zlacker

[parent] [thread] 57 comments
1. rkange+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:14:51
Do other people react as strongly as I did to the lack of capitalisation at the start of sentences? The post is generally "well" written with good grammar and punctuation so I find it strange - it feels like a style choice. But the style choice just instinctively makes part of my brain feel like it's written by a child.
replies(21): >>Hamuko+b >>vouaob+C >>Traube+m1 >>Max-q+o2 >>block_+w2 >>dml213+r4 >>jwmoz+C4 >>layer8+W5 >>bayind+m7 >>navane+w7 >>lawn+ld >>actual+Xh >>johnbe+oi >>carimu+so >>wavemo+3p >>fraaan+cp >>infamo+Ps >>aftbit+Gy >>jihigg+R01 >>sowbug+e41 >>WuxiFi+xI2
2. Hamuko+b[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:15:49
>>rkange+(OP)
Yeah, I don't really have the patience to read through uncapitalised text for long. Enough blog posts around to skip some of them.
3. vouaob+C[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:18:46
>>rkange+(OP)
I hate it with a passion and would never read any text without capitalization.
4. Traube+m1[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:23:09
>>rkange+(OP)
It's painful for me, apparently my brain normally uses the low frequency capitalised letters as anchor for "navigation" in big blocks of text.
5. Max-q+o2[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:27:52
>>rkange+(OP)
Yes! I didn't write a comment here about it, due to the forum rules, but I'm glad you pointed it out.
6. block_+w2[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:28:42
>>rkange+(OP)
not an e.e. cummings fan i take it.
7. dml213+r4[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:37:57
>>rkange+(OP)
Ha, that’s funny, I didn’t even notice.
8. jwmoz+C4[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:39:06
>>rkange+(OP)
Doesn't matter.
9. layer8+W5[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:44:53
>>rkange+(OP)
Yes, not using the Shift key has become somewhat of a modern disease. If nothing else, it's a lack of courtesy to the reader. I despise it.
replies(1): >>bombca+2a
10. bayind+m7[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:52:02
>>rkange+(OP)
My brain tends to self-correct what it's reading these kinds of posts, and considering the author of the post has replied to the comments here in the same style, I see two options for the style. It's either done for speed, or the shift key is mapped to something else, making typing one-off capitals harder.

That might equally be a stylistic choice, but I my gut says it's not.

replies(2): >>jynels+3b >>kevinc+iy
11. navane+w7[view] [source] 2024-01-17 13:52:52
>>rkange+(OP)
I didn't even notice. The structure of the post is very strong.
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12. bombca+2a[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:05:03
>>layer8+W5
This was the big realization to me why spelling, grammar, etc are important. It’s not that people can’t understand various modifications and incorrect writing, it’s that it is harder for them, so you’re basically asking your readers to give more of their time to save you a bit of yours.

And it’s especially bad in a blog or similar, where there is one writer and multiple readers. I spent maybe a few seconds on this post, but it will be read five, ten, fifty times. If I wrote the whole thing in text-message shorthand, it’d be stealing time from each of those readers.

It also helps people who do not have English as their first language if you avoid abbreviations and incorrect usage.

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13. jynels+3b[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:11:30
>>bayind+m7
my shift key is there i just have conscientiously objected to it
replies(3): >>bayind+8c >>layer8+mc >>dmorga+Ge
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14. bayind+8c[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:16:31
>>jynels+3b
Oh, hey! Thanks for chiming in. It's rare to see rejection of grammar rules on longer forms of writing, so it looked interesting.

Any special reasons? Just because I like to know people through their choices and views. Didn't want to sound rude in the previous comment, so if I did, genuinely sorry (non-native speaker woes).

replies(1): >>jynels+Hd
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15. layer8+mc[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:17:21
>>jynels+3b
It comes across as saying "fuck you" to your readers.
replies(1): >>drx+0f
16. lawn+ld[view] [source] 2024-01-17 14:20:51
>>rkange+(OP)
Yes, absolutely.

I feel it's in the same class as not using paragraphs, ignoring punctuation, or having egregious spelling mistakes.

It feels lazy and dumb, and honestly it taints whatever point you're trying to make.

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17. jynels+Hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:22:03
>>bayind+8c
two reasons:

1. writing in lowercase is freeing. it reminds me that grammatical rules are arbitrary, and by extension other rules. "you can just do things."

2. people who are pedantic about this when it's clearly intentional are probably not people i want to interact with anyway, so it's a good anti-asshole filter (https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/1209794.html)

replies(4): >>bayind+Hf >>prmph+qj >>coldpi+wm >>WuxiFi+0K2
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18. dmorga+Ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:26:32
>>jynels+3b
If we could beam our thoughts directly into each other's head, we would. It would be the easiest way to convey information. Alas, we don't have that ability, so we resort to the written word. If your goal is to spread something interesting don't make it more difficult for your readers by hiding your point behind a style choice that directly contradicts the readers' expectations.

Capitalization goes hand-in-hand with punctuation. A period is only part of the formula that tells a reader that a complete thought is done. Capitalizing the next letter is a signal that the next complete thought is starting. The reader doesn't have to continually guess whether the punctuation was incorrectly or accidentally placed.

I pushed through your style choice and read the article because what you had to say was interesting and important. But not all readers are going to grant you the same courtesy. If you really want the widest distribution possible do your readers a favor and capitalize things according to the rules.

You used paragraphs and correct spelling, as well as avoiding things like run-on sentences and sentence fragments. It's obvious you want people to your read your work. Whatever reasons you have for choosing to not use capitalization, those reasons are not as important as the message you are trying to spread.

replies(1): >>zozbot+4k
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19. drx+0f[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:27:33
>>layer8+mc
FWIW, not to me. Variety is the spice of life. It’s their blog, they should use whatever style they feel like using.

Besides, is lowercase poetry a fuck you to the reader as well?

replies(2): >>dmorga+Eh >>layer8+sl
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20. bayind+Hf[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:30:07
>>jynels+Hd
That's interesting take, thanks. I'd love to chat with you further on this issue, but this is neither the place, nor the time. Maybe I'll mail you about this in the soon-ish future if that's OK for you.

Cheers!

replies(1): >>jynels+9m
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21. dmorga+Eh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:38:38
>>drx+0f
Readers have different expectations for poetry than other forms of writing. We don't expect technical docs to be in the form of epic verse.
22. actual+Xh[view] [source] 2024-01-17 14:39:45
>>rkange+(OP)
HN guidelines has this to say about contents of your comment:

Please don't complain about tangential annoyances—e.g. article or website formats, name collisions, or back-button breakage. They're too common to be interesting.

replies(1): >>Uehrek+hx
23. johnbe+oi[view] [source] 2024-01-17 14:41:36
>>rkange+(OP)
I had to stop reading after second paragraph.
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24. prmph+qj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:45:09
>>jynels+Hd
Then wouldn't dispensing with other rules of grammar be even more "freeing"? This is both a genuine and rhetorical question.

I guess it's like user interface design, where a cardinal rule is to be conservative, and not break user expectations unduly.

Of course UI patterns and language evolves, but the evolution of changes should probably be gradual, and done for a justifiable purpose. In this case, I'm not sure the stylistic choice actually adds anything to the clarity or beauty of the writing.

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25. zozbot+4k[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:48:08
>>dmorga+Ge
OP might be a non-English language speaker. Many languages don't use capitalization at all. Some languages don't even bother to put spaces between words, it's all driven by context.
replies(2): >>dmorga+Qn >>freila+og3
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26. layer8+sl[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:54:23
>>drx+0f
This is not an art exhibition. Conventions have a purpose. Capitalization is not a random spelling quirk, there’s a reason why we have it. The upvote balance on my comment confirms that it’s something to consider. The “fuck you” was in reference to the author’s comment, not just to his blog post.
replies(1): >>esteba+bE
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27. jynels+9m[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:57:02
>>bayind+Hf
sure, i'm happy to chat more :) my email is on my website
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28. coldpi+wm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 14:58:54
>>jynels+Hd
You're going to get some strong/rude reactions from "the other side," which is unfortunate. FWIW, as a reader I do find it genuinely more difficult to read. Capitalization serves a purpose for me, it's not arbitrary. It more clearly separates each sentence. I have to put in more work to read your thoughts without it. Anyway regardless, the rudeness sucks. Sorry on behalf of others who feel as I do.
replies(1): >>jynels+tq
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29. dmorga+Qn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 15:05:23
>>zozbot+4k
But if you're writing in English, or really any language, you should attempt to follow the rules of that language, especially if you want wide readership. Grammar rules might be arbitrary, but readers learn those rules and expect what they read to follow those rules.
30. carimu+so[view] [source] 2024-01-17 15:08:13
>>rkange+(OP)
it feels like a "sad" melancholy tone by design. The OPPOSITE of all caps.
31. wavemo+3p[view] [source] 2024-01-17 15:10:12
>>rkange+(OP)
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I barely noticed. I thought so little of it that, after reading your comment, I had to first go back to the article and verify that it even was the case.
32. fraaan+cp[view] [source] 2024-01-17 15:11:06
>>rkange+(OP)

    In a comment on another Rust-related post, the author noted that, "rust definitely skews younger than average. i don't have statistics on hand, but almost all people i know working on the project are younger than 35, and a surprising number are 17-25."  
    I've messed with Rust a bit and I like it.  I like the ideas and lack of compromise.  But good ideas and a lack of compromises are what you get from youth,  along with the arrogance of style choices that make things harder to understand.  Will Rust stick around once these folks have bigger responsibilities?
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33. jynels+tq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 15:16:15
>>coldpi+wm
this is very kindly written, thank you :)

frankly i don't want a larger audience, i didn't expect this to hit HN. i hadn't thought about it being harder to read for people in the project though, i'll do a poll on whether they find it distracting.

replies(1): >>AlexAn+bU
34. infamo+Ps[view] [source] 2024-01-17 15:25:56
>>rkange+(OP)
If you can't get past the writing style, you're probably not a very successful person given your focus on complete non-essentials.
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35. Uehrek+hx[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 15:42:51
>>actual+Xh
Like many invocations of the HN guidelines: “interesting” is in the eye of the beholder and the amount of discussion prompted by this comment and upvotes it garnered would seem to indicate that this stylistic choice is in fact quite interesting.

The HN mod team may find it not to their taste, but they don’t get to decide what is or isn’t generally interesting.

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36. kevinc+iy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 15:47:56
>>bayind+m7
I also didn't notice until I saw this comment. But to be fair I did skim the article.
37. aftbit+Gy[view] [source] 2024-01-17 15:50:01
>>rkange+(OP)
Wow a lot of people have very strong feelings about this. Parent comment is fine but some of the replies are quite out there, calling this "arrogant" and "dumb". Let me provide my own opinion.

IMO content over style. Nobody owes you adherence to a particular set of rules, nor do they owe you their thoughts at all. If the writer's style is a bridge too far for you, kindly just close the tab, don't complain about it. Certainly don't use hateful words to describe them.

Remember, the same English teachers who taught you to capitalize also taught you that there is no singular "they" and that you should use "he/she" instead.

replies(4): >>layer8+eJ >>Rudism+uK >>tredre+KN1 >>WuxiFi+3J2
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38. esteba+bE[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 16:14:14
>>layer8+sl
This is a post in a personal blog that they wrote because they wanted to write it. Someone else came across it and pointed people outside of it's desired audience that it existed.

If I make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and offer it to my friend next to me, and someone across the street yells "How rude of you! I'm allergic to peanuts", I will just close the window and continue sharing sandwiches with my friend, not spend time arguing with the yelling guy across the street.

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39. layer8+eJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 16:35:01
>>aftbit+Gy
> If the writer's style is a bridge too far for you, kindly just close the tab, don't complain about it.

I sure hope we are allowed to criticize writers’ styles.

replies(1): >>nickit+NI1
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40. Rudism+uK[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 16:40:40
>>aftbit+Gy
I think that while authors are obviously free to make whatever stylistic choices they want, it's also valid for readers to point it out when those choices are so distracting that it interferes with the intended message of the writing (as long as it's done civilly). It reminds me of another recent-ish article that was posted to HN that used uncommon ligatures looping between certain letters, where a large part of that discussion was centered around how distracting that was.

As an author, if you notice that your style choices are generating more interest and discussion than the actual content of your writing, it's probably worth considering whether the reasons that led you to those choices are really worth taking away from the messages you're trying to convey. Seeing as how the author of this post chimed in here to call their use of lowercase an "asshole filter," I suppose it's clear where they stand on that question.

I can see a future where we'll have browser extensions that use generative AI to "correct" style and grammar of articles to match the preferences of the reader, at which point stylistic choices may cease to matter as much.

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41. AlexAn+bU[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 17:25:57
>>jynels+tq
Perhaps you could have a little button to programmatically insert capital letters?
42. jihigg+R01[view] [source] 2024-01-17 17:56:44
>>rkange+(OP)
i didn't even notice there was no capitalisation when i read the article

idk about the author, but when i was younger, some people's pedantry and pettiness over grammar / capitalisation / more casual chatting got me to switch sides and deliberately stop using it as much. now it's also an aesthetic preference

i think there's potentially a valid point about accessibility concerns, but blog posts, chatrooms, and internet comments are also very informal modes of discourse

replies(1): >>Hirrol+mb1
43. sowbug+e41[view] [source] 2024-01-17 18:11:56
>>rkange+(OP)
You can group these kinds of "errors of personality" to help understand why they might or might not bug you.

First: actor intentionally disrespected someone. Speaking in a movie theater, especially after being shushed. Using the letter "u" to mean "you" in formal business communication.

Second: actor unintentionally disrespected someone. Clipping your fingernails in class. Badly misspelling someone's name in a critical business communication.

Third: actor unintentionally makes an inconsequential error. Native English speakers misusing "it's" or "your" and their respective homophones, or missing antecedents ("As an expert, it's important to do X and Y" rather than "As an expert, I think it's important to do X and Y").

Fourth: actor intentionally makes an inconsequential error. Wearing obviously mismatched socks. Consistently writing in all lowercase.

The key, for me, is evaluating intent and impact. Group #1 is asshole: they mean to hurt or annoy. Group #2 is incompetent: they make mistakes that matter. Group #3 is hapless: they make mistakes that don't matter. Group #4 is quirky or aloof: they're not hurting anyone, and they're OK if people draw negative inferences about them, so hey, it's a free country.

You might reach different conclusions about the groups, or subdivide the groups further.

(Anticipating critiques of my examples: yes, I really do think that misspelling the English pronoun "you" is disrespectful. Misspell your own name if you want to move from Group #1 to Group #4, but please don't misspell the word that you're using to represent me. And clipping your nails in class is such over-the-top behavior that I believe it's more about upbringing than intentional disrespect.)

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44. Hirrol+mb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 18:48:37
>>jihigg+R01
Downvoted your comment because of spelling. Consider learning some English grammar.
replies(1): >>jihigg+Xg1
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45. jihigg+Xg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 19:16:34
>>Hirrol+mb1
^ exactly the type of person i was talking about. how is this considered anything other than troll behaviour?

also, there are no spelling mistakes in my comment. perhaps consider learning about how words are spelled in british english vs american english? :)

replies(1): >>tredre+GW1
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46. nickit+NI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 21:33:13
>>layer8+eJ
I mean ... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Please don't complain about tangential annoyances—e.g. article or website formats, name collisions, or back-button breakage. They're too common to be interesting.

replies(1): >>machom+uH2
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47. tredre+KN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 21:59:00
>>aftbit+Gy
> Nobody owes you adherence to a particular set of rules, nor do they owe you their thoughts at all.

What the hell? English has rules. If those rules aren't followed, it makes communication needlessly more difficult.

This isn't just a typo we're talking about. This is someone making a deliberate choice to be harder to understand because they see it as quirky and cool.

replies(1): >>abenga+z94
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48. tredre+GW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 22:46:49
>>jihigg+Xg1
> how is this considered anything other than troll behaviour?

You're exactly right, deliberately not using capitalization is akin to trolling.

Trolling is fun for the troll but it isn't that popular on HN unfortunately.

replies(1): >>likesp+pj2
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49. likesp+pj2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 01:03:04
>>tredre+GW1
> ...deliberately not using capitalization is akin to trolling.

This just sounds like a self-troll, if you really think this

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50. machom+uH2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 03:52:21
>>nickit+NI1
No capitalization is not a tangential annoyance, it is a major complain akin to complaining about a text written in one block (without anything distinguishing sentences and paragraphs from each other).
replies(1): >>aftbit+Vb4
51. WuxiFi+xI2[view] [source] 2024-01-18 04:01:49
>>rkange+(OP)
I admit it annoys me more than it should. It's harder to read, but easier to write. So it's easily interpreted that the author cares more about their convenience than about others. I don't like this attitude.
replies(1): >>rkange+Hi3
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52. WuxiFi+3J2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 04:05:14
>>aftbit+Gy
>> Remember, the same English teachers who taught you to capitalize also taught you that there is no singular "they" and that you should use "he/she" instead.

That is a completely different story. Using "they" is about respect. Using a standard form of writing is about making reading easier.

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53. WuxiFi+0K2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 04:12:10
>>jynels+Hd
>> so it's a good anti-asshole filter

Oh, that is really a screwed thought. You think all people that don't agree with your writing format are assholes?

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54. freila+og3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 09:24:55
>>zozbot+4k
thatsanonsensicalpointtomakesincethisisenglishandnotmongolian
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55. rkange+Hi3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 09:48:22
>>WuxiFi+xI2
This is close to how I feel about this sort of thing: the author can't be bothered to write properly, but still wants me to read it. But maybe that's a narrow minded view of the situation, due to my own biases.

I wrote the original comment because I wanted to get some view on how a (selection biased) part of the population viewed it. I was surprised by how emotional people got!

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56. abenga+z94[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 15:45:50
>>tredre+KN1
It seems to be something new generations are increasingly doing. I remember someone saying that he was texting with his gen-z child, and the child felt like properly capitalized sentences sound like they are formally chiding you. I've learnt to mirror whomever I'm talking to (e.g. on Slack at work).
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57. aftbit+Vb4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 15:56:10
>>machom+uH2
i strongly disagree and i think you do too.

whichofthesesentencesdidyoufindeasiertoreadhowcouldyoueventhinkthatinthefirstplace

replies(1): >>machom+Xl5
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58. machom+Xl5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-18 21:08:33
>>aftbit+Vb4
i said sentences and paragraphs not words not having punctuation is absolutely akin to not capitalizing after all new lines and dots are designed and are working together and in unison to when combined convey the important information information of separation of pieces of information ways of compartmentalization if anything capitalized words are more visible than dots
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