zlacker

[parent] [thread] 58 comments
1. fnordp+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-18 23:25:21
A non profit board absolutely calls the shots at a non profit, in so far as the CEO and their employment goes. Non profit boards are not beholden, structurally, to investors and there are no shareholders.

No stakeholder would walk away from OpenAI for want of sam Altman. They don’t license OpenAI technology or provide funding for his contribution. They do it to get access to GPT4. There is no comparable competitor available.

If anything they would be miffed about how it was handled, but to be frank, unless GPT4 is sam Altman furiously typing, I don’t know he’s that important. The instability caused by the suddenness, that’s different.

replies(10): >>airstr+h1 >>ergoco+j1 >>tsunam+l1 >>karmas+S1 >>qaq+X1 >>Terret+T2 >>icelan+g7 >>Infini+Wf >>pbadam+Ag >>Cyberf+Qv1
2. airstr+h1[view] [source] 2023-11-18 23:32:47
>>fnordp+(OP)
This is not just a "non-profit"... it's a non-profit that owns a $90B for-profit company developing revolutionary, once-in-a-century technology. There is a LOT of money at play here.

Others have commented on how Microsoft actually has access to the IP, so the odds that they could pack their toys and rebuild OpenAI 2.0 somewhere else with what they've learned, their near infinite capital and not have to deal with the non-profit shenanigans are meaningful.

I'm not saying Sam is needed to make OpenAI what it is, but he's definitely "the investors' guy" in the organization, based on what has surfaced over the last 24 hours. Those investors would rather have him there over someone else, hence the pressure to put him back. It doesn't matter whether you and I think he's the man for the job -- what matters is whether investors think they are.

TL;DR the board thinks they have leverage, but as it turns out, they don't

replies(1): >>fnordp+v4
3. ergoco+j1[view] [source] 2023-11-18 23:32:51
>>fnordp+(OP)
They officially call the shot.

But right now they get a lot of shitstorm for this inexperience handling.

And it doesn't look good from the board that looks inexperienced.

Gordon-Levitt's wife?? Helen who? D'Angelo with a failing quora and a history of a coup.

Doesn't look good.

I'd bet it starts impacting their personal lives. This is equivalent to them coming out to support Donald Trump. It is that bad.

4. tsunam+l1[view] [source] 2023-11-18 23:32:56
>>fnordp+(OP)
Nothing matters if you don’t have the money to enforce the system. Come on get real. Whatever the board says MS can turn off the money in a second and invalidate anything.
replies(1): >>fnordp+L3
5. karmas+S1[view] [source] 2023-11-18 23:35:52
>>fnordp+(OP)
Yes the board could claim OpenAI is nonprofit. But who is going to pay for the operation and salaries of its employees.

Definitely not OpenAI itself. They still need massive capital. With this drama, its future is put in serious doubt

replies(1): >>fnordp+e4
6. qaq+X1[view] [source] 2023-11-18 23:36:03
>>fnordp+(OP)
So they are trying to backtrack which makes them look pretty foolish for no apparent reason ?
replies(1): >>fnordp+Rk
7. Terret+T2[view] [source] 2023-11-18 23:41:09
>>fnordp+(OP)
> No stakeholder would walk away from OpenAI for want of sam Altman. They don’t license OpenAI technology or provide funding for his contribution. They do it to get access to GPT4. There is no comparable competitor available.

The implication in Microsoft's statement is clear that they have what they need to use the tech. I read it to mean OpenAI board does not have leverage.

replies(1): >>fnordp+P3
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8. fnordp+L3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 23:45:43
>>tsunam+l1
Microsoft depends on OpenAI much more than OpenAI depends on Microsoft. If you work with OpenAI as a company very often this is extraordinarily obvious.
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9. fnordp+P3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 23:46:21
>>Terret+T2
Microsoft has licensing rights to OpenAI tech. They do not “have it” in the sense they control it.
replies(1): >>lordfr+3z
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10. fnordp+e4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 23:48:56
>>karmas+S1
The board can and does claim it because it is legally a non profit. There is no wishy washy space this isn’t true in. Sam Altman isn’t the source of their funds, regardless. Finally, OpenAI has a pretty successful business model already without outside investment, and without sam or with sam they will not have trouble accessing customers or investors should they need it, even from Microsoft. Let’s be real Altman isn’t OpenAI.
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11. fnordp+v4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 23:50:19
>>airstr+h1
Microsoft doesn’t have ownership rights to OpenAI IP. They license it. They can’t pack up anything as they just have an IAM and billing model on top of GPT4 they use to resell OpenAI tech.
replies(3): >>vitorg+Tg >>sainez+Sz >>fullad+3G
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12. SeanAn+I5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 23:55:13
>>fnordp+L3
This doesn't seem very obvious to me. The fact this article exists, and that Microsoft is likely exerting influence over the CEO outcome, implies there's codependence at a minimum.
13. icelan+g7[view] [source] 2023-11-19 00:01:45
>>fnordp+(OP)
> A non profit board absolutely calls the shots at a non profit...

Doesn't look like it right now in this case.

replies(1): >>fnordp+Kk
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14. alumin+D8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 00:08:08
>>fnordp+L3
Microsoft is also OpenAI's main cloud provider, so they certainly have some leverage.
replies(1): >>fnordp+8l
15. Infini+Wf[view] [source] 2023-11-19 00:52:03
>>fnordp+(OP)
> A non profit board absolutely calls the shots at a non profit, in so far as the CEO and their employment goes. Non profit boards are not beholden, structurally, to investors and there are no shareholders.

There is theory and there is reality. If someone is paying your bills by an outsized amount and they say jump, you will say how high.

The influence is rarely that explicit though. The board knowing that X investor provides 60% of their funding, for instance, means the board is incentivized to do things that keep X investor happy without X having to ask for it.

9 times out of 10, money drives decisions in a captilist environment

replies(1): >>fnordp+Si
16. pbadam+Ag[view] [source] 2023-11-19 00:56:01
>>fnordp+(OP)
Something I don't fully understand, from [1], Altman was an employee of the for-profit entity. So to fire him, wouldn't the non-profit board be acting in it's capacity as a director of the for-profit entity (and thus have a fiduciary duty to all shareholders of the for-profit entity)? Non-profit governance is traditionally lax, but would the other shareholders have a case against the members of the non-profit board for acting recklessly w/ respect to shareholder interests in their capacity as directors of the for-profit?

This corporate structure is so convoluted that it's difficult to figure out what the actual powers/obligations of the individual agents involved are.

[1] https://openai.com/our-structure

replies(1): >>cthalu+oh
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17. xigenc+Qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 00:57:09
>>fnordp+L3
They could use Llama instead. OpenAI’s moat is very shallow. They’re still coasting on Google’s research papers.
replies(1): >>fnordp+rl
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18. vitorg+Tg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 00:57:37
>>fnordp+v4
Not really. They run custom GPT model lol
replies(1): >>fnordp+Jn
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19. cthalu+oh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:01:28
>>pbadam+Ag
LLCs do not require rights be assigned fairly to all shareholders if the operating agreement and by-laws say otherwise. This is the case with OpenAI, where the operating agreement effectively makes the fiduciary duty of the for-profit the accomplishment of the non-profit's charter. The pinkish purpleish block of text on the page you linked goes into more detail here.

(Remember, fiduciary does not necessarily have anything to do with money)

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20. fnordp+Si[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:12:44
>>Infini+Wf
OpenAI hasn’t received much funding from Microsoft or other investors, and is profitable already with no lack of interested suitors for funding and partnership. Microsoft’s leverage is grossly overstated mostly because it suits Microsoft to appear important to OpenAI when it’s the other way around.
replies(1): >>ipaddr+gu
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21. fnordp+Kk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:28:10
>>icelan+g7
Because of a news article saying a prior VC firm is pushing to reinstate sam or fund his new venture and didn’t care which way it goes? That’s not a lot to hang your hat on. They legally have every right to do what they did and no one can force them to change their mind under any circumstance. They might choose to, but OpenAI has all the cards. Sam Altman is a talking head, and if they churn some senior folks, OpenAI has the technology and brand to replace them. If I were the OpenAI board, I would be sleeping like a baby, especially if sam were acting out of sync with the charter of the non profit. I imagine his antics caused a lot of stress the further they drifted from their mission and the more he acted autonomously.
replies(1): >>icelan+Uh3
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22. fnordp+Rk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:29:07
>>qaq+X1
I didn’t see any actual evidence of that other than speculation and outside and uninvolved investors advocating for him in the article. I suspect this is a bait for your click.
replies(1): >>qaq+Kw6
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23. fnordp+8l[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:31:40
>>alumin+D8
Aws is JP Morgan’s main cloud provider, and Apples too. Do you think aws has leverage over JPMC and Apple due to that? Or does JPMC and Apple have leverage over aws?

Azure gets a hell of a lot more out of OpenAI than OpenAI gets out of azure. I’ll bet you GPT4 runs on nvidia hardware just as well regardless of who resells it.

replies(2): >>cthalu+qm >>wwtrv+0u
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24. fnordp+rl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:34:19
>>xigenc+Qg
If you’ve used the models for actual business problems GPT4 and its successive revisions are way beyond llama. They’re not comparable. I’m a huge fan of open models but it’s just different worlds of power. I’d note OpenAI has been working on GPT5 for some time as well, which I would expect to be a remarkable improvement incorporating much of the theoretical and technical advances of the last two years. Claude is the only actual competitor to GPT4 and it’s a “just barely relevant situation.”
replies(1): >>xigenc+3p
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25. cthalu+qm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:41:53
>>fnordp+8l
I think the larger issue here is that there's just not enough of that nvidia hardware out there if Microsoft decided to really play hardball, even if it hurts themselves in the short term. I don't know that any of the other cloud providers have the capacity to immediately shoulder OpenAI's workloads. JPMC or Apple have other clouds they can viably move to - OpenAI might not have anyone else that can meet their needs on short notice.

I think the situation is tough because I can't imagine there aren't legal agreements in place around what OpenAI has to do to access the funding tranches and compute power, but who knows if they are in a position to force the issue, or if I'm write in my supposition to begin with. Even if I am, a protracted legal battle where they don't have access to compute resources, particularly if they can't get an injunction, might be extremely deleterious to OpenAI.

Perhaps Microsoft even knows that they will take a bath on things if they follow this, but don't want to gain a reputation of allowing this sort of thing to happen - they are big enough to take a total bath on the OpenAI side of things and it not be anything close to a fatal blow.

I was more skeptical of this being the case last night, but less so now.

replies(1): >>fnordp+7n
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26. fnordp+7n[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:46:31
>>cthalu+qm
But why would Microsoft do anything to hurt their business in any way? They are almost certainly more furious for the way they found out than the actual action taken. Given how much Microsoft has bet their business on OpenAI (ask yourself who replaces bing chat? Why does anyone actually use azure in 2023?) being surprised by structural business decisions in their most important partner is shocking, and I think if I were the CEO of Microsoft I would be furious at being shocked more than pining in some weird Altman bromance.
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27. fnordp+Jn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:50:19
>>vitorg+Tg
Not one they own they don’t. OpenAI owns all of the GPT IP. Microsoft has a licensing arrangement with OpenAI. I’d note that azure GPT is not a custom model, only the bing chat is custom. And even the customizations aren’t owned by Microsoft.
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28. xigenc+3p[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:58:56
>>fnordp+rl
Hm, it’s hard for me to say because most of my prompts would get me banned from OpenAI but I’ve gotten great results for specific tasks using finetuned quantized 30B models on my desktop and laptop. All things considered, it’s a better value for me, especially as I highly value openness and privacy.
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29. naet+xt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:23:45
>>fnordp+L3
I'm not sure this is true- Microsoft put something like 10 billion into OpenAI, which they absolutely needed to continue the expensive computing and training. Without that investment money OpenAI might quickly find themselves at a huge deficit with no way to climb back out.
replies(2): >>ctvo+oy >>fnordp+xz
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30. riboso+Mt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:25:26
>>fnordp+7n
Microsoft finally has a leg up on Google in the public eye and they're gonna toss it away for Sam Altman? Seems dicey.
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31. wwtrv+0u[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:26:50
>>fnordp+8l
JP Morgan and Apple can actually afford to pay their cloud bills themselves. Open AI on the other hand can't.

> I’ll bet you GPT4 runs on nvidia hardware

Yes but they'll need to convince someone else like Amazon to give to them for free and regardless what happens next Microsoft will still have a signficant stake in OpenAI due to their previous investments.

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32. ipaddr+gu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:29:11
>>fnordp+Si
They received a 10 billion dollar investment that allows the product to operate plus they provide the servers. Without that your $20 a month goes to 2,000
replies(2): >>fnordp+1E >>sudosy+tE
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33. qwytw+iu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:29:17
>>fnordp+7n
> I would be furious at being shocked more than pining in some weird Altman bromance.

Hypothetically he might also have very little trust in the decision making abilities of the new management and how much their future goals will align with those of Microsoft.

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34. kcb+Cu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:31:17
>>fnordp+L3
Microsoft depends on OpenAI as long as they're rapidly advancing. It seems the new leadership wants to halt or slow the rapid advancement.
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35. lazyas+Du[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:31:18
>>fnordp+7n
> Why does anyone actually use azure in 2023?

When I see it, it has always been “Amazon is a competitor and we don’t buy from competitors”.

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36. ctvo+oy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:54:34
>>naet+xt
Ah yes, no other company would step in and get this deal from OpenAI if Microsoft pulls out. It's not like Amazon and Google pump billions into the OpenAI competitor.
replies(1): >>mdekke+0U
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37. lordfr+3z[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:58:50
>>fnordp+P3
Well I read Nadella threatened to turn off OpenAI's servers, so yeah, Microsoft does in fact control it.

Not your premises not your compute?

replies(1): >>fnordp+Pv2
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38. fnordp+xz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 03:01:00
>>naet+xt
Only a small fraction of the $10b was delivered and is apparently largely in azure credits.
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39. sainez+Sz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 03:02:30
>>fnordp+v4
> Microsoft doesn’t have ownership rights to OpenAI IP. They license it.

Honest question, do you have a source for that? Is it conceivable that Microsoft has some clause that grants them direct access to IP if OpenAI does not meet certain requirements. It is difficult to believe that Microsoft handed over $10B without any safeguards in place. Surely they did their due diligence on OpenAI's corporate structure.

replies(1): >>braiam+Vb1
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40. sebast+uD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 03:30:07
>>xigenc+3p
What specs are needed to run those models in your local machine without crashing the system?
replies(3): >>xigenc+eK >>mark_l+PO >>throwa+hU
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41. fnordp+1E[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 03:34:43
>>ipaddr+gu
They’ve actually drawn very little of that $10b. They are profitable at the moment, and would have no trouble raising funds from anywhere at the moment in any quantity they wanted.
replies(1): >>profil+Rh1
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42. sudosy+tE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 03:37:43
>>ipaddr+gu
They received much less than 10 billion, and it's mostly in credits (so really about half the value), in exchange for exclusive access to the world's most advanced LLM?
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43. fullad+3G[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 03:46:40
>>fnordp+v4
I would expect that Microsoft would have negotiated terms like a perpetual license to the IP, given that they were the main investor and were in a strong negotiating position.

Microsoft has a lot of experience interacting with small companies, including in situations like this one where the small company implodes. The people there know how to protect Microsoft's interests in such scenarios, and they definitely are aware that such things can happen.

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44. xigenc+eK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 04:16:07
>>sebast+uD
I use Faraday.dev on an RTX 3090 and smaller models on a 16gb M2 Mac and I’m able to have deep, insightful conversations with personal AI at my direction.

I find the outputs of LLMs to be quite organic when they are given unique identities, and especially when you explore, prune or direct their responses.

ChatGPT comes across like a really boring person who memorized Wikipedia, which is just sad. Previously the Playground completions allowed using raw GPT which let me unlock some different facets, but they’ve closed that down now.

And again, I don’t really need to feed my unique thoughts, opinions, or absurd chat scenarios into a global company trying to create AGI, or have them censor and filter for me. As an AI researcher, I want the uncensored model to play with along with no data leaving my network.

The uses of LLMs for information retrieval are great (Bing has improved alot) but the much more interesting cases for me are how they are able to parse nuance, tone, and subtext - imagine a computer that can understand feelings and respond in kind. Empathetic commuting, and it’s already here on my PC unplugged from the Internet.

replies(1): >>mark_l+tP
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45. m3kw9+8L[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 04:24:04
>>fnordp+L3
Microsoft already has the models and weights, not the tech
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46. mark_l+PO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 04:53:55
>>sebast+uD
Another data point: I can (barely) run a 30B 4 bit quantized model on a Mac Mini with 32G on chip memory but it runs slowly (a little less than 10 tokens/second).

13B and 7B models run easily and much faster.

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47. mark_l+tP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 04:57:56
>>xigenc+eK
+1 Greg. I agree with most of what you say. Also, it is so much more fun running everything locally.
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48. mdekke+0U[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 05:39:43
>>ctvo+oy
I’m pretty sure there are contracts, and one way or another, everyone would get a stay on everyone else and nothing would happen for years except court cases
replies(1): >>dragon+2V
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49. throwa+hU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 05:41:56
>>sebast+uD
check out https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/
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50. dragon+2V[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 05:48:56
>>mdekke+0U
> I’m pretty sure there are contracts

Which one side or the other would declare terminated for nonperformance by the other side, perhaps while suing for breach.

> and one way or another, everyone would get a stay on everyone else

If by a stay you mean an injunction preventing a change in the arrangements, it seems unlikely that "everyone would get a stay on everyone". Likelihood of success on the merits and harm that is not possible to remediate via damages that would occur if the injunction wasn't placed are key factors for injunctions, and that's far from certain to work in any direction, and even less likely to work in both directions.

> and nothing would happen for years except court cases

Business goes on during court cases, it is very rare that everything is frozen.

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51. int_19+EV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 05:58:15
>>xigenc+3p
Even the best unquantized finetunes of llama2-70b are, at best, somewhat superior to GPT-3.5-turbo (and I'm not even sure they would beat the original GPT-3.5, which was smarter). They are not even close to GPT-4 on any task requiring serious reasoning or instruction following.
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52. intend+cW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 06:04:19
>>xigenc+3p
For an individual use case Llama is fine. If you start getting to large workflows and need reliable outputs, GPT wins out substantially. I know all the papers and headlines about comparative performance, but thats on benchmarks.

Ive found that benchmarks are great as a hygiene test, but pointless when you need to get work done.

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53. braiam+Vb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 08:48:32
>>sainez+Sz
OpenAI for-profit main purpose is to fulfill the desires of the non-profit. If there's a contract that goes against that, the contract would be void if necessary or that stipulation just crossed out.
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54. profil+Rh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 09:43:17
>>fnordp+1E
What’s the source on this?
55. Cyberf+Qv1[view] [source] 2023-11-19 11:58:49
>>fnordp+(OP)
A company is just legalese + people. And people are notoriously for-profit, especially in this day and age.

The board can maintain control of the legal aspects (such as the org itself), but in the end, people are much more important.

Organizations are easy to duplicate. Persons, less so.

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56. fnordp+Pv2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 18:09:53
>>lordfr+3z
Even threatening that, if disclosed publicly, would entirely threaten Azures business model. Cloud providers try to stay entirely neutral to their users business insofar as they don’t breach a ToS, law, or regulation forcing their actions. The entire business model is trusting a third party with the keys to your business. In my time working as a senior person at a cloud provider, then as a person setting system for major customers of cloud providers, this specific point was sacrosanct and invariant. Crossing that line would be a huge breach of the business model.

I think in this case I would need to see a source to believe you, and if substantiated, it would make me question Nadellas fitness to lead a cloud computing business.

replies(1): >>lordfr+Y43
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57. lordfr+Y43[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 20:55:05
>>fnordp+Pv2
Can't find the original thing I read with a more direct statement, I remember it being an anonymous source (on twitter maybe?) with inside info. I did more digging and found a few other things.

There's this [1], a NYT article saying that Microsoft is leading the pressure campaign to get Altman reinstated.

And there's this [2], a Forbes article which claims the playbook is a combination of mass internal revolt, withheld cloud computing credits from Microsoft, and a lawsuit from investors.

[1] https://archive.is/fEVTK#selection-517.0-521.120

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkonrad/2023/11/18/openai-in...

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58. icelan+Uh3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 21:54:41
>>fnordp+Kk
> If I were the OpenAI board, I would be sleeping like a baby

Well, they're all about to be out of a job, so it's a good time to catch up on sleep.

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59. qaq+Kw6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:29:12
>>fnordp+Rk
"Ilya Sutskever @ilyasut I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions. I never intended to harm OpenAI. I love everything we've built together and I will do everything I can to reunite the company."
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