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[parent] [thread] 47 comments
1. agumon+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-09-13 13:54:41
The shocking part is how new generation have a fully rational reinterpretation of all this, they call it "ethical sex". It's beautiful to them (probably in contrast to the boat loads of issues IRL social and intimate relationships can bring with them). And anything not aligned with their view causes a lot of angry arguments.
replies(6): >>antime+O9 >>afavou+1b >>tivert+Gc >>mrgold+rg >>ethbr1+Wl >>throwa+es
2. antime+O9[view] [source] 2024-09-13 15:04:31
>>agumon+(OP)
Every new generation is worse than the one before them
replies(3): >>frogpe+qa >>Demiur+Vb >>kubb+Jc
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3. frogpe+qa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:07:51
>>antime+O9
Until there’s a great revival/revolution. Then we start over.
replies(1): >>double+jm
4. afavou+1b[view] [source] 2024-09-13 15:12:47
>>agumon+(OP)
The circle of life. People said the same thing about Playboy when it first came out, about Internet porn when it first came out… People have been “falling in love” with strippers for as long as strippers have existed. In many ways OF feels like a positive step because it allows the removal of toxic middlemen that stand between the model and their customer.

To my mind the bigger issue is how much of it is a total scam. OF models offshoring their DM responses so their clients think they’re having conversations with the model when it’s actually some dude half the world away. Or using AI for the same, which I’m sure is increasing exponentially.

It’s going to be interesting to see what happens when AI is able to generate on demand video/photo and chat that’s realistic enough to satisfy an online client. If people are specifically told it’s AI will they be content with that? Or will they still want an actual real human? We're not exactly rational creatures at the best of times so it’ll be fascinating to see. We’ll have gone from the phone sex lines of yore, where you are interacting with a real human even though they’re definitely not the human you’re imagining in your head, to an AI video chat where you’re seeing exactly what you want but there’s nothing behind it.

replies(7): >>ethbr1+ke >>chongl+ji >>deepsu+wi >>menset+Qm >>Tyr42+bz >>codeAl+NH >>golerg+kU
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5. Demiur+Vb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:19:02
>>antime+O9
Dtaisk Afai. Cof Lemma, 19:1, 2, 549-552 / https://www.jstor.org/stable/25414613

Let me first give you four quotations.

Firstly: “Our youth loves luxury, has bad manners, disregards authority, and has no respect whatsoever for age. Our children today are tyrants; they do not get up when an elderly man enters the room—they talk back to their parents—they are just very bad.”

Secondly: “I no longer have any hope for the future of our country if today’s youth should ever become the leaders of tomorrow, because this youth is unbearable, reckless—just terrible.”

Thirdly: “Our world has reached a critical stage; children no longer listen to their parents; the end of the world cannot be far away.”

Finally: “This youth is rotten from the very bottom of their hearts; the young people are malicious and lazy; they will never be as youth happened to be before. Today’s youth will not be able to maintain our culture.”

The first quote came from Socrates (470–399 B.C.); the second from Hesiod (circa 720 B.C.); the third from an Egyptian priest about 2,000 years ago; and the last was recently discovered on clay pots in the ruins of Old Babylon, which are more than 3,000 years old.

replies(7): >>hygget+7e >>ethbr1+qf >>knodi1+Ei >>bazoom+Ti >>voidma+jk >>bigstr+2v >>gershy+XT
6. tivert+Gc[view] [source] 2024-09-13 15:23:51
>>agumon+(OP)
> The shocking part is how new generation have a fully rational reinterpretation of all this, they call it "ethical sex". It's beautiful to them (probably in contrast to the boat loads of issues IRL social and intimate relationships can bring with them). And anything not aligned with their view causes a lot of angry arguments.

Do you have a source for that angrily defended "fully rational reinterpretation"?

I suspect the word for what's going on is rationalization not "fully rational reinterpretation" (e.g. "This is a thing we're doing, therefore it's good because we do it. Let's reevaluate everything else to achieve that result.").

replies(1): >>agumon+uy
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7. kubb+Jc[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:23:58
>>antime+O9
Please someone contribute the “bad times create strong men” meme.
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8. hygget+7e[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:33:20
>>Demiur+Vb
"It seems like nobody wants to work these days" has been a refrain since ancient Mesopotamia!
replies(1): >>Demiur+Hh
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9. ethbr1+ke[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:34:38
>>afavou+1b
> OF models [...] using AI for [answering DM responses]

This seems like OF's Etsy trap moment.

On the one hand, scaling creator:individual_fan multiples via AI assisted messaging = $$$ (to creators and OF)

On the other hand, it canabalizes their core business value tenet -- authenticity.

It'll be curious to see which path they choose, and if it ends up playing out similar to Etsy. I.e. temporarily increasing their revenue while erroding their brand, then having to tack back once they realize how dire things have gotten in customers' eyes.

replies(2): >>mrgold+Qg >>naijab+Zx
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10. ethbr1+qf[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:41:38
>>Demiur+Vb
I mean, all of those civilizations rose and fell, so there was certainly a point at which the productivity level was no longer sufficiently globally dominant.
replies(2): >>kurthr+kj >>deepsu+Fj
11. mrgold+rg[view] [source] 2024-09-13 15:46:59
>>agumon+(OP)
Every generation shockingly reinterprets things. Our generation "shockingly" interprets a mixed race couple kissing on TV as normal, instead of obscene enough to be banned.
replies(1): >>agumon+Jy
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12. mrgold+Qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:49:38
>>ethbr1+ke
Doing it with LLMs may be new but the idea of farming out the fan interaction to an army of gig workers plus automation is well established, including automation for suggested replies, keeping track of past interactions, etc.
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13. Demiur+Hh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:55:30
>>hygget+7e
That's probably why they call it work! :D
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14. chongl+ji[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:59:45
>>afavou+1b
removal of toxic middlemen that stand between the model and their customer.

...

OF models offshoring their DM responses

I mean this sounds to me like the toxic middlemen have changed form, rather than gone away. Now the toxic middlemen work for the performer, rather than the other way around. But they're still toxic and their toxicity is now directed at the buyer instead.

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15. deepsu+wi[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:00:53
>>afavou+1b
I think people would still prefer "real" content, same way as they prefer live streams to recordings for some reason (hey, handpicked recordings are objectively better!). Same way as people want "real wood", and "real leather", even when there're objectively better alternatives.

That said, people only need to _believe_ it's real.

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16. knodi1+Ei[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:01:20
>>Demiur+Vb
Firstly: The Plato quote is fake - It was crafted by a student, Kenneth John Freeman, for his Cambridge dissertation published in 1907.

Secondly: Hesiod was right, his culture no longer exists. ;-)

Thirdly: Yep, that quote is fake too. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/10/22/world-end/

Can't find any sources on that fourth one, but I suggest that the British Medical Journal might want to update their article.

replies(2): >>Demiur+ND >>emj+xZ
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17. bazoom+Ti[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:02:26
>>Demiur+Vb
The Socrates quote is certainly fake. Are the other quotes from the same source?
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18. kurthr+kj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:05:17
>>ethbr1+qf
That's the thing, everyone can be right here. You don't want to regularly yell "fascist, racist, pimp, rapist" or the power of those words disappears. At the same time, if you refuse to use the words when they apply, then their power is irrelevant. Stability breeds complacency, complacency breeds contempt, contempt breeds instability.

The Kids perceptions and mores change every generation (both in some multidimensional average and in their dispersion) based in response to their elder's beliefs and their material conditions. Those changes could be destructive or not, but the idea that "there is no truth" or we've reached "the end of history" mark a more dangerous part of the cycle.

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19. deepsu+Fj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:07:27
>>ethbr1+qf
Some historians say that the main cause for the Fall of Rome is rising inequality. Initially, society was mainly based on small farmers/warriors, doing war close to their home.

But as Rome grew, wars tended to get farther and farther from home, so farmers could no longer tend to their farms, and also large influx of slaves made them noncompetitive against large slave-owners. So they had to sell their farms to those large owners, exacerbating the problem even more.

I honestly don't know any single revolution that happened for any reason other than inequality.

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20. voidma+jk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:11:08
>>Demiur+Vb
Yes, your quotes' source is from a 1971 paper and I realize this source isn't much better than you saying otherwise, but it could be that the Socrates quote is not accurate - https://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher...

The Egyptian priest quote is muddied too - https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4923/was-this-q...

I wouldn't build an argument on them...

21. ethbr1+Wl[view] [source] 2024-09-13 16:21:10
>>agumon+(OP)
The younger generation has a weird relationship with the physical reality of sexuality, I expect because so much has been perfection-optimized in media portrayals of it, post-~2000.

If you go back and watch <= 90s movies and tv (PG-13!), it's amazing how pervasive and frank sexuality there is.^

In contrast to current mores that mandate sexy, but never actually talking about sex.

The deterioration of more honest discourse in mass media about realistic (read: fumbling, awkward, funny, vulnerable, spiritual) physical sexuality has left young folks ill prepared to enjoy that side of life.

^ Exhibit A: Hercules the Legendary Journeys (1994, produced by Sam Raimi!) S01E02, which would make most kids today cringe, despite just being scantily-clad depictions of consensual sexual desire and bawdy banter https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgz7burclcI

replies(2): >>throwa+Rr >>sss111+qy
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22. double+jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:23:22
>>frogpe+qa
Only 426,875 years of Kali Yuga left!
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23. menset+Qm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:26:45
>>afavou+1b
Marriage rates are down nearly 80% and it matches exactly the decline of births. So the slippery slope did work on reducing population growth!
replies(1): >>afavou+kd1
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24. throwa+Rr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 16:59:55
>>ethbr1+Wl
"Everyone is beautiful and no one is horny." https://bloodknife.com/everyone-beautiful-no-one-horny/

(edit: replace SEO spam blog with original host)

25. throwa+es[view] [source] 2024-09-13 17:03:05
>>agumon+(OP)
I'd be fascinated to see an ethnological elaboration of this concept, but nothing's turning up so far - not surprising, I think, but I wonder if you could point to something.
replies(1): >>agumon+7z
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26. bigstr+2v[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:22:29
>>Demiur+Vb
Veracity of the quotes aside, people always bust this sort of thing out like it proves that the current young people aren't so bad. But if anything, it convinces me that these historical figures were probably right! I can see, with my own eyes, how bad my own generation is (let alone those after me). So if that's the case, then maybe the ancient old guys were right in their cases as well.
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27. naijab+Zx[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:41:01
>>ethbr1+ke
Embracing gen AI is absolutely the wrong move for a content creators. People are not paying for visuals and conversations. They are paying for a genuine human to human interaction. If you take away that part, you’re left with worthless pixels on a screen
replies(2): >>ethbr1+BU >>tivert+4X
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28. sss111+qy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:45:02
>>ethbr1+Wl
There are shows made today that capture the realistic nature of it. White Lotus or Scenes from a Marriage on HBO are good examples.
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29. agumon+uy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:45:41
>>tivert+Gc
I wouldn't say rationalization considering the lack of experience of these teens. Lack of scope in life forbids this imo, hence my adhoc neologism.

These were redditors that were unhappy saying that being an only fan model is the laziest thing one can do. That's when they taught me about their concepts.

replies(1): >>tivert+iO
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30. agumon+Jy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:47:32
>>mrgold+rg
I don't think recurrences of this kind are an infinite line that can apply forever. Usually I account for the generational gap when thinking, even though it's something that may evade my mind.
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31. agumon+7z[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:50:12
>>throwa+es
Ethical sex? I couldn't talk long with the kids but I assume they took physical safety and freedom as only important aspect when approaching onlyfans. Teen girl idol can spread her legs if she wants to and no one can take advantage (unlike the pre me too era)
replies(1): >>throwa+jF
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32. Tyr42+bz[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:50:29
>>afavou+1b
You might be interested in the latent space podcast about using Ai to do exactly this, as compared to offshoring.

https://www.latent.space/p/nsfw-chatbots

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33. Demiur+ND[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 18:24:24
>>knodi1+Ei
Good to know, appreciate the review :)
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34. throwa+jF[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 18:35:54
>>agumon+7z
Okay, but what I'm really looking for is the account given by its adherents.

I want to hear in their own terms, because I genuinely don't know if I can understand the idea in terms of my own experience. I can make it make sense to me, sure; anyone can do that with almost anything. I don't have a guide to how closely that would correspond to the sense made of it by the people who actually pursue it. Third-party opinions don't actually count for much there, but this might also be too new a thing to have been studied.

I don't know. It seems to me like it would have to be terribly lonely and unfulfilling. But that might just be in comparison with my own pre-Internet experience, or maybe something I'm entirely missing.

replies(1): >>agumon+AQ
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35. codeAl+NH[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 18:52:34
>>afavou+1b
> In many ways OF feels like a positive step because it allows the removal of toxic middlemen that stand between the model and their customer.

Wait, are you intentionally ignoring the fact that OF is the middleman? Because it definitely is, making about 1 billion dollars off of 5 billion dollars of transactions. Or are you saying OF is a "good non-toxic middleman".

replies(2): >>afavou+Bd1 >>not2b+ve1
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36. tivert+iO[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 19:35:38
>>agumon+uy
> I wouldn't say rationalization considering the lack of experience of these teens. Lack of scope in life forbids this imo, hence my adhoc neologism.

Can you explain that more? In my mind anyone can rationalize their behavior ("a way of describing, interpreting, or explaining something (such as bad behavior) that makes it seem proper, more attractive, etc.", https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rationalization), so no experience is required. Even preschoolers can do it.

> These were redditors that were unhappy saying that being an only fan model is the laziest thing one can do. That's when they taught me about their concepts.

Do you have the thread? Or can you give more context? Were they OnlyFans models? Were they subscribers defending their participation?

replies(1): >>agumon+6Q
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37. agumon+6Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 19:49:19
>>tivert+iO
Then call it rationalization if you think that it fits. But afaik they were not even trying to paint it as attractive, they felt sincerely in a belief that this was a great new invention that freed people.

Hmm I doubt I could find the link unless I dug my last year reddit history comment by comment. I think these were dudes defending girl models decisions.

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38. agumon+AQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 19:53:18
>>throwa+jF
Fair points. If I may add my own perception of their reality, these are often nymph like teen which maps the usual boy feminine ideal.. so instead of fantasizing about it in comics or animes they have real ones behind screens to interact / drool / peep on, which is also a very boy like mindset. Later on your understanding of beauty, love, relationship evolves beyond that thin layer. It's their neverending christmas.
replies(1): >>throwa+T71
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39. gershy+XT[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 20:21:26
>>Demiur+Vb
On the matter of holistic degradation with each generation I always think about american presidential debates from several decades ago which, to me, offer irrefutable evidence of an older society with greater command of speech, wit, rationality, temper, etc. What do you think?
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40. golerg+kU[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 20:24:27
>>afavou+1b
I've explored using LLMs for this exact purpose, and there's a huge problem. Onlyfans rules very strictly forbid incest and other kinds of icky content, and Onlyfans sexters are very, very aware of this. If you break the rules, Onlyfans is very eager with permabans, and getting your account banned effectively destroys your whole business.

When it's that easy to screw up, it's easier and cheaper to pay real humans $1k a month for sexting than to build an LLM-based system that never makes mistakes and is 100% secured against prompt injection.

replies(1): >>HappMa+9e1
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41. ethbr1+BU[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 20:26:48
>>naijab+Zx
It's a weird set of game outcomes though.

If it's not done, then creators have a fundamental time cap to the amount of personalized content they can create.

If it's done, but users don't know about it, then creators increase their revenue several times.

If it's done, but users do know about it, then creators lose several multiples of revenue.

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42. tivert+4X[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 20:45:07
>>naijab+Zx
> Embracing gen AI is absolutely the wrong move for a content creators. People are not paying for visuals and conversations. They are paying for a genuine human to human interaction. If you take away that part, you’re left with worthless pixels on a screen

If people are going to a porn site to spend relatively small amounts of money to get "genuine human to human interaction," there are more than a few flaws in their strategy. Unless they're spending many thousands of dollars a month, there could be no reasonable expectation they're getting anything but extremely superficial interactions. If they get mad because they think they should get an e-girlfriend for $10 a month or whatever, I'd say that's on them because of unreasonable expectations.

Honestly, I think gen AI is pretty much inevitable for these kinds of parasocial services, but it will be clandestinely used because otherwise it makes perfect sense for the "content creator." Whatever relationship they think they have is an illusion in their head anyway, and they're probably expending a fair amount of energy to maintain it.

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43. emj+xZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 21:03:41
>>knodi1+Ei
> Hesiod was right, his culture no longer exists. ;-)

Hesoid lived when ancient greece got started what followed was 6 centuries of Greek dominance in the mediterranean region. :-)

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44. throwa+T71[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 22:04:04
>>agumon+AQ
That's certainly a perspective.
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45. afavou+kd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 22:56:18
>>menset+Qm
I’d you’re suggesting marriage rates are down because of porn I’m going to throw a [citation needed] on there.
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46. afavou+Bd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 22:58:56
>>codeAl+NH
I don’t know the ins and outs (pun intended) of Onlyfans but it certainly seems considerably less toxic than a lot of pornography producers, based on past stories I’ve read. If your numbers are correct a 20% take is orders of magnitude better than previous arrangements.
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47. HappMa+9e1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 23:08:28
>>golerg+kU
.. or gen the LLM content and have a human swipe away the rule-breaking content. .. and if you don't then whoever you farm out to will.
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48. not2b+ve1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 23:12:47
>>codeAl+NH
If OnlyFans is taking a 20% cut and Apple is taking a 30% cut of transactions on their platform, it seems that Apple is 50% more toxic than OnlyFans.

I've never done business with them and am not interested in buying that kind of content, but it certainly seems like an improvement over any more traditional sex-related work for those who are interested in being in that market.

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