zlacker

[parent] [thread] 53 comments
1. lapphi+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-02 14:12:17
Upon logging into okcupid today I received a pop up inviting me to join The League (another dating app), with my phone number already pre-propagated. After accepting, they sent me this email.

> We use the combination of your Facebook and LinkedIn data plus your About Me and Photos to ensure we are building a balanced, high-achieving and diverse community. Our screening algorithm looks at indicators like social influence, education, profession, industry, friends in The League, number of referrals you've made to your network, as well as supplemental data like what groups you belong to, events you've attended, interests you list, and preferences.

Absolutely terrifying.

replies(7): >>devout+s3 >>mey+k7 >>office+j9 >>bradle+s9 >>PaulHo+No >>qingch+l61 >>xadhom+lg1
2. devout+s3[view] [source] 2023-11-02 14:29:29
>>lapphi+(OP)
Reminds of the days when your name, address, and phone number were automatically listed in the phone book. You had to pay the phone company to not list your information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_directory

replies(5): >>fireca+16 >>noneth+b9 >>cobbau+aq >>6510+sq >>rando_+fN
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3. fireca+16[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 14:43:02
>>devout+s3
Being ex-directory was a status symbol in the UK!
4. mey+k7[view] [source] 2023-11-02 14:48:18
>>lapphi+(OP)
It sounds like their marketing blurb just copied Tom Scott without understanding the horror it's supposed to represent.

https://youtu.be/WByBm2SwKk8

replies(1): >>willy_+Ka
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5. noneth+b9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 14:56:35
>>devout+s3
Sidebar: it used to be completely normal to publish your phone number and address publicly yet far less people had the information. The people who had it were basically a subset of people in your local community. Looking back at this point in time, the world felt so huge because it wasn't so connected and centralized.
6. office+j9[view] [source] 2023-11-02 14:56:58
>>lapphi+(OP)
As someone that refuses to use Linked In or Facebook it is wild to me that someone would not only use them, but willingly link a dating app to them.

It makes me wonder how many more things I'll never get to participate in because I've deleted/avoid social media.

replies(7): >>diggin+Xn >>IgorPa+tC >>TheBoz+OF >>nonran+3L >>Someon+wP >>rebole+ZU >>semiqu+kY
7. bradle+s9[view] [source] 2023-11-02 14:57:32
>>lapphi+(OP)
Okcupid and The League are owned by the same company. So that’s a first-party, in platform ad
replies(1): >>zonoto+ab
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8. willy_+Ka[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:01:32
>>mey+k7
Can’t tell if you mean this literally or not. I doubt this video had any significant influence the blurb.
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9. zonoto+ab[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:03:04
>>bradle+s9
I don't think that's the issue. The issue is they use your "profile" from other companies like facebook and linkedin to decide whether or not you're worthy of joining. What other things will people who refuse to use these apps be rejected from if more companies adopt this screening strategy? Jobs? Schools? Grocery stores?
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10. diggin+Xn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:51:07
>>office+j9
You and I, and probably a few others here on HN, are slowly being sifted into a parallel "unsocial" world, I fear. It's genuinely disgusting to see the kind of personal data we're expected to pass out by the truckload for every little digital trinket and feature, let alone entire facets of society such as dating apps.
replies(3): >>_jal+jw >>hn7277+RE >>nvm0n2+3J
11. PaulHo+No[view] [source] 2023-11-02 15:53:55
>>lapphi+(OP)
One of those things y'all never upvote is papers about psychodiagnostic software that uses your social media posts, cell phone location data, etc. to diagnose both chronic and acute psychiatric conditions.

I'm fairly certain that if a person is highly active on social media such a system could produce a better diagnosis than most people get when they see a professional, if only because the quality of psychodiagnosis is poor since it is often seen as a scam to satisfy insurance bureaucrats, common conditions are never diagnosed, there are fads for certain rare conditions, etc.

replies(6): >>teachr+1q >>hutzli+Ot >>spinni+1z >>phone8+GB >>taway1+CC >>r00fus+VC
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12. teachr+1q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:57:25
>>PaulHo+No
I don't mean to sound flip, but I don't think identifying pathological psychological conditions via web browsing habits is all that difficult. I have a friend who went through a severe depressive episode. As soon as he started watching YouTube at 2am, he started getting ads for depression meds.
replies(2): >>PaulHo+vt >>aaroni+0E
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13. cobbau+aq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:57:48
>>devout+s3
Phone books were local, as in the neighbouring couple hundred thousand people max, so about one in ten thousand less than current social media.

And, at least here, they contained last name and one letter of the first name. No information on gender/interests/articles read/ads clicked/locations visited/family/friends/devices used/apps installed/items bought/...

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14. 6510+sq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:58:49
>>devout+s3
With "The phone book" they mean dozens if not hundreds of regional phone books.
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15. PaulHo+vt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:08:21
>>teachr+1q
It's not difficult at all. That's the point. A system like that collects a lot of data and very few people are going to feel that they need to dissimulate.
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16. hutzli+Ot[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:09:22
>>PaulHo+No
"if a person is highly active on social media "

.. then the diagnosis of one of their problems sounds quite trivial.

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17. _jal+jw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:17:22
>>diggin+Xn
I'm in the same boat. My internet excludes a bunch of ASs used by surveillance shops.

This is what we're asking for. I am refusing to divulge information about me I don't want to share. Other people are building whatever on top of that data. I can hardly complain about lack of inclusion when I am the one refusing to feed their robots.

If you want people at Cheers to know your name, you... have to tell them your name. I'm fine being anonymous. It sounds like maybe you're more conflicted.

replies(2): >>rdiddl+cY >>diggin+q01
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18. spinni+1z[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:25:57
>>PaulHo+No
I think you've neatly summarised why it doesn't get upvoted:

1. "could" produce a better diagnosis. Not guaranteed. And better than what? How likely is it to really deliver a better result than appropriately trained specialists? 2. "scam to satisfy insurance bureaucrats". And you doing it digitally won't find its way to unintended recipients?

The undercurrent of this thread - and the original post - is growing awareness of the dystopian disaster that has grown out of "free" social media. So it's not surprising - to me, at any rate - that the general sentiment here is to be suspicious of any adjacent use.

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19. phone8+GB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:34:36
>>PaulHo+No
> I'm fairly certain that if a person is highly active on social media such a system could produce a better diagnosis than most people get when they see a professional

What makes you so sure? (This is a serious question, not rhetorical.)

replies(1): >>PaulHo+wF
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20. IgorPa+tC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:37:24
>>office+j9
So FB has one solid product that I wish they wouldn’t fuck up so much: Marketplace. Everything else about it sucks but MP is legitimately useful and the ability to see a person’s social profile along with their listings is very nice. It is the only reason I still have an FB profile.
replies(1): >>office+jY
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21. taway1+CC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:37:39
>>PaulHo+No
That sounds nice! Do you know of any offline linux-compatible software that could pull this off? I'm happy to try it on myself.

What I don't understand though is why do I also need to share my browsing history with faceless american corps that sell my data for profit. This sounds unnecessary for the main point (psychodiagnostic software).

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22. r00fus+VC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:38:17
>>PaulHo+No
Well, if you've ever watched a movie like Real Genius [1], you may begin to understand some of the concerns of people building things with advanced capabilities.

Imagine how your tech could be used for evil and how profitable that would be. It could be a 2nd or even 3rd order effect, even.

[1] Film focuses on a college team building something they think is cool but really is a key part of a weapons system.

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23. aaroni+0E[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:42:17
>>teachr+1q
Worse yet, "web browsing habits" is just one neck of the hydra. What you buy (when, as mentioned) serves as strong signal for any number of factors; all your conventional demographics of course...

I'm not in the industry but I am very curious to know if we're already in the conditional-execution phase of surveillance/ad-serving/profile-updating: is there an idea [yet] of serving a challenge, and then both recording how/if it is engaged, with automated graph traversal to "look closer"... all offered stochastically...

The simple way to put that in part is, are we now getting A/B tests run on us explicitly, rather than merely implicitly?

(Personally, I'm 100% off Meta products and TikTok—but am leaking through LinkedIn and, regrettably, Google...)

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24. hn7277+RE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:45:27
>>diggin+Xn
I'm now feeling like social only exists in real life, not online. We were sold an illusion of connectedness when we were in fact the product being sold. Good marketing. We were told what we wanted to hear.
replies(1): >>diggin+q21
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25. PaulHo+wF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:48:02
>>phone8+GB
Mostly because the quality of professional diagnosis is poor.

Myself I have a condition which 5-10% of people have. As a child, I had two very high quality psych evaluations for the time where people observed all the signs and symptoms (particularly the first one) but failed to draw a line between them.

Since then I saw therapists maybe 6 times in 30 years (sometimes the same one) and it was always “adjustment disorder with …” and there was some truth in that in that in each case I had some very ordinary kind of stress which was exacerbating my condition but in reality there was always a chronic aspect to that.

I’ve known numerous people who have severe mental illness (way worse than the quirk that got me kicked out of elementary school) and contact with the psychiatric system and never got a conclusive diagnosis. The first line for a lot of people is to see a primary care practitioner and get diagnosed with either “anxiety” or “depression” and prescribe the same medication in either case. A referral to an actual psychiatric nurse practitioner who is taking patients is almost impossible in 2023 in the US never mind an actual psychiatrist.

replies(1): >>diggin+q31
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26. TheBoz+OF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:49:02
>>office+j9
Sadly, data collection has been completely normalized.

I've been thinking about buying a new car, but I'm very aware of how much tracking/telematics they include nowadays... so I decided to search "$manufacturer disable telematics". Every single thread I found was full of people saying variants of "Why do you even want to do that lol" and "Looks like somebody is doing something illegal".

Every time I see stuff like that, I'm tempted to jump in and share a plethora of examples about how tech companies misuse your data, don't protect it properly, sell it to all sorts of dubious actors, and, most importantly, use it for advertising - which I consider to be nothing more than gaslighting to get you to buy stuff and absolutely despicable.

I have to stop myself because I know I wouldn't get through to them, and I would probably sound crazy.

replies(3): >>helloj+6N >>throw8+zU >>nonran+OV
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27. nvm0n2+3J[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:00:43
>>diggin+Xn
It's a dating site. The whole idea is that you upload all kinds of personal details so they can match you with a life partner. What exactly does a privacy-focused dating site look like?
replies(2): >>nonran+dN >>diggin+721
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28. nonran+3L[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:07:20
>>office+j9
There's a book I found very influential, called "Missing Out" by Adam Phillips. Not something I'd recommend for the casual reader as it's psychologically heavy imho.

But it's the best antidote to FOMO, and so it's central theme "In praise of the unlived life" is worth a mention; There's a lot of shit you'll be glad you missed out on, but felt cheated at the time...

That bullet that whizzed past your head... you missed out on.

That plane you missed... that crashed... you missed out on.

That medication they wouldn't give you ... that turned out to have lethal side effect...

These are silly examples compared to the sumptuous theme Phillips develops about how so much of our whole of lives is a set of misplaced expectations and values that are given to us by others but rarely check out in the long term. It's a very affirming to get beyond confirmation/survivor bias and retrospective rose-tinted goggles.

Being "excluded" from a group of people who are the sort who would give their details to BigTech social networks may turn out to be a blessing in ways you can't see yet.

[edit: moved, sorry I replied to wrong comment]

replies(1): >>Levitz+dO
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29. helloj+6N[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:14:42
>>TheBoz+OF
I go through this routine with my wife all the time. She either tells me, "I don't care." or ends up pointing out that all the data tracking landed her a sweet sale/coupon/etc. so she's actually happy that she's being tracked.
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30. nonran+dN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:15:07
>>nvm0n2+3J
A very good question.

OKCupid is actually a site some people reported as being the "better kind" of dating site, because they're geared toward successful LTR rather than hookup. The dating space is actually full of different interaction and match models that sometimes people don't seem to understand.

Some of the issues around risk, identity and power asymmetry are covered here [0]

[0] https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=20

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31. rando_+fN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:15:10
>>devout+s3
and cross-referenced with your location at all times, all of your shopping habits, your viewing and reading habits, and every person you communicate with?

In an easily searchable database?

Sooo tempted to go Goodwin here and mention a nice use of computers from the late 1930s...

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32. Levitz+dO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:18:49
>>nonran+3L
More and more people are okay with losing with privacy though, and the more who take that position, the more you lose by not taking it.
replies(1): >>nonran+fT
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33. Someon+wP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:23:32
>>office+j9
You should also wonder how many things you’re being participated in.

Even if you’ve never had an account on social media, chances are Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. know your name, email address, age, social graph, etc. because other people have shared their address book with them. Other users also might have tagged photos with your name, after which those sites concluded “that must be the same officeplant that’s in their address book”.

I expect LinkedIn to suggest people to connect because you’re their mutual friend, for example.

replies(1): >>office+NZ
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34. nonran+fT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:36:43
>>Levitz+dO
> More and more people are okay with losing with privacy though, and the more who take that position, the more you lose by not taking it.

I'm trying to simply that with an ear for contradiction;

If P; the more group A lose -> if NOT P; the more group NOT A lose. For P -> L = some loss of privacy

(Okay it's late and I'm clutching at it a little, but something doesn't ring true)

It seems like a formulation of "network effect" on the surface. But if P => L it can't be the same L on the right hand side, no? For the group who are the exclusion of A, their L has to be a gain. Or they are not playing the game well/optimally,

replies(1): >>ImPost+p41
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35. throw8+zU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:41:02
>>TheBoz+OF
i get the having control of your data part (at least for address, name, social sec #, phone number and email - those are really important). but i could care less if an algorithm knows i like elvis presely or what my taste in food is, etc.

but i don't understand how personalized ads are harmful. if you don't like the product, just don't buy it? what am i missing?

personally, i only buy products that I really want or really need, so if an ad pops up that convinces me to buy, then it's done me a huge favor. but this almost never ever happens. usually, the ads are terribly targetted and don't show any clue of understanding who I am as a person. to me, it seems the problem is they're not targetted enough, rather than too targetted.

replies(2): >>gls2ro+AZ >>muffin+Q11
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36. rebole+ZU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:42:46
>>office+j9
I don't use Facebook. I've got account there but I haven't bothered to delete as it seem s to be too much hassle than simply ignoring it.

I use LinkedIn. I haven't used it in years, now I'm back because that's where the headhunters are and where I can probably find a job. After I'll find new job, I'll switch to zombie mode again and won't use it until I need it again.

So yeah, the reason I use LinkedIn is to not miss a job offer. I don't have a reason to use FB thought.

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37. nonran+OV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:45:31
>>TheBoz+OF
> and I would probably sound crazy.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with sounding crazy. I mean look at the world. What do you have to lose?

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38. rdiddl+cY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:56:06
>>_jal+jw
Ha ha - Cheers. I always found that lyric to be flat wrong. The place where "everybody knows your name" is the same place where you spend most of your time, and is almost certainly the place where "all your worries" are coming from in the first place, a.k.a. your life. (Which, if you're an alcoholic, could be a bar, sure why not.)

It "sure would help a lot" to go to such a place? Because you're constantly being bothered by total strangers at rates far in excess of the average? Because the first people police interview as murder suspects is everybody who doesn't know the victim? No my friend.

Of course now you can give out your name to total strangers many miles away, with a degree of efficiency undreamt-of in the 80s, yet not even have any fun times spent drinking with those people, so...

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39. office+jY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:57:02
>>IgorPa+tC
Facebook Marketplace sucking the life out of Craigslist hits me hard every time I have something to sell and I really don't want to bother with ebay + shipping.
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40. semiqu+kY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:57:06
>>office+j9
The sad part is that willingness doesn’t really enter into it. And refusal to use FB or linkedin doesn’t really provide much protection. Data brokers can create a rich profile of anyone who participates in the modern economy. Payroll firms, credit card processors, etc etc are all selling data to the highest bidder. I’m convinced that opting out of this system is not really possible without opting out of society in general.
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41. gls2ro+AZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:02:25
>>throw8+zU
personalized ads are harmful because they can target your deep (sometimes even unknown by you) fears or desires sometimes in the most vulnerable moment.

So the choice to act is not as free as you describe.

You seem to think only about cases where personalized ads are used for products but the most harm is when people use this to influence groups. the same way they personalize an ad for a product that seems to be the perfect fit in your current situation the same mechanism/algorithm can personalize a message in a way that will influence you just a bit. and then tomorrow another small bit and so you find yourself (a general self not you) hating groups of people you never encountered so far.

Intelligence or IQ or whatever rational high points you have will not protect you from this over a long period of exposure.

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42. office+NZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:02:55
>>Someon+wP
Its one of the reasons I contemplated keeping a facebook account to remain in control of a few things. I had turned on the option to let me verify all tags and it was great to be able to deny tags, but I always assumed facebook still knew it was me and could associate the same untagged face across photos that still had my name listed (just not tagged due to denying).
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43. diggin+q01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:05:30
>>_jal+jw
> It sounds like maybe you're more conflicted.

Only in the sense that I'm mad that it's hard to get any good new technology that isn't a privacy nightmare.

I see Cool App #354 and think it looks fun to use, but I am only allowed to use it if I give up my privacy. Since I don't want to do that, Cool App #354, which doesn't need any (or at least all) of that data to do the functions I like, is something I can only watch friends use.

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44. muffin+Q11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:11:51
>>throw8+zU
Taste in food, the supplements you take, and things like whether you like Elvis Presely, can absolutely be used to out you in ways that you may not want.

The famous example I remember from growing up was a teen girl whose parents found out she was pregnant from a personalized (mailed) Target ad: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ... . There seem to be some skepticism in later articles that this is actually how her parents found out, but only because she told them first. They could have found out from the ad.

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/big.2017.0074 is a more detailed study of how Facebook likes can out people. It looks like the "cloaking" solution that the authors propose actually makes the model more accurate. From the article "false-positive inferences are significantly easier to cloak than true-positive inferences".

If you're the only one who knows what ads you see, that might still be okay, but if a platform can make these kinds of inferences to show you ads, they can use the same data in other ways. At the very least, they might leak this information to other users by recommending people you may know, etc. You might also reveal what kind of personal ads you get if you ever browse the web someplace where other people can glance at your screen.

replies(1): >>throw8+161
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45. diggin+721[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:13:07
>>nvm0n2+3J
This question confuses me and I'm not sure we have the same understanding of digital privacy at all.

I'm not talking about the information they ask me to provide. That's a drop in the bucket and is also under my control to disclose or not. I'm talking about all the other shit apps hoover up without permission.

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46. diggin+q21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:14:18
>>hn7277+RE
In-person social interaction still kicks ass, yes. I use "unsocial" sarcastically.
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47. diggin+q31[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:18:54
>>PaulHo+wF
That's not exactly strong evidence that "quality of professional diagnosis is poor" though... it's just evidence that quality was poor in cases you're aware of. It's also not evidence at all that being tracked by facebook would have come up with better results sooner.
replies(1): >>PaulHo+Pq1
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48. ImPost+p41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:24:12
>>nonran+fT
it would help for you to define your variables (A, P, L) and notation (=, ->, "lose")

Or, if you could, would you mind rewriting it in english, please?

replies(1): >>nonran+a61
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49. throw8+161[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:32:09
>>muffin+Q11
but judging how awful the targetting is, I don't think anyone watching your screen as you browse should be able to make any kind of conclusions of you. if anything, the ads we receive are a reflection of human beings at large or at least what advertisers think of them.

you wouldn't believe how irrelevant to me, the ads i get are.

replies(1): >>lapphi+c43
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50. nonran+a61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:33:00
>>ImPost+p41
Fair enough, you asked, and my attempts to think out loud in logic isn't helping I admit. So the nub is that clearly, to me, when Levitz uses the word "lose" above, s/he cannot be talking about the same "lose" in both parts of the assertion.
51. qingch+l61[view] [source] 2023-11-02 18:33:59
>>lapphi+(OP)
Like this:

https://nitter.net/AlexBlechman/status/1457842724128833538

52. xadhom+lg1[view] [source] 2023-11-02 19:19:56
>>lapphi+(OP)
I mean who cares? How does this affect your life?
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53. PaulHo+Pq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 20:04:54
>>diggin+q31
Back when the problem was too much psychiatric care instead of not enough there was this famous experiment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

This one is more positive but is checking that different diagnosticians get the same answer

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5980511/

and if that was applied to the "Thud" experiment you'd have poor diagnosis with a very high kappa (interrater agreement)

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54. lapphi+c43[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-03 07:27:07
>>throw8+161
Yes but that data never gets deleted really. So going forward you’ll have like profiles that are decades old and still available for analysis. For instance if you have depression they could show you ads for Prozac. Then if you get married and have kids, they know that your children are probably more prone to depression. Oh, and you live in a rural area and occasionally hunt. So your kid is now on some list. Or the other way, your kids phone gets sent ads from prager u. These are far fetched examples but 30 years from it’s absolutely within the realm of possibility. We only keep adding to the mountain with devices like the Apple Watch.
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