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[parent] [thread] 33 comments
1. derefr+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-08-17 15:47:18
China was actually trying to heavily establish offshoring in the Philippines—but that has seemingly dried up with the increasing South China Sea tensions.
replies(4): >>alephn+w1 >>marcos+B4 >>petre+ZH >>fspeec+mO
2. alephn+w1[view] [source] 2024-08-17 16:00:31
>>derefr+(OP)
Same with India before 2020 - China used to be India's largest FDI partner before the Galwan crisis.

After that, the Indian government "persuaded" Chinese players to sell off their Indian assets to Indian, Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese, and American players instead.

4 years later, the GlobalTimes - which was extremely provocative against India - has started pushing out content arguing that India should begin reopening it's economy to Chinese players.

replies(1): >>Gibbon+FA
3. marcos+B4[view] [source] 2024-08-17 16:26:22
>>derefr+(OP)
Looks like militarism and imperialism are not compatible at that crazy new 21th century world.

IMO, that's a good development. I hope it lasts.

replies(3): >>ein0p+Tl >>uoaei+fr >>lenkit+221
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4. ein0p+Tl[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 18:25:03
>>marcos+B4
Uh, and what would that mean for the United States? China hasn’t been at war with anyone for decades.
replies(1): >>dalius+ds
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5. uoaei+fr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:01:23
>>marcos+B4
The US government has put a lot of effort into isolating China from the Phillippines. It's just statecraft and covert influence campaigns, nothing to do with the moral supremacy of anti-imperialism.

Moralizing arguments such as this one are FUD.

replies(7): >>dareal+os >>BobbyJ+qs >>greyw+8t >>fdscho+Pt >>quohor+Qt >>aragon+9u >>c_o_n_+re5
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6. dalius+ds[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:11:44
>>ein0p+Tl
Militarism and imperialism is not about wars only
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7. dareal+os[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:13:04
>>uoaei+fr
totally agree, you have to so naive to believe it's not US gov's influence that's maneuvering this behind the scene, just like in Japan, South Korea and other China's neighboring countries.
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8. BobbyJ+qs[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:13:39
>>uoaei+fr
So tensions between China and the Philippines have nothing to do with China's actions and are just the U.S. performing a psyop?
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9. greyw+8t[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:19:11
>>uoaei+fr
Or maybe its just that china demands all of south china sea for itself up to the phillipine coast. Ah no that must be the fault of the USA too! /s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_South_China_Se...

replies(2): >>fdscho+8u >>humanl+Np1
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10. fdscho+Pt[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:24:48
>>uoaei+fr
This comment ignores the facts of Chinese naval activities that many of their neighbors, including the Philippines, are wary of. You can say that US diplomacy is taking advantage of these facts in a way you don't like, but pretending the facts do not exist makes it necessary for people who do know them to ignore you.
replies(1): >>uoaei+MH2
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11. quohor+Qt[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:24:52
>>uoaei+fr
> It's just statecraft and covert influence campaigns

I'm sure that has something to do with it, but such campaigns are catalyzed by china's military aggression in the south pacific. Morality is an afterthought.

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12. fdscho+8u[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:27:21
>>greyw+8t
It's almost as if they're making their comments from a place where they are unable to read about these Chinese Navy military activities.
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13. aragon+9u[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 19:27:23
>>uoaei+fr
This is just one example that's come to light, as reported by Reuters:

https://archive.is/ZlCmK

Note:

> Unlike earlier psyop missions, which sought specific tactical advantage on the battlefield, the post-9/11 operations hoped to create broader change in public opinion across entire regions.

> ...

> Nevertheless, the Pentagon’s clandestine propaganda efforts are set to continue. In an unclassified strategy document last year, top Pentagon generals wrote that the U.S. military could undermine adversaries such as China and Russia using “disinformation spread across social media, false narratives disguised as news, and similar subversive activities [to] weaken societal trust by undermining the foundations of government.”

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14. Gibbon+FA[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 20:19:25
>>alephn+w1
I swear a lot of wars get started by guys like Xi who after seizing power internally try to seize power externally and it often ends really really badly for the host country.

Seriously, the leader of Germany in the 1930's, Stalin, Putin, Saddam Hussein, now Xi. All seized power domestically and then couldn't help themselves when it came to neighboring countries.

replies(3): >>para_p+wC >>zaphir+yH1 >>Diogen+Mxd
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15. para_p+wC[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 20:34:22
>>Gibbon+FA
Obviously this is heated topic, but did it ends really bad for USSR under Stalin rule (until his death)? I mean it was bad for many citizens but other areas were actually ok-ish considering war destructions.

I’m not trying to make point about Stalin. Just trying to find if this is really a rule, but my historical knowledge is pretty limited. Intuitively I feel any overpowered political entity end up like shit. But interesting to see real data.

replies(3): >>hkpack+aH >>petre+vL >>antifa+qo5
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16. hkpack+aH[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 21:16:16
>>para_p+wC
Of course it was bad. But the point was about starting wars.

Stalin did start many wars, disastrous invasion of Finland, invasion of Poland, Molotov-Ribentrop pact with Germany and so on.

replies(1): >>Gibbon+tN
17. petre+ZH[view] [source] 2024-08-17 21:22:03
>>derefr+(OP)
Good luck with that. The Philippines has aligned with the US for some time and water gunning their fishermen doesn't help either.

They should try to outsource to their colonies in Central Asia instead.

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18. petre+vL[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 21:52:40
>>para_p+wC
If you ask the Russians the Brezhnyev rule was the best (stability, stagnation), with Stalin trailing him (won WW2, rapid industrialization). If you ask westeners, Khrushchev (space race, reforms) and Gorbachev (glasnost).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_Leonid_Brezhnev

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19. Gibbon+tN[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-17 22:12:33
>>hkpack+aH
You could imagine an alternate universe where Stalin gets dysentery and dies. The USSR tells Ribentrop to f'off. And then joins the allies declaring war on Germany when Hitler invades Poland.

Also I forgot to add Mussolini and his designs on Greece, Balkans, North and the Horn of Africa.

20. fspeec+mO[view] [source] 2024-08-17 22:20:34
>>derefr+(OP)
I've never sensed any real desire for China to offshore to the Philippines, given its military alliance with the US. Maybe they dangle the prospect from time to time to try to pry the Philippines away. They have much friendlier targets in Southeast Asia, with Thailand and Malaysia at the top of the list.
replies(2): >>aragon+uc1 >>Yeul+rA1
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21. lenkit+221[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-18 01:01:27
>>marcos+B4
> Looks like militarism and imperialism are not compatible at that crazy new 21th century world.

Are we talking about good old U.S.A ?

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22. aragon+uc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-18 03:39:12
>>fspeec+mO
Not only that, but the Philippines has a tiny manufacturing sector compared to other major SEA economies. [1][2] I wonder if grandparent was thinking of a different country.

[1]

> In 2021, the economic mix of the Philippine economy was approximately 61% services, 17.6% manufacturing, and 10.1% agriculture. (https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/philippines-...)

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_center_industry_in_the_...

replies(1): >>derefr+qd2
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23. humanl+Np1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-18 07:37:55
>>greyw+8t
quote with wiki, not the entire history, genius
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24. Yeul+rA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-18 10:27:44
>>fspeec+mO
A lot of people don't know this but one of the strengths of China is their huge expat community all across Asia.

When Dutch people arrived in what is now Indonesia in the 16th century they ran into Chinese merchants- the only locals who could keep up their mercantile endeavours.

replies(1): >>alephn+fQ1
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25. zaphir+yH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-18 12:19:33
>>Gibbon+FA
Is it me or is this one of those, only other people we don’t like do bad things.

You’d need to generalize the pop science to the British, French, Spanish and portugues empires then address the genocide of indigenous tribes by America, Canada and Australia

replies(1): >>Gibbon+AC4
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26. alephn+fQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-18 14:01:37
>>Yeul+rA1
> their huge expat community all across Asia.

The Nanyang community is not uniformly pro-PRC.

A massive portion of them have blood and political relations with HK and Taiwan, and the younger generations don't have the same level of attachment to China as older less educated Nanyang Chinese do.

You can see this in Singapore and Thailand, with Millenial/GenZ Nanyang Chinese who can't even speak Mandarin anymore and almost entirely consume Western media.

In Malaysia, PRC nationalism is stronger, but that's in reaction to horrid race relations between Chinese and Malays/Bumiputera due to policies like "Ketuanan Melayu", memories/experiences from the various race riots of the 1960s-70s, and also the insularness/otherness of the Chinese community compared to other communities in Malaysia.

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27. derefr+qd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-18 17:43:14
>>aragon+uc1
> I wonder if grandparent was thinking of a different country

Nope! I was speaking of offshoring mostly in the services industry, not the manufacturing industry[1]. Things like call centers (as you linked.) Chinese companies like BBK use Philippines call centres to serve customers in English-language markets. Which isn't at-all uncommon—the US does the same thing—but China hadn't been doing much offshoring of any kind until the last decade, and the little they have done has focused almost solely onto the Philippines.

There's also something that you might not exactly call "offshoring", but it's a related idea. It's a combination of "exclave-building" and "foreign investment": Chinese companies responding to increasing levels of Chinese tourism in the Philippines by buying up Filipino companies (most visibly in the hospitality industry, but also everywhere from construction to finance) and modifying those companies to cater more to Chinese-audience interests; then, within China, promoting tourism to the Philippines — and specifically to those cities they've built up a presence within — to increase ROI on those investments. From a Filipino perspective, this was kind of a virtuous cycle, as it resulted in a lot of money being pumped into their economy. But this too has now sharply declined.

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[1] But why hasn't China begun to outsource manufacturing yet?

AFAIK, it's because the Chinese manufacturing sector has so much inertia — so much built up talent, so much invested CapEx, so many local partner relationships, so many achieved efficiencies of scale — that even if domestic labor prices seriously rise within China, it'll take a long time before companies are willing to bite the bullet and invest in moving any of that.

And it's also a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem: if you first offshore some middle step of manufacturing, the rest of the manufacturing process would still be cheapest for you [with your existing China-based processes] to continue to do in China; so now you'll have to ship raw goods out to the offshoring country, and then bring processed goods back into China for finishing. And during that, you'll be in competition with "full-pipeline Chinese" companies that aren't bothering to do that.

IMHO I'd mostly only expect China to offshore steps that either exist at the beginning or end of a manufacturing process. Especially origination of raw goods, e.g. mining. Which would seemingly be the long-term goal of China's infrastructure investments in various African countries.

replies(1): >>fspeec+Us3
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28. uoaei+MH2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-18 21:42:10
>>fdscho+Pt
"Ignores" is a strong word, I did nothing of the sort.

The Phillippines has the opportunity to deal with their relationship with China themselves, or the US can whisper in the ears of its leaders to take certain actions, making promises to them that make the offer all but irresistible.

The way you framed your comment makes it seem like you think the Phillippines is what, too noble of a country to bend under US influence?

replies(1): >>fdscho+uG5
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29. fspeec+Us3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-19 07:32:07
>>derefr+qd2
The English speaking call centers are probably better described as service imports than offshoring. There are no English speaking call centers based on the mainland to begin with. English speakers on the mainland would likely find much more lucrative opportunities than working in a call center.
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30. Gibbon+AC4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-19 17:53:49
>>zaphir+yH1
I'm talking about particular types of leaders.
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31. c_o_n_+re5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-19 23:42:22
>>uoaei+fr
>The US government has put a lot of effort into isolating China from the Phillippines.

Let's not forget that some of China's isolation is self inflicted. China's nine dash line map, claiming 90% of the South China Sea, only drove their neighbors into the US's open arms.

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32. antifa+qo5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-20 01:53:03
>>para_p+wC
I think they just wanted to imply Xi was "like Hitler" and the rest is just filler ideology.
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33. fdscho+uG5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-20 06:01:12
>>uoaei+MH2
"Ignores" may or may not be a strong word, but it's certainly the most accurate one I can think of to describe what you did. You ignored it. As in you failed to account for what is called outside of China "the elephant in the room." Kind of odd that you find it triggering. It's almost as if you are not being entirely honest.
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34. Diogen+Mxd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-23 09:15:53
>>Gibbon+FA
Xi has been in power for 12 years now, and he hasn't started a single war yet. Meanwhile, how many wars has the US fought in the same timeframe?
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