnant position of Google being the best reasonable option of a set of very bad options. A complete Apple monopoly would obviously be bad in the short term but would at least leave an opening for fresh competitors.
But the % of the total market that do care is not an insignificant % of the total Android userbase. There's also a spectrum of concern - I'm a long time Android user turned iOS user: I care deeply about sideloading but ultimately the balance of pros & cons shifted for me, & I suspect will begin to for others.
Or when you do, you can then link it to specific group of people based on the identifiers you received from the attestation.
Then bank apps themselves started giving me warnings that my device was insecure (the irony) and I got increasingly frequent KYC questionnaires coming my way. One of the banks also disabled access to some money transfer services, which I suspect is because of some flag on my account in their system.
I had to ditch GrapheneOS at that point. There are simply no banks that I can switch to.
"After this change you will have to tell Google your real name and home address to install anything on your Android device."
As far as I can tell (and nobody who has replied has contradicted me so far), that isn't true. I won't have to tell Google my real name and home address to sideload [the now smaller selection of] apps.
So you didn't read about Pinephone? Also, fighting against something requires efforts, you know.
It's the way our brains work - the intention doesn't necessarily matter. Next time you're pissed off, try expressing out loud how "darn peeved" you are and watch how much words change how we think and feel
The most critical apps for me on mobile are banking, payments, transportation, and messaging. Banking I can’t do much about. Payments I can still handle with physical cards. Messaging is getting better thanks to people adapting proprietary services to Matrix, so with some effort you can use one open source client to reach them all.
Transportation is the area I’ve been working on. I’ve been getting MapLibre (an open source map rendering library) running on Compose Multiplatform, including Compose Desktop (so map apps built in Jetpack Compose could extend to Linux based phones like Librem) and also on Huawei’s HarmonyOS. If I can cover my everyday needs with open tools, then walking away from the Google/Apple duopoly stops being a thought experiment and starts being a real option for me.