zlacker

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1. epista+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-03-01 16:48:03
The defendant list is a bit bewildering. How usual is a corporate structure like this? Which, if any of these, is the nonprofit?

  OPENAI, INC., a corporation, 
  OPENAI, L.P., a limited partnership, 
  OPENAI, L.L.C., a limited liability company, 
  OPENAI GP, L.L.C., a limited liability company, 
  OPENAI OPCO, LLC, a limited liability company, 
  OPENAI GLOBAL, LLC, a limited liability company, 
  OAI CORPORATION, LLC, a limited liability company, 
  OPENAI HOLDINGS, LLC, a limited liability company,
replies(6): >>zitter+K >>simonw+01 >>zumina+51 >>manque+12 >>Boppre+H4 >>hattma+45
2. zitter+K[view] [source] 2024-03-01 16:51:51
>>epista+(OP)
The organization consists of the non-profit OpenAI, Inc. registered in Delaware and its for-profit subsidiary OpenAI Global, LLC. (From Wikipedia)
replies(1): >>debacl+j1
3. simonw+01[view] [source] 2024-03-01 16:52:47
>>epista+(OP)
The NYT lawsuit lists the same organizations: https://nytco-assets.nytimes.com/2023/12/NYT_Complaint_Dec20...

According to https://openai.com/our-structure the non-profit is "OpenAl, Inc. 501(c)(3) Public Charity".

replies(1): >>epista+w3
4. zumina+51[view] [source] 2024-03-01 16:53:03
>>epista+(OP)
*defendant list
replies(1): >>epista+y2
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5. debacl+j1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 16:53:44
>>zitter+K
A non-profit can have a for-profit subsidiary?
replies(10): >>blckni+J1 >>deaddo+Z1 >>manque+d2 >>jraph+p2 >>yanokw+q2 >>whimsi+F3 >>alickz+L3 >>Kranar+X4 >>biccbo+o9 >>jiggaw+dg1
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6. blckni+J1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 16:55:54
>>debacl+j1
Yes
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7. deaddo+Z1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 16:56:42
>>debacl+j1
Yes.
8. manque+12[view] [source] 2024-03-01 16:56:54
>>epista+(OP)
Depends on the sector, size and age of the corporation.

In crypto these kind of complex structures are fairly common ,FTX has some 180 entities. Real estate companies like evergrand have similar complexities.

Companies which do lot of acquisitions will have lot of entities and for accounting may keep them .

Consulting companies including the big ones have similar complex structures each business has their own partners who get a cut of the profits directly and pay only some back to the parent.

Hollywood also does such complex accounting for variety of reasons

Compared to peers in the AI space this is probably unusual, but none of them started as non profit . The only somewhat comparable analogy is perhaps Mozilla (nonprofit tech with huge for profit sub) they are not this complex, they also don’t have the kind of restrictions on founding charter /donor money like openAI does

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9. manque+d2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 16:57:44
>>debacl+j1
Mozilla has been doing that for 20 years ?
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10. jraph+p2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 16:58:34
>>debacl+j1
This would be the case of Mozilla (The Mozilla Foundation owns the Mozilla Corporation)
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11. yanokw+q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 16:58:35
>>debacl+j1
Yup! Mozilla uses this very structure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation
replies(1): >>timeon+MG
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12. epista+y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 16:59:20
>>zumina+51
Oops, that's a bit embarrassing! Thanks for the correction.
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13. epista+w3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:03:37
>>simonw+01
Thanks, that's very helpful, I had not seen the diagram on OpenAI's website before.

It explains at least three of the entities, but I do wonder about the purpose of some of the other entities. For example, a limited partnership is quite odd to have hanging around, I'm wondering what part it plays here.

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14. whimsi+F3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:04:45
>>debacl+j1
yes, common and why not? i dont think most people here know what non profits are or actually do
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15. alickz+L3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:05:12
>>debacl+j1
I had the same question: >>38332460

Apparently a non-profit can own all the shares of a for-profit

16. Boppre+H4[view] [source] 2024-03-01 17:10:43
>>epista+(OP)
Probably not common, since that aspect is part of the complaint. See "E. OpenAI’s Shifting Corporate Structure":

> 70. In the years following the announcement of the OpenAI, L.P., OpenAI’s corporate structure became increasingly complex.

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17. Kranar+X4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:11:52
>>debacl+j1
Absolutely, Mozilla is another relevant example where the Mozilla Foundation is a non-profit that owns the Mozilla Corporation, which is for-profit. Furthermore many non-profits also buy shares of for-profit corporations, for example the Gates Foundation owns a large chunk of Microsoft.

You can imagine a non-profit buying enough shares of a for-profit company that it can appoint the for-profit company's board of directors, at which point it's a subsidiary.

Heck a non-profit is even allowed and encouraged to make a profit. There are certainly rules about what non-profits can and can't do, but the big rule is that a non-profit can't distribute its profits, ie. pay out a dividend. It must demonstrate that their expenditures support their tax exempt status, but the for-profit subsidiary is more than welcome to pay out dividends or engage in activities that serve private interests.

18. hattma+45[view] [source] 2024-03-01 17:12:32
>>epista+(OP)
It's incredibly common, there are probably even more but these are the most asset rich companies. If properly structured even something like a local gym is going to be 6-8 entities. I took multiple entire classes dedicated to corporate structure. Multiple entities are needed to maximize liability protection and tax avoidance purposes.
replies(1): >>SahAss+Iy
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19. biccbo+o9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 17:29:18
>>debacl+j1
why doesn't everyone do this? take all that sweet investor money without having to give anything then have a for profit subsidiary....
replies(1): >>deaddo+3N
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20. SahAss+Iy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 19:28:09
>>hattma+45
> If properly structured even something like a local gym is going to be 6-8 entities.

Can you explain that? It seems outrageous to me.

replies(1): >>154573+ET1
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21. timeon+MG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 20:13:13
>>yanokw+q2
Even better example is IKEA.
replies(1): >>nicce+vg1
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22. deaddo+3N[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-01 20:51:17
>>biccbo+o9
Because most corporate investments aren't managed by complete morons.

This works when there's an obvious non-profit that has a monetizable product. The latter conflicts with the former, so it requires a disconnect. Meanwhile, if Apple tried to do the same, investors would look at that as obviously shady. In addition, non-profits are more heavily restricted by the government.

Lastly, you can't just "take the money" and "do what you want"; fraud, malfeasance, fiduciary responsibility (in the corporate entity), etc still exist. It's not some magic get out of jail free card.

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23. jiggaw+dg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-02 00:11:36
>>debacl+j1
A surprising one I came across was a group of government departments that collectively controlled a "shell" government agency that ran a non-profit that owned a for-profit Pty Ltd which had over 1K staff.

It was a "legal fiction" to sidestep union rules, government employment regulations, etc...

This let them hire IT staff at market rates, because otherwise they couldn't pay them a competitive wage as normal public servants working directly for the departments.

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24. nicce+vg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-02 00:14:02
>>timeon+MG
Wait, what?
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25. 154573+ET1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-03-02 08:03:42
>>SahAss+Iy
It's not true, and people claiming this are just trying to normalize these bizarre weblike corporate structures when in fact they're usually used to make a business law-proof in a way that's very contrary to the intent and purpose of the relevant law.

(If your local gym is structured as 6-8 entities you should probably not go there because you're going to be screwed if you injure yourself.)

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