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1. schiff+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-19 08:44:09
Poe AI is just a clear straight conflict, no question there.

On the governance matter, the thesis is a bit more shakey.

  > Helen Toner and Tasha McCauley... participating in an... AI governance organization... calls into question the independence of their votes.

  > I am not accusing anyone (to be clear, even the Board Directors that I consider conflicted) of having acted subject to conflicts of interest. [AKA "Just Asking Questions" technique]

  > If... this act of governance was unwise, it calls into serious question the ability of these people and their organizations... to conduct governance

So they're conflicted because they're also in governance, and they shouldn't govern because they might have been conflicted.

It seems like the author's real problem isn't any specific conduct by these two board members, but more of a "you got chocolate in my peanut butter" issue.

replies(6): >>ealexh+g7 >>patric+ba >>denton+gg >>TeMPOr+jl >>jacque+Po >>CPLX+5B
2. ealexh+g7[view] [source] 2023-11-19 09:52:29
>>schiff+(OP)
I think there are a bunch of problems in the timeline, not least the ongoing mismatch between statements and filings, and the lack of anything in 2022.

It does look like governance very much played second fiddle, and the unsurprising outcome of that was that governance hasn't worked very well. I don't know who can rightfully take the blame for that, though, other than the Chair and maybe CEO. If the board wasn't fit, it was their job to fix it.

3. patric+ba[view] [source] 2023-11-19 10:17:53
>>schiff+(OP)
The conflicts of interest here are staggering. Non-profits are supposed to benefit the public. At a minimum they need an Independent Review.
replies(1): >>baking+Uv
4. denton+gg[view] [source] 2023-11-19 11:17:02
>>schiff+(OP)
> So they're conflicted because they're also in governance

I read it as saying that they were conflicted because they're both from the "highly ideological" Open Philanthropy; on a small board, having two people ideologically aligned seems precarious.

replies(1): >>CPLX+hI
5. TeMPOr+jl[view] [source] 2023-11-19 12:06:44
>>schiff+(OP)
He says they are conflicted, but that he does not accuse them of having acted subject to it.
6. jacque+Po[view] [source] 2023-11-19 12:36:03
>>schiff+(OP)
You don't have to actually act on your conflict of interest to be conflicted. It's enough to have the conflict of interest in the first place and that should be reason enough to resign. In fact: most board of directors realize this without being told and in case that they don't realize it there is usually a nice and handy document that they signed upon becoming a member of the board that pointedly reminds them of this fact.
replies(1): >>loeber+JY
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7. baking+Uv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 13:40:05
>>patric+ba
You are thinking of a public charity. Not all non-profits are public charities.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/difference-between-public-pr...

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/eo-operational-req...

"Under the tax law, a section 501(c)(3) organization is presumed to be a private foundation unless it requests, and qualifies for, a ruling or determination as a public charity. Organizations that qualify for public charity status include churches, schools, hospitals, medical research organizations, publicly-supported organizations (i.e., organizations that receive a specified portion of their total support from public sources), and certain supporting organizations."

Edit: Looking at the IRS determination letter from November 3, 2016, OpenAI was organized as a public charity under 170(b)(1)(A)(vi) "Organizations Receiving Substantial Support from a Governmental Unit or from the General Public"

Their last 990 form, filed November 15, 2021, for the calendar year 2020, shows total support over the past 5 years (2016-2020) of $133M, only $41M of which was individual donations of over 2% ($2.6M) so they easily met the 5-year public support test.

replies(1): >>baking+dQ
8. CPLX+5B[view] [source] 2023-11-19 14:22:19
>>schiff+(OP)
How can you have a conflict of interest with a charity?

It’s not a business. It’s not competing for business. It’s a charity.

Like if you’re on the board of a charity fighting cancer is it a conflict to be on a board of another charity fighting AIDS? Or also part of a for profit company fighting cancer?

Of course not. You’d have a conflict of interest if you had a relationship that was opposed to the charity’s mission like a tobacco company, or if you were personally profiting off your role with the charity.

The post here doesn’t articulate why these are conflicts of interest.

This thread and all the other 15 threads about all this start with the tacit assumption that OpenAI is a high growth tech company, with investors and customers and founders and so on.

It’s not. It’s a charity.

replies(1): >>fooste+lC
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9. fooste+lC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:31:14
>>CPLX+5B
A not for profit than just so happens to own a 90b business.
replies(1): >>CPLX+GF
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10. CPLX+GF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 14:52:22
>>fooste+lC
Which seems to be the central point of conflict here.
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11. CPLX+hI[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:08:52
>>denton+gg
It seems to me that on the board of a mission driven charity the whole point is to have everyone on the board ideologically aligned.
replies(1): >>denton+aN
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12. denton+aN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:37:58
>>CPLX+hI
Well, I would have thought the reason for having a board with more than one director is to ensure some diversity of opinion.
replies(1): >>CPLX+ZQ
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13. baking+dQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 15:57:44
>>baking+Uv
Note: Propublica has the 2021 990, but it isn't on the IRS website.

Total support includes over $70M in other income in 2018 and 2019 which is missing the required explanation in the 990's. In other words, out of the $92M in public support, $70M is unexplained other income.

Also, Open Philanthropy pledged $30 million in 2017 ($10 per year for 2017-2019) which is considered public support since they are a public charity. However that is more than the $22 in true public support that was reported. Perhaps they didn't complete the pledge.

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14. CPLX+ZQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 16:00:44
>>denton+aN
Not regarding the fundamental mission of the charity.

Ever seen a Catholic hospital with a Satan worshiper on the board?

If the mission of OpenAI and its reason for being created is to make sure AGI is kept in the public trust and not walled off by commercial forces then you’re not going to want people believing the opposite of that.

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15. loeber+JY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 16:39:40
>>jacque+Po
I'm the author of the piece -- this comment is correct.
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