The global system of free trade and human rights has been the most free, prosperous, and peaceful era of humanity by far. Whole nations lifted from deep poverty, such as China and India (with still more to be done!). Incredible prosperity for the wealthy. Freedom, self-determination, democracy and human rights as the global norms.
Why are we throwing it away again? Much could be done to reform it, but we'll just throw it out?
Because we haven't figured out how to square allowing people the freedom to work in the industries they please, no matter where in the world that industry has found itself, with allowing countries to strictly limit who is allowed inside its borders.
The "just learn to code" message never sat well with those who have no interest in coding and now they are rising up to try and take back, so to speak, the work they actually want to do. The far reaching consequences that go along with that are not of their personal concern.
Do you think Trump and the GOP are doing it because of labor rights?
"Brain drain" is a always hot topic in my country. Many people from here move to the US for access to certain industries, tech included. They aren't going there to do whatever arbitrary work they can find.
Those in the US who love manufacturing aren't moving to China, but that's the issue: They, unless they have something really unique to offer, are going to find it difficult to. Hence why they want to see that work "brought home".
That's a good point; I wasn't thinking of that. Still, the number of immigrants to the US for 'brain drain' jobs I'd guess is relatively small, and Trump supports them to some degree - he likes wealthy immigrants, including in tech. Remember the recent (H-1B?) visa controversy.
> Those who love manufacturing
Is that really a passion for many people, working on an assembly line? I've read about it as a necessary job to pay the bills that almost nobody likes, and they want their kids to have someting better, etc.
Right, but it's the converse that is the issue: Americans wanting to do jobs that aren't found (or only found in a limited way) in America. Trump also supports them. The intent is to see things like manufacturing jobs happen more often on American soil so that Americans can do those jobs.
> Is that really a passion for many people, working on an assembly line?
The idea of it is, at least. I know a lot of people who have impressive manufacturing facilities in their garages just to support it as a hobby. Manufacturing is clearly a relatively common passion. You may have a point that they might come to hate the work if it became their daily reality, but the emotions that drive this sort of thing are never grounded in logic. Besides, it is not like they love the burgers they are flipping right now.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/29/florida-repu...
Much manufacturing labor can be physically hard and damaging over the years. Many people spend their old age crippled from lifting heavy things all their lives, repetitive stress, and the associated serious injuries that eventually happen during tens of thousands of hours. You are pushed to work faster and harder for the entire day, with fewer breaks, etc. That's your life for decades.
My impression is that most people working in manufacturing - as labor - would retire immediately if they could (and spend time in their garage). Many engineers probably are happy to keep working.
You've never heard of the term "brain drain"?
However, you must remember the bit about limiting who is allowed in the country. If you were a German with a hypothetical burning desire to flip burgers at In-N-Out Burger, what are the chances of you getting a work visa? I would say effectively nil. So you're not going to see those people even if they would arrive in a world without borders.
You believe it is only the people currently working in manufacturing that want to see America create more manufacturing jobs? Surely any desire they might have to work in manufacturing is already fulfilled?
That has certainly never been my impression. As far as I can see it is those who dream of working in manufacturing who make the case for the need for manufacturing jobs. They are tired of flipping burgers and want something else – something they think will be fulfilling. As such, it is unlikely that they are in-tune with the realities of it.
That's a great point. Legal immigration (to somewhere desireable) is not an option for much of the population. What interest do they have in preserving it?
I think working people [edit: a very general, loaded term] want higher-paying jobs, and some of them think manufacturing is good solution. I doubt their dream is working on the assembly line - that's not what people grow up dreaming of, or quit their higher-paying jobs to do.
Political leaders push manufacturing jobs for one reason or another. And I expect much of the support is from unions that want more jobs for their members - so yes, that's people currently in manufacturing.
Is there really demand for manufacturing jobs from the rest of the labor force, rather than any higher-paying, stable job? I don't know.
Not all manufacturing is on an assembly line either, of course. That is especially true of the manufacturing Americans still see taking place in America.
That very well may be what new jobs will look like, should they be created, but emotions are not logical.
A good question. It is quite possible that they don't – that a different segment of the population has that interest.
Some people do enjoy assembly line work, and in fact I would say a large amount of people want a reliable job with minimal mental overhead. There’s a lot more industry wants though: welders, safety personell, repair techs, engineers, chemists, programmers, electricians, hydraulic specialists, all just depends on the company. A car manufacturer for instance prioritizes robotics, but a steel plant would prefer welders and machinists. Tons of opportunity for people to do the jobs they love for good pay and benefits, if we could get more manufacturing into the US.
And, while Mexico is trying to limit forced labor, they’re still one of our bigger exporters of forced labor: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/resources/reports/child-la...
So it’s hardly a hypothetical. As for balancing benefits and costs, slave labor intrinsically weakens the value of labor to any country that imports, so ideally the US would tariff goods that are labor intensive from countries that practice slave labor. In general, taking China off of the UN Human Rights Council would be a good show (for what little the UN does), and countries that oppose slavery should tariff the countries that do it as well. I don’t want a blood diamond on my wife‘s finger, why would I want a blood apple in my mouth?
As for Trump, I believe he does so in part, not from an ethics perspective however. I imagine he views slave labor as undercutting US labor value, just as illegal immigration does, and that it plays some part in wrestling manufacturing away from China.
That's not how legislatures work. It's like saying, 'take Senator Jones off the HHS committee because they are anti-vaccine' - the people in Senator Jones' state are entitled to representation with complete disregard for whether others like their Senator. Legislatures work with power as it is, not as how we want it to be.
> for what little the UN does
People on the right repeat it, but repetition doesn't make it fact. What do you know, specifically, about what the UN does (about human rights, if that's what you mean). The foundations for international law, which is powerful and effective though imperfect - like domestic law, but lacking the same enforcement mechanisms.
> [China and Mexico]
If everyone stopped doing all business with anyone in a country that does bad things, there would be no business or trade. Trade enriches the US, and has lifted billions out of poverty - including in China and Mexico.
Putting them back into poverty is just reckless. You need to come up with a better solution to your leaky roof than burning down the house.
That's completely different than working on an assembly line.
> Some people do enjoy assembly line work
Who? How many? I don't think I've ever heard it (though I'm sure someone must). Do you like it? Why don't you work on assembly line.
> would say a large amount of people want a reliable job with minimal mental overhead
That's an ignorant, condescending description of assembly line work. You'll need some evidence of this great mass of people, "I would say" isn't evidence.
> Tons of opportunity for people to do the jobs they love for good pay and benefits, if we could get more manufacturing into the US.
That's not the case - American companies can't find enough people with those skills as it is; there is no need for more of those jobs.
Manufacturing isn't defined by the assembly line, of course. Good data is hard to find, so take from it what you will, but the internet loosely suggests that only around 30% of manufacturing jobs are on the assembly line or adjacent to an assembly line. Anecdotal observation aligns with that, so I expect it is in the right ballpark.
> I don't think I've ever heard it
It is not so much the hot topic it once was, but when manufacturing was really in its decline you would frequently see in the news interviews with former manufacturing labour expressing such things as they lamented no longer being able to work in the industry.
It may not be sipping margaritas on the beach enjoyment, but on the spectrum it is unsurprising that many find it to be more enjoyable than other types of jobs. For as bad as you can imagine the assembly line to be, there is undoubtedly someone doing a job that is far worse.
> That's an ignorant, condescending description of assembly line work.
If these kinds of feelings are flooding your head, you have not considered the statement logically. That is not in good faith. Rationally, where do you find error in the statement?
> American companies can't find enough people with those skills as it is; there is no need for more of those jobs.
There is definitely an information problem. Manufacturing by and large happens in small town/rural areas (70% of it, according to the BLS), while people by and large live in large urban areas. The urban dwellers exclaim "Where are the jobs???" and the rural dwellers exclaim "Where are the workers???" It is a fascinating disconnect – something we see outside of manufacturing too.
You are right that this isn't apt to fix that problem. However, it is important to remember that the people calling for this aren't running complex mathematical models to ensure that moving manufacturing to the USA will be better for the world or whatever you think should be driving. They are simply in the mindset of: "I think I want to work in manufacturing. Give me that!" It is not a solution with well-considered grounding. It is an attempt to appease emotions.
I did not have any specific countries in mind; I’m just pretty sure that there are such countries. I’d have to look it up to get any references.
> Do you think Trump and the GOP are doing it because of labor rights?
Nobody knows why they are doing it, since nobody can read their minds. But I was not talking about them, I was addressing your implied argument that all tariffs are bad and abolishing them will lead to global prosperity. I would think that abolishing tariffs would at least give other countries huge incentives to exploit their own populations (including children) in order to get money from countries where such exploitation is illegal.
I think when you get into the realm of extremes, you are no longer debating another human but a strawperson in your mind.