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[parent] [thread] 43 comments
1. cosmic+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-04-29 15:54:41
> Anduril, a military contractor that uses NixOS, has repeatedly attempted to become a sponsor of NixCon, which did not go over well with the community

Something similar happened in the Haskell community, where some people called for Anduril job postings to be removed.

Nix is a software project, not a social movement. The goals of Nix are entirely separate from how the software is used.

I really like Coinbase's statement that is is mission focused (https://www.coinbase.com/en-ca/blog/coinbase-is-a-mission-fo...). Anything that isn't directly related to its mission is out-of-scope. I wish the same was true about software projects like Nix.

If you care about the way your software is used, then by all means, say it in the license! Of course, such software won't get used much.

replies(8): >>dilyev+A2 >>Pareto+53 >>Powder+56 >>pantsf+O7 >>colins+m9 >>Shrezz+5b >>marcos+xj >>bfrog+IX6
2. dilyev+A2[view] [source] 2024-04-29 16:04:06
>>cosmic+(OP)
It’s doubly funny with haskell considering the biggest haskell shop i am aware of has a lot of defense contracts
3. Pareto+53[view] [source] 2024-04-29 16:06:30
>>cosmic+(OP)
> Nix is a software project, not a social movement.

Upholding the status quo is a social (and political) movement, it's just the most popular and accepted one.

replies(3): >>zer00e+tk >>orthec+Fu >>lliama+yv
4. Powder+56[view] [source] 2024-04-29 16:17:31
>>cosmic+(OP)
The issue isn't whether Anduril can use the the software. They can.

This stemmed from whether they can publically attach their name to NixCon, which is fundamentally a social event.

replies(2): >>Cthulh+2e2 >>takeda+WHf
5. pantsf+O7[view] [source] 2024-04-29 16:23:52
>>cosmic+(OP)
It's wild to see how much hate Anduril gets from the same people who have statements supporting Ukraine in their READMEs or have licenses preventing Russians from using their software.

How can you demand support for Ukraine, but then get upset by the people who are meeting actual needs for the war effort?

replies(2): >>fabric+qb >>colins+Me
6. colins+m9[view] [source] 2024-04-29 16:29:20
>>cosmic+(OP)
> Nix is a software project, not a social movement.

everyone loves to assert that Nix is this or that. whatever label you fight to place it under, it's a product of some thousands of people. whatever it actually is, it's underpinned by something social.

replies(2): >>haswel+Vg >>sorami+Vp
7. Shrezz+5b[view] [source] 2024-04-29 16:35:56
>>cosmic+(OP)
There are a lot of people who will find their workplace being singularly "mission focused" a good thing, but 5% of Coinbase's staff announced that they'd be leaving within one working week of that post[1], and others followed shortly after. I think that shows that in a corporate environment, it's not possible to retain all of the best staff if you're very publicly burying your head in the sand with regards to social issues - particularly in the immediate aftermath of the George Floyd protests.

The author talks about the productivity losses rising from social-issue disagreement in the workplace, but it's rare that you can point to a press release from a C-suite employee and say "this specific document caused one in twenty staff members to leave immediately". The productivity destruction at Coinbase from that press release was enormous.

https://www.coinbase.com/en-gb/blog/a-follow-up-to-coinbase-...

replies(2): >>lliama+zx >>nrdxp+As8
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8. fabric+qb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 16:36:54
>>pantsf+O7
Anduril started by building tech to hunt poor people crossing the southern border of the US. Their CEO is a right wing extremist. How you can say this is the same as supporting Ukraine against Russia aggression is obviously telling more about you than about anyone else.
replies(4): >>ndrisc+1i >>pantsf+Gk >>buster+6u >>hagbar+Gs2
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9. colins+Me[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 16:51:37
>>pantsf+O7
hey you know i think cops aren't all bad, but when they knock on my door i still don't invite them in.

Anduril exists to protect the order. same as cops, only focused externally instead of domestically. but in a global project where people collaborate with each other as individuals, it's all the same. don't talk to the cops: you only stand to lose.

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10. haswel+Vg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 17:00:26
>>colins+m9
Every human endeavor is underpinned by something social.

I think it's appropriate to separate concerns and use categorizations to help us separate ideological goals from practical reality. Paper is also used to fight wars, as are a myriad of other goods and services that exist in a more or less neutral space.

There's an important and very large conversation to be had about what we do and don't think is acceptable use of technology and general goods/services, but issues like the Nix meltdown seem like misapplied frustration at how resources are allocated (to buying things used for war) and an attempt to solve that allocation problem by cutting off supply instead of addressing the allocation of funds at the root.

Clearly some people think this is a good tactic, but I question both the effectiveness and the net good of such a tactic when the slope required to implement said tactic is indeed a slippery one.

I would prefer that code I write is never used for purposes I believe to be harmful. But this is fundamentally incompatible with the OSS model.

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11. ndrisc+1i[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 17:04:39
>>fabric+qb
Of all the things to be upset with a "defense" company over, actual literal defense (as in border monitoring and sensors) is a funny one. That stood out to me in the open letter as well. Why not the weapons systems that are apparently "somewhere between an autonomous drone and a reusable missile"? Would people be as upset at Boeing as a sponsor, or would that just be boring? Would people be as upset if Google or Facebook were sponsors? Google of course runs a global surveillance network, and says they're proud to offer AI services to the DoD:

https://cloud.google.com/gov/federal-defense-and-intel

replies(3): >>fabric+qq >>pxc+sz4 >>nrdxp+ms8
12. marcos+xj[view] [source] 2024-04-29 17:11:58
>>cosmic+(OP)
Whatever organization they are trying to sponsor is very obviously a social movement, not a piece of software.

You can only sponsor people, not software.

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13. zer00e+tk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 17:17:50
>>Pareto+53
By that rational:

Do you eat food, drink coffee, chocolate. Do you avail yourself of modern pharmacology. Everything you do upholds a status quo of human suffering. You posting on HN is a political statement, from a place of privilege, by that rational.

It's a software project, dont make it political and it will be successful.

replies(1): >>Cthulh+ee2
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14. pantsf+Gk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 17:18:51
>>fabric+qb
> Anduril started by building tech to hunt poor people crossing the southern border Seems pretty inaccurate to describe the usage of surveillance drones as "hunting poor people". I believe drones were a mostly bipartisan approach to monitoring the border vs building a border wall / expanding the border barrier or whatever we are calling it now.

> Their CEO is a right wing extremist He's not an extremist? He's just a regular Republican. I'm legitimately curious why you think he's an extremist.

> How you can say this is the same as supporting Ukraine against Russia aggression Anduril has been directly supporting Ukraine with its technology since the very start of the war. You do realize that, right?

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15. sorami+Vp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 17:45:23
>>colins+m9
> > Nix is a software project, not a social movement.

I believe people say that in part because every political topic gets dragged into the community. Yes, there is a political aspect to everything, but that doesn't mean everything under the sun has to be dragged in.

Just take a look into some of the discussions that frequently happens in the NixOS offtopic Matrix channel. A small yet vocal portion of the community constantly brings up extremely hot takes on a broad range of topics. Anyone who objects are met with dismissal, condescension, and personal attacks.

Topics include:

* How tech companies should handle takedowns

Many of us probably already know how this is a very complex and controversial issue. But some folks advocate SESTA / SOPA like measures, accusing anyone who objects of supporting Kiwifarms and telling them to shut up.

* The use of the term "enshittfication"

A vocal member expressed annoyance and went into a long rant when someone mentioned the term. Apparently the term is a self-benefitting slogan for privileged folks because it wasn't popularized by someone they approved of. Fortunately, that didn't result in a argument because the other person immediately stopped engaging.

* AI use

In another case, someone who said they use AI was accused of supporting modern slavery. I'm somewhat skeptical of AI too, but this is just absurd. It really looks like the accuser was looking for a fight because "AI" could've been replaced with literally any other commercial product, from the clothes we wear to rare earth materials present in computers we use to write code. It's a modern day supply chain problem, not an AI problem per se.

It's one thing to express these opinions. But the aggression that followed in many of these cases is unacceptable. It seems to me that this constant cycle of hot takes and aggression is in no small part fueling this conflict even further. Like, supporting the same causes as the EFF can get you branded a right winger by very vocal people.

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16. fabric+qq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 17:47:29
>>ndrisc+1i
Yes I believe it's acceptable to be upset at any company that undermines democracy. That very likely includes most big tech companies, and absolutely includes Google and Facebook.
replies(1): >>ndrisc+7s
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17. ndrisc+7s[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 17:55:12
>>fabric+qq
I suppose what's interesting to me is why is no one (except maybe you) upset over e.g. this sponsorship list for LinuxCon:

https://events.linuxfoundation.org/archive/2022/open-source-...

with Google right there as a diamond sponsor and Meta as a platinum sponsor. IBM is also a diamond sponsor, and we've all heard about them and the literal Nazis (and the time they got a license exception for JSLint to be able to use it for evil).

Or perhaps the same people are upset over things like Linux sponsors, but everyone ignores them in that context?

The LWN article indicates 24 maintainers have removed themselves, which appears to be ~0.7% of the maintainer list. Were these people particularly impactful? Is there an actual crisis here?

I also don't really get it; are they going to use a different (worse) OS because of this? Or just stop pushing changes upstream for packages they care about (either staying out of date or maintaining a personal fork)? It seems like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

replies(3): >>fabric+5Z >>oivey+eO1 >>pxc+eA4
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18. buster+6u[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 18:04:26
>>fabric+qb
Hundreds of people die preventable deaths every year trying to cross that border. Exposure, dehydration, drowning, etc. If you don't know anything about where these people are you can't do anything to help them.

Even if you support open borders, this technology is essential.

replies(1): >>fabric+nZ
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19. orthec+Fu[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 18:06:46
>>Pareto+53
I disagree. I think of movements taking input and energy. It is an active and conscious effort to change something. Upholding the status quo is akin to doing nothing. It's not active; it's passive. It's not a movement, it's a stationary. The two seem distinct to me.

I tend to agree with you on a moral/culpability level: passive acceptance is doing something but I wouldn't call it a "movement."

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20. lliama+yv[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 18:11:45
>>Pareto+53
The mission of reproducible builds is a social mission that will bring good to the world regardless of whether other social goods are achieved.

Trying to tie that mission to other social movements is a strategic error that will more than likely cause Nix to fail in its primary mission while doing virtually nothing meaningful for any of those other causes.

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21. lliama+zx[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 18:22:30
>>Shrezz+5b
No matter how smart or skilled they are, people who spend an inordinate amount of time arguing politics (and dragging others into it) at work are by definition not "the best staff".

Having a narrow mission focus is the only way to retain your actual best staff.

replies(1): >>saulrh+lZ
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22. fabric+5Z[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 20:27:24
>>ndrisc+7s
You can be upset about something and powerless to push back.
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23. saulrh+lZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 20:29:22
>>lliama+zx
Not necessarily the case. Consider the possibility that strongly-held political beliefs correlate with software engineering skill, in which case it could easily be that a politically-active but superior engineer comes out ahead despite "wasting" some time on political issues. Yes, they're not as productive as a hypothetical engineer with the same skillset and no political beliefs - but that hypothetical engineer may not exist. Alternatively, consider that forty hours of dedicated software engineering may be beyond the capability of the human brain and that political arguments happen during what would be classified as rest and relaxation time if not for labor standards developed for physical laborers and factory workers in the 1930s. Alternatively, consider that most people work better with motivation, the belief that you are doing good is among the healthiest and most powerful motivators available, that maintaining such a belief requires continuous effort, that such effort would likely involve discussion, and that that discussion would almost necessarily happen at work. I'm not claiming that any of these scenarios are the case. I'm simply pointing out that they are possible and plausible, and thus it is not necessarily the case that an employee arguing politics at work is underperforming, either in relation to their own potential or relative to others.
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24. fabric+nZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-29 20:29:33
>>buster+6u
How many of them were helped thanks to Anduril products?
replies(3): >>buster+4y1 >>Cthulh+Zd2 >>pxc+VC4
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25. buster+4y1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 00:21:43
>>fabric+nZ
Nobody publishes statistics on this directly but we know that in recent years that the number of border crossers that have to be rescued from dehydration and heat exhaustion is in the hundreds per week.

Given that AST's towers/software identify objects of interest to CBP, it's probably safe to assume that number is high.

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26. oivey+eO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 03:20:42
>>ndrisc+7s
An even bigger irony is that one of major community moderators who is mad is an “ethical software engineer” working at Google.
replies(1): >>Cthulh+Od2
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27. Cthulh+Od2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 08:23:01
>>oivey+eO1
Be the change you want to see within companies. Of course, these companies can - and have - fire the activist employees as well if they become too obstructing, like the ones that were protesting Google Cloud doing business with Israel: https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/17/24133700/google-fires-28-...
replies(1): >>ndrisc+ab3
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28. Cthulh+Zd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 08:24:47
>>fabric+nZ
What is the purpose of Anduril's products; to help suffering migrants, to keep them out, or some other purpose?

I'm not convinced that a company named after a sword has good intent no matter how well their PR department tries to package it.

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29. Cthulh+2e2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 08:25:23
>>Powder+56
Exactly. The license of software and code is not the surrounding community and events.

Likewise, support or protest against various sides in an international conflict does/should not affect the code/software, but is a product of the people involved and their personal convictions.

HN runs on open source software, but the HN community is strongly opposed to certain things, as is their right.

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30. Cthulh+ee2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 08:27:12
>>zer00e+tk
Yet you participate in society. Curious.
replies(1): >>zer00e+ve3
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31. hagbar+Gs2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 10:36:22
>>fabric+qb
You seem to have swallowed the propaganda hook, line and sinker. Not every non-'democrat' is a 'right-wing extremist', they are just... not 'democrats'. As to the use of their products on the border that mostly speaks against those products given the 7+ million who have made it across those borders in the last 3 years - or maybe they are not used to 'hunt poor people crossing the southern border
replies(1): >>fabric+oF4
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32. ndrisc+ab3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 15:32:20
>>Cthulh+Od2
An employee isn't going to change Google to exit the mass surveillance and mass propaganda businesses any sooner than they're going to change Raytheon to exit the missile business. It's fundamental to what the company does.
replies(1): >>pxc+TA4
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33. zer00e+ve3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 15:47:02
>>Cthulh+ee2
Yes from a place of massive privilege, just like you, fellow hacker news user.

One that comes at the expense of 1000's of years of marginalized and disenfranchised groups. One that comes at the elimination of entire branches of the family tree.

It's a coin toss that you have neanderthal and densoivan DNA. Those ancestors that we raped and murdered off the face of the earth. And then did that to each other for 1000's of years...

Regardless of what political or social values you believe the reality is that no matter how you envision the world working we're going to have to get in line. Be that for food or iPhones. And a line means there is someone at the back.

It's poor form to complain about the millions of people in front of you when there are billons of them looking at your asshole.

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34. pxc+sz4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 22:59:34
>>ndrisc+1i
Because people die crossing the border, and the whole enterprise of militarizing the border and criminalizing unauthorized crossings of individuals is a historical extreme which has only recently emerged.

When its naming was honest, the Department of Defense was called the Department of War. It's that notion of 'defense' we should have in mind when we ask whether the 'defense' industry should have a role in policing the border.

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35. pxc+eA4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 23:05:52
>>ndrisc+7s
> The LWN article indicates 24 maintainers have removed themselves, which appears to be ~0.7% of the maintainer list. Were these people particularly impactful? Is there an actual crisis here?

Maybe a handful of them. One of them was an extremely prolific (#3 contributor to Nixpkgs) and active contributor that no doubt everyone will miss. There's at least one other name I recognize on the list. But most of them are pretty small-time maintainers so far.

> I also don't really get it; are they going to use a different (worse) OS because of this?

They're saying they're going to fork. There's one fork emerging already, but idk if it'll be the one. I hope a productive and usable fork does arise (and that eventually it can rejoin Nix) but I'm pessimistic that any will survive.

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36. pxc+TA4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 23:12:19
>>ndrisc+ab3
The relevant comment is misinformed. The person they're referring to without naming is Irene Knapp, who left Google (presumably over her qualms). She's named in some press articles about the Google walkouts in 2020, e.g.: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/02/18/magazine/goog...
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37. pxc+VC4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 23:30:18
>>fabric+nZ
The way this actually works is that militarization occurs most heavily in geographically favorable parts of the border, so that the least surveilled parts are the most physically dangerous to cross. In this way, increased technological sophistication at the border increases the number of deaths in border crossings.

Border Patrol isn't out there rescuing thirsty migrants. In fact, they're known for destroying life-saving water caches and brutalizing activists who try to provide water or medical aid to people wandering that part of the desert.

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38. fabric+oF4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-04-30 23:50:13
>>hagbar+Gs2
People who donate to Trump are not just non-democrats. Stop your bullshit.
replies(1): >>hagbar+tZ5
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39. hagbar+tZ5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-01 13:33:39
>>fabric+oF4
First: shouting insults does not make your argument stronger, it merely suggests a lack of content.

People who donate to Trump are mostly people who are fed up with the way the USofA is being run by the current incumbent, i.e. they are people who are fed up with the bullshit. The mere fact that you don't like Trump as a person does not make those people non-'democrats' (you forgot the quotes around that word, 'democrats'). The type of rhetoric you're spouting polarises the discourse and does nothing for the democratic (sans quotes) process. May the best candidate win, granted the choice goes between two sub-optimal candidates [1] but that seems to be the way things go in that/your(?) country.

As an aside, can you tell me what irks you so much about Trump's policies - not Trump as a person, his policies - which makes you think so bad of people who support him? I think it safe to assume those people support him because they liked his policies, not because they are enamoured of his personality. Now that even CNN - not directly a MAGA propaganda outlet - publishes that More than half, 55%, of all Americans say they see Trump’s presidency as a success while [r]egarding Biden’s presidency so far, 61% say it’s a failure [2] there does seem to be a majority of people who support those policies versus the current ones.

[1] Biden being a long past hist due date habitual liar and grifter who has made his family profit wildly from his near half century in government, Trump being an egomaniacal billionaire who likes nothing better than to be at the centre of attention and is more than willing to let silly details like truth slide to get to that position.

[2] https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/28/politics/biden-trump-nost...

40. bfrog+IX6[view] [source] 2024-05-01 17:48:49
>>cosmic+(OP)
This is the FSF situation in a nutshell, gcc has slowly been eroding in favor of llvm and clang because of this.

FSF donor listing/sponsorship listing is... spartan at best.

Compare this to Linux Foundation and LLVM Foundation, and generally wide swaths of both corporate and personally interested parties contributing time and money and tell me that trying to be idealistic is good for FOSS. The evidence I see is to the contrary.

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41. nrdxp+ms8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-02 03:37:58
>>ndrisc+1i
Because virtue
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42. nrdxp+As8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-02 03:39:59
>>Shrezz+5b
Did you ever consider that public is horrendously misinformed on basically every "social issue" that arises, and it would literally do more good by just staying the fuck out of it?

It's just a fucking circus to prove to everyone on your Instagram how much you care. You really think people give a shit if it's true or not?

Let's take Gaza. Save the dudes who use babies as human shields. Destroy the universities if they resist! Ridiculous.

replies(1): >>johnny+8La
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43. johnny+8La[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-02 20:58:35
>>nrdxp+As8
That's not what most people believe though. I can both find Hamas's actions reprehensible and also think Israel has done terrible things.
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44. takeda+WHf[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-04 21:13:12
>>Powder+56
Right now they are not only attached to NixCon but Nix itself. People who hadn't heard about Nix now hear about Anduril.

Before this drama started I had no idea they even existed. Now I know they are a big Nix shop.

Those people who are creating the drama (and looks like they are a small minority) are trying to turn a tech tool into a social movement. This will kill the project.

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