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1. Tulliu+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-01-30 16:44:00
Crossposting from my own Reddit comment about the same article:

No, it's just that the policies aren't changing fast enough to match the drop in culture pressure/attitudes that used to push people to have kids (especially religious ones).

Major things that have pushed people to have kids:

* De facto retirement plan / can actually make you richer (sorta)

* Cultural/religious pressure

* Emotional personal reasons: you want kids because you want kids

Of these three, the first one is obviously not just gone, but actually reversed -- people don't quickly put their grade school children to work on the farm anymore -- and the second one has rapidly declined in the last century. To the extent people in developed countries have kids, it's usually because they just wanna, that's it. Maybe a bit of an exception for immigrant groups when it comes to cultural attitudes, but those tend to regress to the mean for the the country over generations.

Things pushing people to not have kids:

* Kids are extremely expensive in terms of money

* Kids are extremely expensive in terms of energy/labor/time

* Kids are an 18+ year commitment you can't really back out of

* And of course some people just don't see benefit to themselves (this is more a lack of upside than a downside)

Due to the first two things here, having kids generally results in a large change in lifestyle and even standard of living, usually a downgrade on the latter, with things like 'going out' or vacations taking a steep tumble in frequency and/or quality. Lots of jokes about this in parent groups because it's very true for most: kids are intensive and expensive.

The reality is that expectations for parents have never been higher, and if you look at childcare time, the amount of time moms and dads spend with taking care of their kids has gone up, even as the number of kids people have has gone down. People really expect a lot out of parents, people expect a lot out of themselves as would-be parents, and then they look at their material circumstances and how much kids would cost, and think: nah, that wouldn't work.

And for what? The entity that benefits most tangibly from more kids is not the parents, but the state, who wants more workers to keep that worker:retiree ratio solid.

Of course, there is a solution: if the state is the one benefitting in the end, let the state pay: make parenting a net zero financial impact for most families via larger subsidies to cover child-rearing costs. This would remove one of the major issues stopping people from having kids, and partially mitigate another one (to the extent that things like occasional babysitting might be covered).

Making parenting net zero on your budget is a radical suggestion that politically would probably be unpopular, especially among people who absolutely don't want kids: because NOT having kids is currently viewed as the 'smart financial choice', being financially equal with parents would likely be viewed as oppression. They would view it as a subsidy from a childfree lifestyle to a child-supporting one...which is exactly correct, of course, because currently the child-supporting lifestyle ends up supporting the childfree one when it comes time to retire.

Absent a change like this, it's hard to not imagine seeing more and more people avoiding kids as a practical choice: will having kids make you happier than just spending more time with existing friends and family? Uncertain, but it'll definitely leave you with less money, meaning likely less financial security. And of course, it doesn't help that things like homes are increasingly expensive, which means it's harder to afford more space that people reasonably want for their kids. The different components of inflation hit people supporting kids extra hard.

replies(6): >>Tulliu+k >>pjc50+t1 >>coldpi+g2 >>irrati+F5 >>ipaddr+zk >>thijso+Bk
2. Tulliu+k[view] [source] 2024-01-30 16:45:19
>>Tulliu+(OP)
A few common counterarguments and my responses:

Kids don't have to be super expensive!

This is true, but it's also true for most people they are. To make them not expensive, you have to avoid a lot of things that most people consider a normal, middle-class part of a regular lifestyle or a middle-class way of raising children. I won't dispute that there are probably smarter low-cost ways to raise kids, but we're talking about parents as they are and will continue to be, not parents as some idealistic frugality experts: people will want to pay for music lessons and for vacations to Disneyland. Especially if they were already taking equivalent vacations before they had kids.

Why should I have to pay for your kids?

Because collectively, people having children is what supports society, especially when it comes to people eventually retiring. If there are no more workers when it comes time for you to retire, society doesn't work. If there are not enough workers, society doesn't work well. The proportion of government budgets that different nations are paying out towards elder care via pensions and healthcare is huge and increasing because of changes in this ratio; the fewer workers you have, the more something's gotta give.

Can't we just use immigration?

This actually isn't a horrible idea, it's just that this is likely only a temporary solution, for one simple reason: birth rates are low or dropping nearly everywhere now. You can only take the excess youth from other countries for so long before that won't really work anymore. Eventually, it'll be shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, especially as more and more developing or previously-developing countries improve their own economic situations.

There are also possible issues with cultural integration of immigrants, but I don't disagree that using immigration as part of the solution is a good idea at least for a while (and certainly, some countries already do this; the US has been below replacement rate for a while but has still had an increasing population).

What about robots doing all our work so we don't need workers?

In the sufficiently long term, yes that might work, we might get fully automated luxury communism (I'm certainly not against the idea). It's just that

a) We don't know how long it'll take until we actually have robots capable of doing all the basic things you need in a society like growing food, constructing buildings, practicing medicine, teaching people things, etc. and also

b) So far, humanity has done an awesome job of basically making up new jobs that require humans every time we get rid of existing jobs that require humans. The number of people we need to grow food has collapsed, the number of people we need for industrial production per unit of <thing> has steadily been decreasing for a long time, and yet somehow we keep coming up with more jobs for people to do, new ideas of what counts as a necessity (your great great grandparents probably didn't consider individual therapy to be one).

replies(2): >>marcos+V3 >>nickd2+R8
3. pjc50+t1[view] [source] 2024-01-30 16:50:21
>>Tulliu+(OP)
> Making parenting net zero on your budget is a radical suggestion that politically would probably be unpopular, especially among people who absolutely don't want kids: because NOT having kids is currently viewed as the 'smart financial choice', being financially equal with parents would likely be viewed as oppression. They would view it as a subsidy from a childfree lifestyle to a child-supporting one...which is exactly correct, of course, because currently the child-supporting lifestyle ends up supporting the childfree one when it comes time to retire.

Exactly. For years there's been all kinds of shaming of poor mothers. It's drilled into people that being a parent when you aren't financially independent is a bad choice. Not really surprising that people don't want to take that on if they don't have to. Parenting isn't all that popular in the broader political discourse sphere.

4. coldpi+g2[view] [source] 2024-01-30 16:53:11
>>Tulliu+(OP)
Agree with all this. I think the lowered birthrate is all explained by the accessibility & acceptability of birth control. Before birth control, if you didn't want to have kids, you had to be celibate, which uh no, thanks. So lots of people had kids whether they wanted them or not. Now that we have a choice, we're finding many people just choose not to.

If this is a problem that we want to solve, then the solution IMO is to treat child rearing as the full-time job that it is. I don't mean subsidies or tax breaks, I'm talking a full $70k/year salary for the job of Being A Parent. As a childless person myself, I would support this.

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5. marcos+V3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 16:59:35
>>Tulliu+k
> To make them not expensive, you have to avoid a lot of things that most people consider a normal, middle-class part of a regular lifestyle or a middle-class way of raising children.

Well, you can make the middle-class lifestyle affordable.

It's not Disney vacations that make people give-up on childbirth. It's housing and schooling.

replies(1): >>Tulliu+ms3
6. irrati+F5[view] [source] 2024-01-30 17:06:15
>>Tulliu+(OP)
> Major things that have pushed people to have kids

What about evolutionary pressure - the biological impulse? Or, are we humans post-evolution and have overridden the innate impulse to reproduce?

replies(3): >>toomuc+K6 >>Tulliu+eb >>kwere+RJ2
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7. toomuc+K6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 17:10:14
>>irrati+F5
Robust access to contraceptives allows for the act without the burden of the result (if undesired).

https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-...

https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#contraception

replies(1): >>irrati+kb
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8. nickd2+R8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 17:18:15
>>Tulliu+k
Couple of thoughts. (1) To me, immigration can indeed fill the gap. An endless supply of people wish to leave poorer , or hotter (which is a problem with climate change) countries, for richer ones. This will hurt the poorer countries that end up with an ageing population. OTOH if those poorer countries are becoming too hot to live in, that's a good move for people , although awful for those left behind. (2) Cost of raising kids - in my experience the richer people are the more they seem to worry. Maybe those of us raised on less are simply used to being creative about getting by on less, and unfazed by the prospect. To use your 2 examples- music lessons can be had in many ways, often cheap/almost free such as joining a community music group where people will pass on skills. Disneyland - hardly essential, or any form of hardship for a child to miss out on that, IMHO. There are many ways to have a meaningful life, get plenty of education etc, without spending a fortune. While housing has gone up a lot, my parents' generation will say that in the past there were housing booms too, followed by super high interest rates, and everything else used to take relatively more of income, including food and clothes. A difference then was public transport was better in many ways and cheaper, so a car not as essential. I think the main difference now is peoples' expectations. Since the planet can't sustain ever-increasing consumption habits, probably its a good thing people are having less kids.
replies(1): >>Tulliu+Ua
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9. Tulliu+Ua[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 17:26:52
>>nickd2+R8
As I pointed out already, it is not in fact endless, and most of those poorer countries are steadily becoming richer. South Korea used to be poor as shit, not so much anymore. Eastern Europe has improved massively, parts of it have caught up to parts of Western Europe. China isn't nearly as poor as it was a few decades ago either.
replies(1): >>nickd2+we
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10. Tulliu+eb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 17:28:27
>>irrati+F5
Yes, that's the emotional angle I mentioned.

> Or, are we humans post-evolution and have overridden the innate impulse to reproduce?

Not entirely, but it it's absolutely common for many people to say they just don't want kids.

Also, the primary thing there is the inmate impulse to have sex, not reproduce. It's just that we've managed to disconnect sex from reproduction.

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11. irrati+kb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 17:28:50
>>toomuc+K6
Is the impulse to reproduce the same as the impulse to have sex?
replies(1): >>toomuc+sb
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12. toomuc+sb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 17:29:27
>>irrati+kb
What does the fertility rate and surveys of people of reproductive age tell us?
replies(1): >>irrati+7M
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13. nickd2+we[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 17:43:08
>>Tulliu+Ua
I was thinking of countries more like India and Nigeria, both of which, despite becoming richer and having lower fertility themselves, have populations projected to exceed China's, and both projected to become too hot to live in without big problems. Its not literally an "endless" supply, but its easily enough to cover gaps in the west. If fertility fell 75% in the west, could probably fill it with people from those countries. And that might be a win-win in certain ways. The west then doesn't have an aging population. People in too hot countries get to move. The suffering happens to old people left in poor hot countries, which is a sad thing. In the end yes you are correct its not endless, but this must be a very long way off.
replies(1): >>maxglu+4t
14. ipaddr+zk[view] [source] 2024-01-30 18:11:16
>>Tulliu+(OP)
I would add kids are a lifetime commitment. The relationship changes after 18, 21, 30 but still requires time/effort.
15. thijso+Bk[view] [source] 2024-01-30 18:11:30
>>Tulliu+(OP)
This is a radical idea, but I think what may happen eventually is that we figure out a way to incubate mammals, ie. an artificial uterus. Governments start to raise people like we raise fish in fish farms. Those people are now loyal to the state, that's their family. It's similar to an ant colony. Natural reproduction may be banned, or severely penalized. Many science fiction novels have explored this idea. I can see communist countries loving this idea.
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16. maxglu+4t[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 18:52:27
>>nickd2+we
I think endless supply of "brown" people is going to become limited supply of brow immigration because voices in rich western countries are not going to see that as win-win.
replies(2): >>nickd2+qw2 >>kwere+UO2
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17. irrati+7M[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 20:22:27
>>toomuc+sb
Well, the recent studies say nobody is having sex anymore, especially among the younger generations. So, people are not having sex and people are not having children. I’m not sure what that says. If people were having sex without having kids, that would mean something, but that isn’t the reality.
replies(2): >>toomuc+V71 >>CRConr+yb6
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18. toomuc+V71[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 22:11:08
>>irrati+7M
Consider asking Pew Research. info at pewresearch dot org. They have an "Ask the Expert" service which is equivalent to a research assistant for their corpus and methodologies.
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19. nickd2+qw2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-31 09:58:19
>>maxglu+4t
Do you foresee a massive upsurge in racism then? I hope not, and that over time people will become more sensible about seeing those who look different from them as simply "other people". In the UK, some of the most racist people are dying out and being replaced with people who are used to growing up in a multi-ethnic society and having friends that look different. There was some hoo-hah a couple years back when politicians wanted to stir up racism and the England football team was having none if it, they are a bunch of young lads of many colours who value each other equally, as it should be. OTOH unfortunately we now have right-wing politicians who themselves are non-white who are trying to stir up racism against people the same colour as them.
replies(1): >>maxglu+Zl3
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20. kwere+RJ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-31 12:04:13
>>irrati+F5
people in today world are disconnected from their "nature", we are made to be seminomad huntergatherers living in small tribes of kin. A lot of our wants are a surrogate of our biology, like the craving for sugars/fats. A lot of societal/mental ills can be correlated to such disconnection
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21. kwere+UO2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-31 12:45:25
>>maxglu+4t
human capitals in these countries is not distribuited the same as in the western world or even most of asia. Thats reality under the luxury belief that anybody can be "integrated"
replies(1): >>maxglu+8n3
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22. maxglu+Zl3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-31 15:45:14
>>nickd2+qw2
I'm in Canada and pro-immigration young demographics liberal leaning are starting to signal against immigration - too much inflows driving costs up (housing which I think UK understands). PoC right-wing politicians and if UK constituent anything like Canadian conservatives, it reflects lots of immigrant PoCs have, fuck you, got mine, attitude towards new immigrants. They didn't claw their way to the west from global south, to "suffer" mass inflow from global south diminishing perks of the west. They like their priveledge as well. Maybe we can sort out cost of living crisis that reduces immigration friction, but I suspect not, because the fuck you, got mine interests runs deep.
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23. maxglu+8n3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-31 15:50:39
>>kwere+UO2
Yeah, there's a upper bound to skilled labour production in developing countries unless they massively improve education, but that's also an enviroment correlated with better development and less outflows. But there's plenty of bodies, IMO not everyone has luxury to prioritize skilled immigration like Anglo countries (who themselves lose cream to US), and even Anglo countries might eventually have to settle for less skilled if what is needed is just bodies to keep economy growing. Even if productiity return is subpar.
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24. Tulliu+ms3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-31 16:15:50
>>marcos+V3
I 100% agree. Though even if those things were more reasonably priced, they would still be more expensive for people with kids. You do need some more space with kids to maintain the same standard of living, and most people prefer easier access to green space (yard and/or close by parks) when they have kids.

That's why huge subsidies to reach financial parity are probably necessary.

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25. CRConr+yb6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 14:07:22
>>irrati+7M
> So, people are not having sex and people are not having children. I’m not sure what that says.

Hey, there could be a connection here! Do we know where children come from?

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