zlacker

[parent] [thread] 37 comments
1. roenxi+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-05-27 00:28:00
The "5. The Human Wreckage" section is probably the most interesting - on paper, everyone came out much worse (losers identified are workers, pension holders, shareholders, investors and executives which seems superficially comprehensive).

However it is important to recall that the people who actually made all the money extracting the wealth got out years before, retiring and/or selling stock. They're bystanders now and probably happy to run the whole operation again.

Although as an aside who these people are who think corporate pensions are a good idea is beyond me. People really should be in charge of their own savings in preference to their employer, expecting some random corporation to cover the cost was always a bit crazy even when it seemed sort-of possible that the system was stable. It is easy to have some sympathy but, as a practical matter, it was never going to work and it isn't a surprise that it didn't.

replies(6): >>rlkf+5p >>Walter+Dp >>potato+CI >>ghaff+9Y >>tbrown+B31 >>_DeadF+En2
2. rlkf+5p[view] [source] 2025-05-27 06:36:53
>>roenxi+(OP)
In Norway, the companies are required by law to pay the pensions into a special type of investment account where withdrawal are not allowed until you are retired, but you can choose your own investment profile: A mandatory 401k.

The arrangement where the _company_ controls the account seems to me to be more of a allowed delay in salary payout, to the benefit of the company, than a retirement account for the employee.

replies(4): >>varjag+wC >>lazide+bF >>mystif+hy1 >>kelsey+WF2
3. Walter+Dp[view] [source] 2025-05-27 06:43:43
>>roenxi+(OP)
The free market is a chaotic system of creative destruction. Expecting a company to still be solvent decades from now is naive. Tying your investments in with the same company that provides you a job is also risky.

Defined contribution is a much less risky retirement scheme.

replies(2): >>ghaff+uY >>_DeadF+7o2
◧◩
4. varjag+wC[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 09:23:21
>>rlkf+5p
The savings are managed by bank or insurance companies' subsidiaries who are entirely unrelated to the employer. In other words it has nothing to do with mid century corporate pensions.
◧◩
5. lazide+bF[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 09:55:44
>>rlkf+5p
The real fun situation is when the 401k requires mandatory investment in the company stock.

None of the responsibility, all the moral hazard.

replies(1): >>collin+IM
6. potato+CI[view] [source] 2025-05-27 10:48:09
>>roenxi+(OP)
>However it is important to recall that the people who actually made all the money extracting the wealth got out years before, retiring and/or selling stock. They're bystanders now and probably happy to run the whole operation again.

And therein lies the problem with modern society. Whether you're an MBA wrecking a company or a voter wrecking the local economy there is no mechanism for the people who you've wronged to get at you so there's no incentive not to behave that way.

replies(1): >>eadmun+ST
◧◩◪
7. collin+IM[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 11:34:23
>>lazide+bF
This was made illegal in the US after Enron.
replies(1): >>tartuf+fX
◧◩
8. eadmun+ST[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 12:37:15
>>potato+CI
Be very very careful about what you wish for: your definition of who’s wronged whom and others’ definition of who’s wronged whom are going to vary, and often be in direct opposition.
replies(1): >>LocalH+XX
◧◩◪◨
9. tartuf+fX[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 13:01:53
>>collin+IM
For now
replies(1): >>creatu+j51
◧◩◪
10. LocalH+XX[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 13:06:45
>>eadmun+ST
That definition should always favor the small guy over the megarich. It should be inverse of the situation's power balance.
replies(2): >>DocTom+x61 >>adolph+M61
11. ghaff+9Y[view] [source] 2025-05-27 13:08:42
>>roenxi+(OP)
I do understand the argument that a lot of people won’t really save money left to their own devices. And I’m not unhappy to be receiving a modest pension from a decades ago job I probably didn’t give more than a minute’s thought to at the time. But don’t really disagree that for people who are reasonably disciplined about savings, getting the money as salary is probably the better deal.
replies(1): >>bombca+q41
◧◩
12. ghaff+uY[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 13:11:23
>>Walter+Dp
There are various protections to defined benefit these days. I get one from a company that is long gone. But certainly not perfect.
13. tbrown+B31[view] [source] 2025-05-27 13:44:38
>>roenxi+(OP)
> Although as an aside who these people are who think corporate pensions are a good idea is beyond me.

Ignore the practicalities and look at the story.

They're a promise that someone stronger than you will provide for you in your old age.

replies(2): >>01HNNW+G71 >>WorldM+Sg1
◧◩
14. bombca+q41[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 13:49:12
>>ghaff+9Y
Disciplined people will almost always do well (ignoring unfortunate circumstances, mainly) - it's the undisciplined that the system has to be sure to protect.

Of course, the goal should be to turn undisciplined people into disciplined ones over time.

replies(1): >>datavi+gw1
◧◩◪◨⬒
15. creatu+j51[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 13:55:36
>>tartuf+fX
Except this time around it'll be mandatory Trump coin
◧◩◪◨
16. DocTom+x61[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 14:03:19
>>LocalH+XX
But then, before you know it, you’re back in the terror phase of the French Revolution—because once the guillotine demands to be fed, “the powerful” quickly becomes “whoever we don’t like.”

After several iterations of this pattern throughout our history (other examples are the Leninist/Stalinist purges or the McCarthy era), perhaps it is time we seek a better path—one that doesn’t end up written in the darker pages of our history books.

replies(2): >>toyg+9m1 >>_zamor+Uw1
◧◩◪◨
17. adolph+M61[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 14:04:44
>>LocalH+XX
Using the word "should" acknowledges the proposed as counterfactual and the opposite as a rule that transcends any person's will. Its as harmless a claim as saying gravity has been reversed by redefining up.
◧◩
18. 01HNNW+G71[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 14:11:34
>>tbrown+B31
It probably looked like a good idea when companies presented themselves as immortal institutions. I've never worked for a company that big
◧◩
19. WorldM+Sg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 15:14:56
>>tbrown+B31
The story also included for many years that the collective investment was stronger than the individual investments could be. A hedge fund with a bigger wallet could have more options, could have more bargaining power, could have access to investment deals that are out of reach of one individual's savings. That's a powerful story. We saw so many of the things that can go wrong, especially in 2008, but the raw idea of a larger pension fund is cheaper to run and has more financial leverage is still a good story with some truth behind it.

(As an individual investor, I do often wonder what sort of bargains and better investment options I miss out on that investing together with two or three friends with similar retirement goals could gain me by investing together as a team. I realize that's the point of hedge funds/mutual funds, but today's hedge funds/mutual funds themselves have tiered fee structure pools based in staked investment and it never feels like an even playing field if I'm trying to manage my own investments even with the competition between hedge funds/mutual funds today.)

replies(1): >>datavi+ov1
◧◩◪◨⬒
20. toyg+9m1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 15:49:31
>>DocTom+x61
Well, one side of the struggle has all the means and time to find this better path. Are they doing that? No. So why should the weaker, poorer side do it ...?
replies(1): >>roenxi+el2
◧◩◪
21. datavi+ov1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 16:54:20
>>WorldM+Sg1
Oil and Gas ventures. You have to be an accredited investor to buy in and boy oh boy is it a juicy deal. Income tax is capped and ALL invested capital can be written off immediately (you get it all back plus profits) and there are other benefits I'm forgetting.
◧◩◪
22. datavi+gw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 17:00:26
>>bombca+q41
These people are "undisciplined" because they have no idea how profitable investing is. Neither do educators (pensioned) and a lot of people have an ingrained misconception that you are going to lose money "in the stock market."

They hear of possible returns like 10-15% and shrug and look at bear markets as harmful to their wealth.

Really an education issue but it is complicated. Stuffing money in a mutual fund is risky and also not an option if you are behind. A lot of people are behind.

replies(2): >>ghaff+rP1 >>kelsey+7G2
◧◩◪◨⬒
23. _zamor+Uw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 17:05:18
>>DocTom+x61
Or whoever wear glasses and looks "intellectual", or whoever has a business and so is burgeouis. It always ends the same.

First is the megarich, then is the wealthy, and then its the baker and then it´s you... barely doing better than them.

◧◩
24. mystif+hy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 17:14:45
>>rlkf+5p
The traditional way pensions were handled in the US was directly by the company and paid from company coffers. In those days, the goal of any company was to stay in business long term. One of the ways that was accomplished was by making a lifetime career with the company as attractive as possible through generous pensions.

In modern times, retirement is pretty much exclusively through private investment accounts (401k and similar) into which your company may directly deposit funds. Nowadays it'd be a crazy risk to pin your retirement 100% on a single company. The company could fail, raid the pension fund, or just decide to not pay anymore. All those things happened and that's why we use private investment accounts now.

There are still some traditional pension plans, notably the US postal service. But they're very rare now.

replies(1): >>dowage+QF1
◧◩◪
25. dowage+QF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 18:14:14
>>mystif+hy1
most companies converted from pensions to self-directed plans because the cost of any benefit is essentially free compared to a defined benefit pension plan.
◧◩◪◨
26. ghaff+rP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-27 19:19:23
>>datavi+gw1
A lot of people will basically say maybe next year but I'm totally strapped right now. Perhaps after I've paid off my credit card--and in that respect they're likely not even wrong.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
27. roenxi+el2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 00:46:15
>>toyg+9m1
... because if you identify your opponents as making mistakes/behaving poorly it is a mistake to copy them.

If your argument is basically assuming "[these people] managed the situation so stupidly they triggered a social collapse" then it is an excellent strategy to try doing things differently. The aim should be to make things better, not worse with different people in charge.

replies(1): >>toyg+t26
28. _DeadF+En2[view] [source] 2025-05-28 01:25:33
>>roenxi+(OP)
In the 1980s there were no index funds. There were no discount brokers. There was no internet. Joe Average factory worker was not capable of picking up a phone during work hours to call his broker and manage his investments. There was not tax deferred IRS blessed retirement vehicle until 401ks were officially blessed in 1986. Before 401ks were CODAs which, again, tied a worker to investing in his employer. Retirement planning was whole life insurance and buying physical bonds down at the local bank branch, maybe investing in a single stock that paid a dividend with the hopes you could live off the dividend.
replies(1): >>datavi+eT3
◧◩
29. _DeadF+7o2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 01:31:09
>>Walter+Dp
The 80s were a different time. There were no index funds. No discount brokers. No internet. But from the 1800s up until the 1980s lots of people retired successfully and lived quite well via investing in a single company and receiving dividend returns from that company. But that was back when the stock market wasn't just short term gambling and short term stock manipulation via corporate stock buybacks and you actually invested in strong companies that you planned to hold through retirement.

Funny what incentives get you. We had incentives for long term consistent strength (people holding stocks for dividends) and got it. Today we hold for short term gambling profits so we get gambling style shell games of companies.

◧◩
30. kelsey+WF2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 06:15:00
>>rlkf+5p
Australia has a similar system called Super. On top of base pay, every Australian employer has to contribute another 11.5% of a person's salary into an employee-controlled Super investment fund that the employee can only touch upon retirement or severe illness.

It's a great system.

replies(1): >>roboca+0J4
◧◩◪◨
31. kelsey+7G2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 06:19:53
>>datavi+gw1
It is difficult to be "disciplined" when you are trying to afford the rising costs of rent, car payments, childcare, and food. A majority of people live pay cheque to pay cheque, and are lucky to save a few thousand dollars.
◧◩
32. datavi+eT3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:39:11
>>_DeadF+En2
They couldn't trade options either. A huge wealth booster or income.
◧◩◪
33. roboca+0J4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 22:01:57
>>kelsey+WF2
New Zealand copied it, except employee has to pay 3% (now just increased to 4%) and employer matches.

What happens with contractors in Oz? I know a nurse over there on high hourly rate, and I'm guessing part of the reason is to avoid employer contributions.

Is there a strong push for contractors throughout the Oz economy (not just government)?

replies(1): >>bigfat+T75
◧◩◪◨
34. bigfat+T75[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 02:32:02
>>roboca+0J4
Most contractors “work” for a payroll firm that manages this for them, which is usually the recruiting firm that put them into the role.

For tax and superannuation purposes, they are PAYG employees in non-ongoing positions.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
35. toyg+t26[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 13:47:24
>>roenxi+el2
But the poor side does not have any margins or resources, they don't have a choice as such. The only thing they can do is force the powerful to change course, by showing them what happens if they don't.
replies(1): >>roenxi+X66
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
36. roenxi+X66[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 14:17:40
>>toyg+t26
> ...by showing them what happens if they don't.

So do the poor not have any resources, or do they have sufficient resources to bully the rich? Because if they have enough resources to cause other people problems they should maybe consider trying to use those resources to better themselves instead.

They don't have much, but they have more than enough to get much better results if they behaved in a sensible and organised fashion. If nothing else, a lot of poor people live in democracies and have the numbers to ram policy through if they have enough neurons to separate good ideas from bad [0]. I suppose it depends on what you want to call poor, but if they've got the numbers, time and energy to wreck things then they've certainly got the numbers to effect positive change.

I'd agree most people probably aren't up to the challenge; but searching for a better way is a much better strategy than being all "we're going for a replay of la Terreur!".

[0] The political process is pretty devastating evidence that they don't, it appears the best effort in a well educated place like the US was either Trump or the US Democrats. Hard to tell which attempt is more pathetic. Most voters have nearly no idea abut complex issues like creating prosperity.

replies(2): >>immibi+9l6 >>toyg+th8
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
37. immibi+9l6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 15:50:28
>>roenxi+X66
The poor can sacrifice their lives to get back at the rich. This happens if the rich make things so bad the poor decide their lives have zero or negative value. This happens often throughout history.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
38. toyg+th8[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-30 10:28:26
>>roenxi+X66
If you think the US is "well-educated" or that their electoral process is "the best effort", I'm afraid there is a lot more stuff you need to read about political systems and the reality of class before you can pass judgement.

The US political system works like the ruling classes want it to work, no more and no less. The poor are simply performing some choreography.

[go to top]