zlacker

[parent] [thread] 48 comments
1. amiga3+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-02-23 20:29:53
Charlie Stross's blog is next.

Liability is unlimited and there's no provision in law for being a single person or small group of volunteers. You'll be held to the same standards as a behemoth with full time lawyers (the stated target of the law but the least likely to be affected by it)

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2024/12/storm-cl...

The entire law is weaponised unintented consequences.

replies(9): >>wkat42+T1 >>tene80+s2 >>0xbadc+I2 >>aimazo+O2 >>bdzr+p4 >>eminen+d7 >>throwa+r9 >>ekianj+rF >>oliwar+9b2
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2. wkat42+T1[view] [source] 2025-02-23 20:43:40
>>amiga3+(OP)
> unintented consequences

Intended consequences no doubt.

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3. tene80+s2[view] [source] 2025-02-23 20:49:51
>>amiga3+(OP)
What standards would you want individuals or small groups to be held to? In a context where it is illegal for a company to allow hate speech or CSAM on their website, should individuals be allowed to? Or do you just mean the punishment should be less?
replies(3): >>Anthon+13 >>amiga3+K3 >>ta8645+Z3
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4. 0xbadc+I2[view] [source] 2025-02-23 20:51:24
>>amiga3+(OP)
big DMCA energy
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5. aimazo+O2[view] [source] 2025-02-23 20:52:49
>>amiga3+(OP)
There has been new information since that blog post which has reaffirmed the "this is much ado about nothing" takes because Ofcom have said that they do not want to be a burden on smaller sites.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/online-safety/illegal-and-harmful-c...

"We’ve heard concerns from some smaller services that the new rules will be too burdensome for them. Some of them believe they don’t have the resources to dedicate to assessing risk on their platforms, and to making sure they have measures in place to help them comply with the rules. As a result, some smaller services feel they might need to shut down completely.

So, we wanted to reassure those smaller services that this is unlikely to be the case."

replies(9): >>ColinW+d4 >>pembro+Q4 >>amiga3+d6 >>rkacho+i6 >>transc+C6 >>mlfree+x7 >>incomp+9c >>fweime+kg >>smsm42+261
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6. Anthon+13[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 20:54:07
>>tene80+s2
The obvious solution is to have law enforcement enforce the law rather than private parties. If someone posts something bad to your site, the police try to find who posted it and arrest them, and the only obligation on the website is to remove the content in response to a valid court order.
replies(1): >>tene80+04
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7. amiga3+K3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 20:58:52
>>tene80+s2
How about:

Individuals and small groups not held directly liable for comments on their blog unless its proven they're responsible for inculcating that environment.

"Safe harbour" - if someone threatens legal action, the host can pass on liability to the poster of the comment. They can (temporarily) hide/remove the comment until a court decides on its legality.

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8. ta8645+Z3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:01:17
>>tene80+s2
How about have separate laws for CSAM and "hate speech". Because CSAM is most likely just a fig-leaf for the primary motivation of these laws.
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9. tene80+04[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:01:23
>>Anthon+13
I don't have a strong view on this law – I haven't read enough into it. So I'm interested to know why you believe what you've just written. If a country is trying to, for example, make harder for CSAM to be distributed, why shouldn't the person operating the site where it's being hosted have some responsibility to make sure it can't be hosted there?
replies(1): >>manana+f4
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10. ColinW+d4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:02:59
>>aimazo+O2
"... unlikely ..."

Political winds shift, and if someone is saying something the new government doesn't like, the legislation is there to utterly ruin someone's life.

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11. manana+f4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:03:11
>>tene80+04
For one thing, because that person is not obliged to follow due process and will likely ban everything that even might even vaguely require them to involve a lawyer. See for example YouTube’s copyright strikes, which are much harsher on the uploader than any existing copyright law.
replies(1): >>tene80+F4
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12. bdzr+p4[view] [source] 2025-02-23 21:04:45
>>amiga3+(OP)
> the stated target of the law but the least likely to be affected by it

The least likely to be negatively affected. This will absolutely be good for them in that it just adds another item to the list of things that prevents new entrants from competing with them.

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13. tene80+F4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:06:45
>>manana+f4
Your argument is that it's better to have the illegal stuff (say, CSAM) online than for a site owner to, for practical reasons, ban a lot of legal stuff too? Why?
replies(3): >>noah_b+P5 >>dcow+79 >>Anthon+aa
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14. pembro+Q4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:07:59
>>aimazo+O2
Nothing more reassuring than a vague “we’re unlikely to go after you [if you stay on our good side.]”

It’s clear the UK wants big monopolistic tech platforms to fully dominate their local market so they only have a few throats to choke when trying to control the narrative…just like “the good old days” of centralized media.

I wouldn’t stand in the way of authoritarians if you value your freedom (or the ability to have a bank account).

The risk just isn't worth it. You write a blog post that rubs someone power-adjacent the wrong way and suddenly you're getting the classic "...nice little blog you have there...would be a shame to find something that could be interpreted as violating 1 of our 17 problem areas..."

replies(3): >>throwa+B9 >>HPsqua+9b >>owisd+Lb
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15. noah_b+P5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:15:46
>>tene80+F4
Some sorts of goods should be prioritized over some sorts of bads. There would be no terrorism if we locked every human in a box and kept them there, yet you do not support this position, why? I jest, but I think public discourse is an unalloyed good and I would rather we not compromise informal small discourse for the sake of anti-terrorism, anti-CSAM, etc. These things won’t be fully rooted out, they’ll just go to ground. Discourse will be harmed though.
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16. amiga3+d6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:18:58
>>aimazo+O2
Ofcom need to change the law then.

Unless Ofcom actively say "we will NOT enforce the Online Safety Act against small blogs", the chilling effect is still there. Ofcom need to own this. Either they enforce the bad law, or loudly reject their masters' bidding. None of this "oh i don't want to but i've had to prosecute this crippled blind orphan support forum because one of them insulted islam but ny hands are tied..."

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17. rkacho+i6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:19:55
>>aimazo+O2
> So, we wanted to reassure those smaller services that this is unlikely to be the case

This is the flimsiest paper thin reassurance. They've built a gun with which they can destroy the lives of individuals hosting user generated content, but they've said they're unlikely to use it.

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18. transc+C6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:22:39
>>aimazo+O2
The Canadian government did the same thing when they accidentally outlawed certain shotguns by restricting bore diameter without specifying it was for rifles.

A minister tweeted that it didn’t apply to shotguns, as if that’s legally binding as opposed to you know, the law as written.

replies(1): >>throwa+X9
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19. eminen+d7[view] [source] 2025-02-23 21:25:46
>>amiga3+(OP)
This is an honest question. Why does a blog need to shutdown? If they moderate every comment before it is published on the website, what's the problem? I ask because I've got a UK-based blog too. It has got comments feature. Wouldn't enabling moderation for all comments be enough?
replies(1): >>Mindwi+K9
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20. mlfree+x7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:27:35
>>aimazo+O2
The use of "unlikely" just screams that Ofcom will eventually pull a Vader..."We are altering the deal, pray we don't alter it any further".
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21. dcow+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:42:31
>>tene80+F4
That is not the argument. The argument is that, with appropriate court order, a site operator must take down the illegal material (if it hasn’t already been moderated out). However, the site owner should not be liable for that content appearing on their site since it was not put there by them and since there is value in uncensored/unmoderated online communities. The person who posted the content should be liable, not the site owner. In neither case is the content just freely siting there harming the public and unable to be removed because nobody is liable for punishment.

I think an interesting alternate angle here would be to require unmoderated community admins to keep record of real identity info for participants, so if something bad shows up the person who posted it is trivially identifiable and can easily be reprimanded. This has other problems, of course, but is interesting to consider.

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22. throwa+r9[view] [source] 2025-02-23 21:46:03
>>amiga3+(OP)
Its very much intended. It's easier for the powers that be to deal with a few favored oligarchs. They're building a great British firewall like china.
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23. throwa+B9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:47:49
>>pembro+Q4
For my friends everything, for my enemies the law.

Uneven enforcement is the goal.

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24. Mindwi+K9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:48:54
>>eminen+d7
No, you still need to do things like write an impact assessment etc and you're still on the hook for "illegal" comments where you aren't a judge and have to arbitrarily decide what might be when you have no legal expertise whatsoever.
replies(1): >>eminen+Cd
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25. throwa+X9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:50:49
>>transc+C6
The democrats wrote a bill to hire 60k new armed IRS agents and promised they wouldn't be used to go after anyone with an income less than 250k. Senator Mike Crapo tried to add an ammendment to put that in the bill but they blocked it. We have a serious problem with politicians lying about the text of bills.
replies(1): >>kelnos+rb
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26. Anthon+aa[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:52:32
>>tene80+F4
Let's consider two ways of dealing with this problem:

1) Law enforcement enforces the law. People posting CSAM are investigated by the police, who have warrants and resources and so on, so each time they post something is another chance to get caught. When they get caught they go to jail and can't harm any more children.

2) Private parties try to enforce the law. The people posting CSAM get banned, but the site has no ability to incarcerate them, so they just make a new account and do it again. Since they can keep trying and the penalty is only having to create a new account, which they don't really care about, it becomes a cat and mouse game except that even if the cat catches the mouse, the mouse just reappears under a different name with the new knowledge of how to avoid getting caught next time. Since being detected has minimal risk, they get to try lots of strategies until they learn how to evade the cat, instead of getting eaten (i.e. going to prison) the first time they get caught. So they get better at evading detection, which makes it harder for law enforcement to catch them either. Meanwhile the site is then under increasing pressure to "do something" because the problem has been made worse rather than better, so they turn up the false positives and cause more collateral damage to innocent people. But that doesn't change the dynamic, it only causes the criminals to evolve their tactics, which they can try an unlimited number of times until they learn how to evade detection again. Meanwhile as soon as they do, the site despite their best efforts is now hosting the material again. The combined costs of the heroic efforts to try and the liability from inevitably failing destroys smaller sites and causes market consolidation. The megacorps then become a choke point for other censorship, some by various governments, others by the corporations themselves. That is an evil in itself, but if you like to take it from the other side, that evil causes ordinary people chafe. So they start to develop and use anti-censorship technology. As that technology becomes more widespread with greater public support, the perpetrators of the crimes you're trying to prevent find it easier to avoid detection.

You want the police to arrest the pedos. You don't want a dystopian megacorp police state.

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27. HPsqua+9b[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 21:59:29
>>pembro+Q4
Sovereign is he who makes the exception.
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28. kelnos+rb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 22:02:37
>>throwa+X9
While I certainly would prefer that the IRS first and foremost go after tax evasion perpetuated by the wealthy (if for no other reason than there's likely more bank for the buck there), tax law is tax law. If someone making less than $250k/yr is evading paying taxes, the IRS should go after them just the same as if it was someone making $5M/yr.
replies(1): >>throwa+Yh
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29. owisd+Lb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 22:05:13
>>pembro+Q4
Changing the code of practice is a years long statutory consultation process, they're not going to be able to change the rules to go after you on a whim.
replies(1): >>pembro+X41
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30. incomp+9c[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 22:08:58
>>aimazo+O2
"Unlikely," I suppose if you don't have any significant assets to be seized and don't care about ending up in prison, you may be willing to take the chance.
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31. eminen+Cd[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 22:21:14
>>Mindwi+K9
If I'm moderating all comments before they're published on the website, what's the problem? I mean, I've got a simple tech blog. I'm not going to publish random drive-by comments. Only comments that relate to my blog are ever going to be published. Am I making sense?
replies(2): >>Mindwi+2g >>mvdtnz+yj
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32. Mindwi+2g[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 22:40:44
>>eminen+Cd
Does anyone in your blog comments ever discuss circumvention of DRM?

That's a criminal offence in the UK (two year prison sentence in some circumstances). Do you have a good feeling for what might count as incitement in those circumstances?

replies(1): >>eminen+il
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33. fweime+kg[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 22:43:53
>>aimazo+O2
You can try the digital toolkit and see for yourself if this is a realistic pathway for a small site (such as a blog with a comment function). Personally, I find it puzzling that Ofcom thinks what they provide is helpful to small sites. Furthermore, they make it pretty clear that they see no reason for a purely size-based exemption (“we also know that harm can exist on the smallest as well as the largest services”). They do not explore ways to reach their goals without ongoing collaboration from small site owners, either.
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34. throwa+Yh[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 22:57:45
>>kelnos+rb
Usually people complain that the IRS doesn't go after >250k. I've never heard anyone argue that they don't go after <240k enough. This is why the democrats promised it would only be used to go after >250k.

The problem is the dishonesty, saying the intent is one thing but being unwilling to codify the stated intent.

replies(1): >>bdangu+ll
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35. mvdtnz+yj[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 23:11:45
>>eminen+Cd
It's weird that you completely ignored his answer and then asked the same question again. Refer to the post you responded to for an answer.
replies(1): >>eminen+xl
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36. eminen+il[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 23:27:58
>>Mindwi+2g
> Does anyone in your blog comments ever discuss circumvention of DRM?

No, they don't. My blog is not all that popular. It has got some programming puzzles, Linux HOW-TOs and stuff. Most of my audience is just my friends.

replies(1): >>ksec+Tq
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37. bdangu+ll[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 23:28:34
>>throwa+Yh
in order for going after everyone (or whatever arbitrary number we choose) it needs to be economically feasible. it is simple math and should be explained in simple math terms. it cost on average X amount to “go after someone” - if that amount exceeds what potential benefit is based of course on earning then we do it. otherwise it makes no sense. except we make this a political issue (as everything else). any sane person running IRS would do the math and figure out what the number is where it makes sense to go after someone
replies(1): >>Brian_+CT
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38. eminen+xl[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-23 23:30:25
>>mvdtnz+yj
Ah! Sorry. I did miss that they said "you still need to do things like write an impact assessment".

So what's the best course of action? Remove comments feature entirely? Maybe that's what I should do. I wonder what everyone else's doing.

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39. ksec+Tq[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-24 00:22:14
>>eminen+il
The point is, whether you think the comments are safe is irrelevant because you are not the judge.

Of course that is the cynical version of it. But as others have pointed out some people dont like these sort of risk.

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40. ekianj+rF[view] [source] 2025-02-24 03:18:30
>>amiga3+(OP)
> The entire law is weaponised unintented consequences.

That would assume no malice from the goverment? Isn't the default assumption that every government want to exert control over its population at this stage, even in "democracies"? There's nothing unintended here.

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41. Brian_+CT[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-24 06:26:33
>>bdangu+ll
Getting one persons taxes is not why you enforce, any more than why the police enforce other kinds of laws that don't have anything to do with bill collecting.
replies(1): >>bdangu+NH1
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42. pembro+X41[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-24 08:31:30
>>owisd+Lb
If you can’t find something to accuse from the SEVENTEEN “areas of focus” they’ve already designated in the law then I would argue you lack the creativity and thirst for power needed to climb the ranks as a politician.
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43. smsm42+261[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-24 08:41:36
>>aimazo+O2
Nothing reassures one as much as a goverment enforcement entity essentially saying "we have full legal right to squash you like a bug but for now we won't because we just don't want to. For now".
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44. bdangu+NH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-24 13:45:50
>>Brian_+CT
don’t disagree at all but what is a sensible policy you would implement regarding IRS audits?
replies(1): >>Brian_+Za7
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45. oliwar+9b2[view] [source] 2025-02-24 16:20:32
>>amiga3+(OP)
I thought that posts with comments are an explicit exception from the OSB.

From Ofcom:

> this exemption would cover online services where the only content users can upload or share is comments on media articles you have published

replies(1): >>amiga3+rP7
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46. Brian_+Za7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-26 04:12:08
>>bdangu+NH1
Whatever someone who's job and education is to develop such policies says. It's not my profession and it doesn't have to be.

The point is simply that even merely picking 1% or 0.1% of people completely at random to audit keeps 99% of normal people in line, which is far more valuable to society (not just in immediate dollars) than the cost of those few actual audits, regardless what those audits "earn" in collecting a few, or zero, or indeed negative dollars that might have gone uncollected from a random individual. There is no reason an audit should not show that there was an error and the government owes the taxayer, let alone collecting nothing or collecting less than the cost of the audit.

The police's job is not to recover ypur stolen lawnmower, it's to maintain order in general. They expend many thousands of dollars in resources to track down a lawnmower theif not to recover your $400 possession, but to inhibit the activity of theft in general.

Tax audits are, or should be imo, like that.

The actual details of what should be written in the IRS manual are this: Something.

It's a meaningless question since we're not at that level. I'm only talking about the fallacy of treating tax audits as nothing more than a direct and immediate source of income instead of a means to maintain order and a far greater but indirect source of income.

replies(1): >>amiga3+YR7
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47. amiga3+rP7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-26 12:25:17
>>oliwar+9b2
From the Ofcom regulations (https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/onli...):

> 1.17 A U2U service is exempt if the only way users can communicate on it is by posting comments or reviews on the service provider’s own content (as distinct from another user’s content).

A blog is only exempt if users communicate to the blogpost author, on the topic of the blogpost. If they comment on each other, or go off-topic, then the blog is not exempt.

That's why that exemption is basically useless. Anyone can write "hey commenter number 3 i agree commenter number 1's behaviour is shocking" and your exemption is out the window.

replies(1): >>oliwar+GX7
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48. amiga3+YR7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-26 12:52:28
>>Brian_+Za7
> The police's job is not to recover ypur stolen lawnmower, it's to maintain order in general.

But here's the thing: it's often the case that the theft rate in an area is down to a handful a prolific thieves... who act with impunity because they reckon that any one act of theft won't be followed up.

I'd hope that in most jurisdictions, police keep track of who the prolific thieves/shoplifters/burglars/muggers are, and are also willing to look into individual thefts, etc., because even when it's the thief's first crime, there can often be an organised crime link - the newbie thief's drug dealer has asked them to do a "favour" to clear a debt, or such.

So it can be really useful to track down your lawnmower. Sometimes. And the police don't know if it's worth it or not until they do the work. I can see the parallels in this analogy to tax audits.

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49. oliwar+GX7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-26 13:42:08
>>amiga3+rP7
Yeah I see what you mean, that does seem oddly useless. And thanks for finding the correct section.

I'd like to say we could trust the implementation and enforcement of this law to make sense and follow the spirit of existing blog comment sections rather than the letter of a law that could be twisted against almost anyone accepting comments —for most people GDPR compliance enforcement has been a light touch, with warnings rather than immediate fines— but that's not really how laws should work.

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