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1. cmcale+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-08-13 14:27:31
Then what happens if you don't have ID on you (which, for now, is entirely legal in the UK)? What if you're hours from home? Do you then need to completely cancel your day to spend it with the cops instead satisfy some shit algorithm that misidentified you as some known threat? What if you refuse to cooperate because you have better things to do than waste your time with the police? I'm sure that'll go well for you.

What if your child falls victim to a false identification, and then given that children are far less likely to have some form of ID on them than adults, they're stuck for much longer?

Do you trust the British police to take good care of your child? Or will they strip-search her and threaten her with arrest like they did with the then-15-year-old Child Q because they decided that she "smelled of weed"?

Do you really want more unnecessary interactions with the police for yourself or those you care about when your "suspicious behaviour" was having an algorithm judge that your face looked like someone else's?

replies(3): >>mytail+t2 >>Lio+H8 >>grepno+DG
2. mytail+t2[view] [source] 2025-08-13 14:39:12
>>cmcale+(OP)
What happens when a police constable thinks they recognise you from evidence they have in an investigation or a wanted person notice?

This is nothing new. It is all about what is reasonable in the circumstances.

replies(2): >>cmcale+D7 >>southe+Qc
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3. cmcale+D7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-13 15:01:20
>>mytail+t2
A constable is not going to be scanning the faces everyone going to Wembley in one night. Even 100 constables looking at faces entering faces going to Wembley is not going to scan everyone and recognise someone they know from a wanted poster (of maybe a couple hundred faces in their head).

The Met have already lied about the scale of false positives[0] by nearly 1000x, and it's not obvious how much better it will get. With the current tech, this rate will get worse as more faces are being looked for. If it's only looking for (I'm guessing) a thousand high-risk targets now and the rate is 1/40, as more and more faces get searched for this problem gets exponentially worse as the risk of feature collisions rise.

Of course, it'll also disproportionately affect ethnic groups who are more represented in this database too, making life for honest members of those groups more difficult than it already is.

The scale is what makes it different. The lack of accountability for the tech and the false confidence it gives police is what makes it different.

[0]: Met's claim was 1/33,000 false positives, actual 1/40 according to this article from last year https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-69055945

replies(1): >>mytail+de
4. Lio+H8[view] [source] 2025-08-13 15:06:47
>>cmcale+(OP)
It's also worth noting that if you are arrested for a serious offence your DNA and biometrics will taken and held for ever even if you are release without charge and the real perpetrator latter convicted.

In the eyes of the law you will be innocent but you'll still be treated like a criminal.

The same could accidentally happen for a minor offence too.

West Yorkshire, West Mids, The Met and Great Manchester Police have all made admin "mistakes"[1] where they failed to delete DNA evidence since the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 came into force.

No one has been sanctioned or fined for those mistakes.

You might not think being on that list matters but during the good ol' days of the 1980s innocent trades union activists were placed on a secret list by the Met's Special Branch and that list passed potential empoyers to bar them from getting jobs.

Again, no one punished for that and if it's happend once it can happen again.

See the Scott Inquiry for details.

1. These scare quotes are because I don't beleive this always happens through incompetence. I'm not saying it's always the case but some of the time the police are just ignoring the rules because the rules have no teeth.

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5. southe+Qc[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-13 15:25:09
>>mytail+t2
Again worth mentioning something I've mentioned in other comments, and it's enormously obvious: There's a massive differene between unluckily being misindentified by some random copper who needs to get his memory or eyesight checked, and the percentage of false positives that's nearly guaranteed from a mass digital facial rec surviellance system working around the clock on categorizing millions of faces all over the country. The first is a bit of bad luck, the second will likely become pervasive, systemic and lead to assorted other shit consequences for many people being cross-checked and categorized in all kinds of insidiuous ways
replies(1): >>mytail+Le
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6. mytail+de[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-13 15:31:27
>>cmcale+D7
> [0]: Met's claim was 1/33,000 false positives, actual 1/40 according to this article from last year https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-69055945

The article does not claim this:

"The Metropolitan Police say that around one in every 33,000 people who walk by its cameras is misidentified.

But the error count is much higher once someone is actually flagged. One in 40 alerts so far this year has been a false positive"

These are 2 different metrics that measure 2 different things and so they are both correct at the same time. But I must say I am not clear what each exactly means.

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7. mytail+Le[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-13 15:33:31
>>southe+Qc
You raise a good point that if the system wrongly ID you once it means that you're probably liable to be flagged every time you walk past one of those vans...
replies(1): >>southe+Qu
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8. southe+Qu[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-13 16:49:59
>>mytail+Le
I think it's almost inevitable. The very nature of the bureaucratic procedures that grow up around these sorts of flag lists is that effort tends to accumulate at those points, right or wrong, and your being listed on them becomes almost self-reinforcing through bureaucratic inertia and over-caution, mixed with laziness about investigating if their own systems are wrong and repairing the problem.
9. grepno+DG[view] [source] 2025-08-13 17:49:23
>>cmcale+(OP)
>Then what happens if you don't have ID

On arrest, you're required to provide your name and address, not proof. For the absolute majority of UK adults, it takes exactly 2 minutes to verify that data against public records - passport, driving licence, council tax, voter registration.

Lying in that situation is a separate criminal offence all of its own.

>satisfy some shit algorithm that misidentified you as some known threat

Matches with a confidence rating of <0.64 are automatically deleted >0.7 is considered reliable enough to present to a human operator, and before any action is taken a serving police officer must verify the match, and upon arrest verify the match against the human.

>What if your child falls victim to a false identification

The age of criminal responsibility is 10, and absent any personal identification parental identification is the standard everywhere.

>15-year-old Child Q

The good old slippery slope fallacy. Both the officers who strip searched that child were fired for gross misconduct. North of 50,000 children are arrested each year and this happened once.

>Do you really want more unnecessary interactions with the police for yourself or those you care about when your "suspicious behaviour" was having an algorithm judge that your face looked like someone else's?

Thing is 12 months on, 1035 arrests, over 700 charges, and that hasn't happened because the point of testing the scheme thoroughly was to stop that from happening.

What proof do you have that it doesn't work.

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