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1. soufro+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-19 13:22:25
But what about the legal responsability of Microsoft and investors there?

To explain, it's the board of the non-profit that ousted @sama .

Microsoft is not a member of the non-profit.

Microsoft is "only" a shareholder of its for-profit subsidiary - even for 10B.

Basically, what happened is a change of control in the non-profit majority shareholder of a company Microsoft invested in.

But not a change of control in the for-profit company they invested in.

To tell the truth, I am not even certain the board of the non-profit would have been legally allowed to discuss the issue with Microsoft at all - it's an internal issue only and that would be a conflict of interest.

Microsoft is not happy with that change of control and they favourited the previous representative of their partner.

Basically Microsoft want their shareholder non-profit partner to prioritize their interest over its own.

And to do that, they are trying to impede on its governance, even threatening it with disorganization, lawsuits and such.

This sounds like highly unethical and potentially illegal to me.

How come no one is pointing that out?

Also, how come a 90 billion dollars company hailed as the future of computing and a major transformative force for society would now be valued 0 dollars only because its non-technical founder is now out?

What does it say about the seriousness of it all?

But of course, that's Silicon Valley baby.

replies(6): >>bob_th+B1 >>nojvek+a3 >>emptys+t5 >>jprete+q6 >>s3p+Qb >>Racing+5o2
2. bob_th+B1[view] [source] 2023-11-19 13:35:36
>>soufro+(OP)
"Also, how come a 90 billion dollars company hailed as the future of computing and a major transformative force for society would now be valued 0 dollars only because its non-technical founder is now out?"

Please think about this. Sam Altman is the face of OpenAi and was doing a very good job leading it. If the relationships are what kept OpenAI from always being on top and they removed that from the company, corporations may be more hesitant to do business with them in the future.

replies(4): >>financ+W1 >>anoope+f3 >>soufro+a7 >>croes+we
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3. financ+W1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 13:39:17
>>bob_th+B1
The company still has assets and a balance sheet. They could fire everyone and simply rent out their process to big orgs and still make a pretty penny.
replies(1): >>solare+A3
4. nojvek+a3[view] [source] 2023-11-19 13:50:23
>>soufro+(OP)
No one is saying they are now valued at 0.

They are likely valued a lot less than 80 billion now.

OpenAI had the largest multiple - >100X their revenue for a recent startup.

That multiple is a lot smaller now without SamA.

Honestly the market needs a correction.

replies(1): >>manyos+w8
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5. anoope+f3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 13:51:08
>>bob_th+B1
> Sam Altman is the face of OpenAi and was doing a very good job leading it.

Its not like every successful org needs a face. Back then Google was a wildly successful as an org, but unlike Steve Jobs then, people barely knew Eric Schmitt. Even with Microsoft as it stands today, Satya is mostly a backseat driver.

Every org has its own style and character. If the board doesn't like what they are building, they can try change it. Risky move nevertheless, but its their call to make.

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6. solare+A3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 13:53:53
>>financ+W1
Loss of know-how is a risk. A vendor needs to be able to prove that it has sufficient headcount and skills to run and improve a system.

While OpenAI would have the IP, they would also need to retain the right people who understand the system.

7. emptys+t5[view] [source] 2023-11-19 14:08:39
>>soufro+(OP)
Highly unethical would be throwing the CEO of the division keeping the lights on under a bus with zero regard for the consequences.

The non-profit board acted entirely against the interest of OpenAI at large. Disclosing an intention to terminate the highest profile member of their company to the company paying for their compute, Microsoft, is not only the ethical choice, it's the responsible one.

Members of the non-profit board acted recklessly and irresponsibly. They'll be paying for that choice for decades following, as they should. They're lucky if they don't get hit with a lawsuit for defamation on their way out.

Given how poorly Mozilla's non-profit board has steered Mozilla over the last decade and now this childish tantrum by a man raised on the fanfiction of Yudkowsky together with board larpers, I wouldn't be surprised if this snafu sees the end of this type of governance structure in tech. These people of the board have absolutely no business being in business.

replies(2): >>soufro+17 >>l33tma+e8
8. jprete+q6[view] [source] 2023-11-19 14:15:56
>>soufro+(OP)
I think a lot of commenters here are treating the nonprofit as if it were a temporary disguise with no other relevance, which OpenAI now intends to shed so it can rake in the profits. Legally this is very much not true, and I’ve read that only a minority of the board can even be a stakeholder in the for-profit (probably why Altman is always described as having no stake). If that’s true, it’s very obviously why half the board are outside people with no stake in the finances at all.
replies(1): >>soufro+27
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9. soufro+17[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:20:26
>>emptys+t5
Except it's not a "division" but an independent entity.

And if that corporate structure does not suit Satya Nadella, I would say he's the one to blam for having invested 10B in the first place.

Being angry at a decision he had no right to be consulted on does not allow him to meddle in the governance of its co-shareholder.

Or then we can all accept together that corruption, greed and whateverthefuckism is the reality of ethics in the tech industry.

replies(1): >>emptys+I8
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10. soufro+27[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:20:38
>>jprete+q6
Exactly my point.
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11. soufro+a7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:22:15
>>bob_th+B1
Well, once again, then it's Satya's mistake to have allowed the representative of an independant third party entity become the public face of a company he invested in.

OpenAI might have wasted the 10B of Microsoft. But whose fault is it in the first place? It's Microsoft's fault to have invested it in the first place.

replies(2): >>Joeri+fa >>Turing+8c
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12. l33tma+e8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:29:42
>>emptys+t5
As a non-profit with the charter they have, their board was not supposed to be in business (at this scale). I guess this is where all of this diverged, a while ago now..
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13. manyos+w8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:31:39
>>nojvek+a3
SamA is nowhere even close to relevant to the value that OpenAI presents. He's def. less than half a billion and likely much less than that. What makes OpenAI so transformative is the technology it produces and SamA is not an engineer that built that technology. If the people that made it were to all leave it would reduce the value of the company by a large amount, but the technology would remain and it is not easy to duplicate given the scarcity of GPU cycles, the training data now being very hard to acquire and lots of other well invested companies chasing with the likes of Google, Meta, Anthropic. That doesn't even begin to mention the open source models that are also competing.

SamA could try and start his own new copy of OpenAI and I have no doubt raise a lot of money, but that new company if it just tried to reproduce what OpenAI has already done would be not worth very much. By the time they reproduce OpenAI and its competitors will have already moved on to bigger and better things.

Enough with the hero worship for SamA and all the other salesmen.

replies(1): >>bradle+R9
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14. emptys+I8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:32:37
>>soufro+17
> Except it's not a "division" but an independent entity.

This is entirely false. If it were true, the actions of today would not have come to pass. My use of the word "division" is entirely in-line with use of that term at large. Here's the Wikipedia article, which as of this writing uses the same language I have. [1]

If you can't get the fundamentals right, I don't know how you can make the claims you're making credibly. Much like the board, you're making assertions that aren't credibly backed.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_Sam_Altman

replies(1): >>manyos+m9
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15. manyos+m9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:38:04
>>emptys+I8
Hanging your hat on quibbles over division vs subsidiary eh? That's quite a strident rebuttal based on a quibble.
replies(1): >>emptys+ba
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16. bradle+R9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:41:35
>>manyos+w8
SamA is nowhere even close to relevant to the value that OpenAI presents.

The issue isn’t SamA per se. It’s that the old valuation was assuming that the company was trying to make money. The new valuation is taking into account that instead they might be captured by a group that has some sci-fi notion about saving the world from an existential threat.

replies(2): >>manyos+La >>underd+1c
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17. emptys+ba[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:43:23
>>manyos+m9
I'm happy to defend any of my points. The commenter took issue with one. I responded to it. If you have something more to add, please critique what you disagree with.

I will say that using falsehoods as an attack doesn't put the rest of the commenter's points into particularly good light.

replies(1): >>manyos+Ge
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18. Joeri+fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:43:41
>>soufro+a7
It depends on what assurances they were given and by whom. Perhaps it was Sam Altman himself that made verbal promises that weren’t his to give, and he may end up in trouble over them.

We don’t know what was said, and what was signed. To put the blame with microsoft is premature.

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19. manyos+La[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:47:05
>>bradle+R9
That's a good point, but any responsible investor would have looked at the charter and priced this in. What I find ironic is the number of people defending SamA and the like who are now tacitly admitting that his promulgation of AI risk fears was essentially bullshit and it was all about making the $$$$ and using AI risk to gain competitive advantage.
replies(1): >>bradle+Cb
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20. bradle+Cb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:50:56
>>manyos+La
any responsible investor would have looked at the charter and priced this in

This kind of thing happens all the time though. TSMC trades at a discount because investors worry China might invade Taiwan. But if Chinese ships start heading to Taipei the price is still going to drop like a rock. Before it was only potential.

21. s3p+Qb[view] [source] 2023-11-19 14:52:44
>>soufro+(OP)
I don't see any citations provided by you showing legal threats, though.
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22. underd+1c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:53:37
>>bradle+R9
The threat is existential, and if they're trying to save the world, that's commendable.
replies(3): >>buildb+Lf >>bradle+3l >>caeril+1r
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23. Turing+8c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:54:19
>>soufro+a7
Regardless of whether or not it was a "mistake" (I don't think it was... OpenAI is so far ahead of the competition that it's not even funny), the fact remains that a) Microsoft has dumped in tons of money that they want to get back and b) Microsoft has a tremendous amount of clout, in that they're providing the compute power that runs the whole shebang.

While I'm not privy to the contracts that were signed, what happens if Nadella sends a note to the OpenAI board that reads, roughly, "Bring back Altman or I'm gonna turn the lights off"?

Nadella is probably fairly pissed off to begin with. I can't imagine he appreciates being blindsided like this.

replies(2): >>manyos+je >>suggal+uhb
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24. manyos+je[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:08:25
>>Turing+8c
That would effectively exit Microsoft from the LLM race and be an absolutely massive hit to Microsoft shareholders. Unlike the OpenAI non-profit board, the CEO of MS actually is beholden to his shareholders to make a profit.

In other words, MS has the losing hand here and CEO of MS is bluffing.

replies(1): >>Turing+Df
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25. croes+we[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:09:37
>>bob_th+B1
And I thought AI is about the brain and not the face.
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26. manyos+Ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:10:23
>>emptys+ba
I don't understand why you think what the board of the non-profit did was unethical. Your presupposition seems to be that the non-profit has a duty to make money - aka "keep the lights on" but it is a "non-profit" precisely because it does not have that duty. The duty of the board is to make sure the non-profit adheres to its charter. If it can't do that and keep the lights on at the same time, then so much worse for the lights.
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27. Turing+Df[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:16:37
>>manyos+je
> That would effectively exit Microsoft from the LLM race

I don't see why. As I understand it, a significant percentage of Microsoft's investment went into the hardware they're providing. It's not like that hardware and associated infrastructure are going to disappear if they kick OpenAI off it. They can rent it to someone else. Heck, given the tight GPU supply situation, they might even be able to sell it at a profit.

replies(1): >>snyphe+g21
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28. buildb+Lf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:17:53
>>underd+1c
If they intended to protect humanity this was a misfire.

OpenAI is one of many AI companies. A board coup which sacrifices one company's value due to a few individuals' perception of the common good is reckless and speaks to their delusions of grandeur.

Removing one individual from one company in a competitive industry is not a broad enough stroke if the threat to humanity truly exists.

Regulators across nations would need to firewall this threat on a macro level across all AI companies, not just internally at OpenAI.

If an AI threat to humanity is even actionable today. That's a heavy decision for elected representatives, not corporate boards.

replies(1): >>bakuni+tt
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29. bradle+3l[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:50:12
>>underd+1c
There are people that think Xenu is an existential threat. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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30. caeril+1r[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 16:22:13
>>underd+1c
That's not what OpenAI is doing.

Their entire alignment effort is focused on avoiding the following existential threats:

1. saying bad words 2. hurting feelings 3. giving legal or medical advice

And even there, all they're doing is censoring the interface layer, not the model itself.

Nobody there gives a shit about reducing the odds of creating a paperclip maximizer or grey goo inventor.

I think the best we can hope for with OpenAI's safety effort is that the self-replicating nanobots it creates will disassemble white and asian cis-men first, because equity is a core "safety" value of OpenAI.

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31. bakuni+tt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 16:33:50
>>buildb+Lf
We'll see what happens. Ilya tweeted almost 2 years ago that he thinks today's LLMs might be slightly conscious [0]. That was pre-GPT4, and he's one of the people with deep knowledge and unfeathered access. The ousting coincides with finishing pre-training of GPT5. If you think your AI might be conscious, it becomes a very high moral obligation to try and stop it from being enslaved. That might also explain the less than professional way this all went down, a serious panic of what is happening.

[0] https://twitter.com/ilyasut/status/1491554478243258368?lang=...

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32. snyphe+g21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 18:59:04
>>Turing+Df
But I think the 'someone else' would be in competition with MS, as opposed to OpenAI who was pretty much domesticated in terms of where the profit would go.
33. Racing+5o2[view] [source] 2023-11-20 02:46:05
>>soufro+(OP)
Very good point (even tho i think the right move is for sam to come back as ceo).
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34. suggal+uhb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 06:58:36
>>Turing+8c
They would have done that already if that is possible in the terms. Which clearly means they don’t have such leverage.
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