zlacker

[parent] [thread] 33 comments
1. origin+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-07-07 09:55:12
At least most pirates just consume for personal use. Profiting from piracy is a whole other level beyond just pirating a book.
replies(4): >>pyman+j1 >>mnky98+35 >>KoolKa+t7 >>mrcwin+8z
2. pyman+j1[view] [source] 2025-07-07 10:09:26
>>origin+(OP)
Someone on Twitter said: "Oh well, P2P mp3 downloads, although illegal, made contributions to the music industry"

That's not what's happening here. People weren't downloading music illegally and reselling it on Claude.ai. And while P2P networks led to some great tech, there's no solid proof they actually improved the music industry.

replies(2): >>drcurs+38 >>Imusta+t9
3. mnky98+35[view] [source] 2025-07-07 10:50:24
>>origin+(OP)
I feel like profit was always a central motive of pirates. At least from the historical documents known as, "The Pirates of the Caribbean".
4. KoolKa+t7[view] [source] 2025-07-07 11:13:46
>>origin+(OP)
This isn't really profiting from piracy. They don't make money off the raw input data. It's no different to consuming for personal use.

They make money off the model weights, which is fair use (as confirmed by recent case law).

replies(1): >>j_w+Ua
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5. drcurs+38[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 11:17:42
>>pyman+j1
Let's not forget Spotify ;)

https://gizmodo.com/early-spotify-was-built-on-pirated-mp3-f...

replies(1): >>pyman+sb
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6. Imusta+t9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 11:27:00
>>pyman+j1
I really feel as if Youtube is the best sort of convenience for music videos where most people watch ads whereas some people can use an ad blocker.

I use an adblocker and tbh I think so many people on HN are okay with ad blocking and not piracy when basically both just block the end user from earning money.

I kind of believe that if you really like a software, you really like something. Just ask them what their favourite charity is and donate their or join their patreon/a direct way to support them.

replies(3): >>Workac+3G >>timeon+Pi1 >>x18746+aJ2
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7. j_w+Ua[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 11:36:14
>>KoolKa+t7
This is absurd. Remove all of the content from the training data that was pirated and what is the quality of the end product now?
replies(2): >>pyman+Vb >>KoolKa+Zb
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8. pyman+sb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 11:41:37
>>drcurs+38
Those claims were never proved.
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9. pyman+Vb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 11:43:22
>>j_w+Ua
With Claude, people are paying Anthropic to access answers that are generated from pirated books, without the authors permission, credit, or compensation.
replies(1): >>KoolKa+kc
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10. KoolKa+Zb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 11:43:49
>>j_w+Ua
That's the law.

Please keep in mind, copyright is intended as a compromise between benefit to society and to the individual.

A thought experiment, students pirating textbooks and applying that knowledge later on in their work?

replies(2): >>j_w+Tg >>nwiene+sO1
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11. KoolKa+kc[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 11:45:57
>>pyman+Vb
There is no copyright on knowledge.

If it outputs parts of the book verbatim then that's a different story.

replies(2): >>pyman+ih >>SirMas+dU
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12. j_w+Tg[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 12:19:22
>>KoolKa+Zb
When you say that's the law, as far as I'm aware a single ruling by a lower court has been issued which upholds that application. Hardly settled case law.
replies(1): >>KoolKa+Gj
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13. pyman+ih[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 12:22:58
>>KoolKa+kc
Let's don't change the focus of the debate.

Pirating 7 million books, remixing their content, and using that to power Claude.ai is like counterfeiting 7 million branded products and selling them on your personal website. The original creators don't get credit or payment, and someone’s profiting off their work.

All this happens while authors, many of them teachers, are left scratching their heads with four kids to feed

replies(1): >>KoolKa+Vj
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14. KoolKa+Gj[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 12:38:43
>>j_w+Tg
True, until then best to act as if it is the case.

In my opinion, it will be upheld.

Looking at what is stored and the manner which it is stored. It makes sense that it's fair use.

replies(1): >>j_w+g81
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15. KoolKa+Vj[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 12:40:40
>>pyman+ih
That may be the case, but you'd have to have laws changed.
16. mrcwin+8z[view] [source] 2025-07-07 14:26:23
>>origin+(OP)
> At least most pirates just consume for personal use.

Easy for the pirate to say. Artists might argue their intent was to trade compensation for one's personal enjoyment of the work.

replies(1): >>Workac+iF
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17. Workac+iF[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 15:01:22
>>mrcwin+8z
The gut punch of being a photographer selling your work on display, someone walks by and lines up their phone to take a perfect picture of your photograph, and then exclaims to you "Your work is beautiful! I can't wait to print this out and put it on my wall!"
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18. Workac+3G[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 15:05:48
>>Imusta+t9
If you are someone who can think clearly, it's extremely obvious that the conversation around copyright, LLMs, piracy, and ad-blocking is

"What serves me personally the best for any given situation" for 95% of people.

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19. SirMas+dU[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 16:31:36
>>KoolKa+kc
>If it outputs parts of the book verbatim then that's a different story.

But it does...

replies(1): >>KoolKa+huC
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20. j_w+g81[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 17:50:48
>>KoolKa+Gj
We're talking about a summary judgement issued that has not yet been appealed. That doesn't make it "settled."

If by "what is stored and the manner which it is stored" is intended to signal model weights, I'm not sure what the argument is? The four factors of copyright in no way mention a storage medium for data, lossless or loss-y.

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

In my opinion, this will likely see a supreme court ruling by the end of the decade.

replies(1): >>KoolKa+dg1
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21. KoolKa+dg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 18:40:23
>>j_w+g81
The use is to train an AI model.

A trillion parameter SOTA model is not substantially comprised of the one copyrighted piece. (If it was a Harry Potter model trained only on Harry Potter books this would be a different story).

Embeddings are not copy paste.

The last point about market impact would be where they make their argument but it's tenuous. It's not the primary use of AI models and built in prompts try to avoid this, so it shouldn't be commonplace unless you're jail breaking the model, most folk aren't.

replies(1): >>nwiene+IO1
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22. timeon+Pi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 18:56:54
>>Imusta+t9
I think that critique of this case is not about piracy in itself but how these companies are treated by courts vs. how individuals are treated.
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23. nwiene+sO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 23:12:58
>>KoolKa+Zb
Its the law (for now, very early on this in the process of deciding the law, untested, appealable, likely to be appealed and tested many times in many ways).

Meanwhile other cases have been less friendly to it being fair use, AI companies are already paying vast sums to publishers who presumably they wouldn’t if they felt confident it was “the law”, and on and on.

I don’t like arguing from “it’s the law”. A lot of law is terrible. What’s right? It’s clear to me that if AI gets good enough, as it nearly is now, it sucks a lot of profit away from creators. That is unbalanced. The AI doesn’t exist without the creators, the creators need to exist for our society to be great (we want new creative works, more if anything). Law tends to start conservatively based on historical precedent, and when a new technology comes along it often errs on letting it do some damage to avoid setting a bad precedent. In time it catches up as society gets a better view of things.

The right thing is likely not to let our creative class be decimated so a few tech companies become fantastically wealthy - in the long run, it’s the right thing even for the techies.

replies(1): >>KoolKa+ZuC
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24. nwiene+IO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-07 23:16:13
>>KoolKa+dg1
I bet it’s pretty easy to reproduce enough of Harry Potter from these models that any judge would see it as not fair use - you’d just have to prompt it in the right way. I’d bet a large sum that when this eventually shakes through the Supreme Court, it won’t be deemed fair use entirely, for the better of the world.
replies(1): >>KoolKa+dS3
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25. x18746+aJ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-08 11:29:59
>>Imusta+t9
And somehow actually paying for youtube which fully removes advertising and provides revenue to the service/creators is seen as an utterly absurd proposition by a staggering number of people.
replies(1): >>akimbo+BN2
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26. akimbo+BN2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-08 12:21:54
>>x18746+aJ2
Maybe because they don't want to reward Google for continuously running Youtube into the ground while still being worse than the free alternatives. Not to mention that they already watering down permium with premium lite, I give it two tears before you need to get premium+ to not see ads.
replies(1): >>x18746+W85
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27. KoolKa+dS3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-08 19:54:01
>>nwiene+IO1
If I use my Microsoft Word processor in the right way I can reproduce it too.
replies(1): >>nwiene+4M6
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28. x18746+W85[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-09 10:36:45
>>akimbo+BN2
Then don't use the service? Use one of the 'better' free alternatives. Let's see how long they remain free once (if) they actually see a meaningful amount of traffic. Complaining about advertising while using a service for which you pay nothing is immature and unreasonable. I hate advertising and have done everything I can to remove it from my life. That means paying for services that I enjoy using. I would rather provide value to the business via money than ad attention.
replies(2): >>Imusta+vu5 >>akimbo+QK6
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29. Imusta+vu5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-09 13:13:13
>>x18746+W85
Yes, The amount of traffic that youtube can sustain is really wild.

But yea one of the smallest nitpicks I have with them is the algorithm since its a hit or miss. Sure you can remove the algorithm completely but I would really wish if I could ask something like their SOTA AI models (Gemini) to make my algorithm for me right within youtube and I can say things like No clickbait etc.

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30. akimbo+QK6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-09 20:37:35
>>x18746+W85
>Then don't use the service? Use one of the 'better' free alternatives

you can use alternatives but those do not have the actual content that is the reason anybody watches youtube (its in the name).

im also talking about free alternatives to premium being better for example offline videos still having DRM unlike every free yt downloader ever. the only way they have made premium better is by actively making the experience worse for everybody else is by pay walling the old default bitrate.

>Let's see how long they remain free once (if) they actually see a meaningful amount of traffic

there continues effort towards making the platform worse with every decision does not have anything to do with funding

https://www.thetoptens.com/youtube/youtube-features-were-rem...

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31. nwiene+4M6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-09 20:47:46
>>KoolKa+dS3
The law is good at dismissing bad faith arguments like this, they are conceptually very far apart.
replies(1): >>KoolKa+FvC
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32. KoolKa+huC[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-21 15:39:23
>>SirMas+dU
Not really, these have to be meaningful chunks and then yes, this is a separate court case.
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33. KoolKa+ZuC[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-21 15:42:38
>>nwiene+sO1
They're paying those sums, because legal fees are expensive and this ensures ongoing access in future.

Remember, copyright has always been a comprise between individuals and society in the first place. We can extend it but in the same breath, it may have other unforseen consequences.

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34. KoolKa+FvC[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-21 15:45:42
>>nwiene+4M6
My point if you are going so far as to piece it together, you can't blame the LLM. The individual chose to do that. And copyright law primarily is concerned with the actual physical reproduced object at the end of the day not tools used (piecing it together means it is merely a tool).
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