zlacker

[parent] [thread] 46 comments
1. leksak+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-02 11:28:48
> Meta has stated that it had already announced plans to provide users in the EU and EEA with an opportunity to provide consent and will introduce a subscription model in November to comply with regulatory requirements

This effectively means then that if you are in the EU and you'd want to use either Facebook or Instagram you'd have to pay for a subscription then because they presumably won't offer the free-service without personalized ads and since the law prohibits them from doing that then the only way to use either service will be to pay for it..?

replies(7): >>starta+31 >>estel+R1 >>trizoz+22 >>Semaph+c3 >>outsid+KF1 >>tgsovl+vt2 >>arendt+AP5
2. starta+31[view] [source] 2023-11-02 11:36:07
>>leksak+(OP)
Exactly, and I personally don't see anything wrong with this approach. You can't offer a free service if you can't make money from it somehow.
replies(3): >>contra+Y2 >>latexr+s3 >>beejiu+xz
3. estel+R1[view] [source] 2023-11-02 11:39:53
>>leksak+(OP)
From the Independent (and presumably elsewhere):

> Meta said it has cooperated with regulators and pointed to its announced plans to give Europeans the opportunity to consent to data collection and, later this month, to offer an ad-free subscription service in Europe that will cost 9.99 euros ($10.59) a month for access to all its products

> Tobias Judin, head of the international section at the Norwegian Data Protection Authority, said Meta's proposed steps likely won't meet European legal standards. For instance, he said, consent would have to be freely given, which wouldn't be the case if existing users had to choose between giving up their privacy rights or paying a financial penalty in the form of a subscription.

replies(2): >>timeon+dA1 >>dotanc+fh2
4. trizoz+22[view] [source] 2023-11-02 11:40:43
>>leksak+(OP)
This is awesome. Yet another great reason to leave the service completely.
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5. contra+Y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 11:46:10
>>starta+31
Though it'd be interesting to see what wins out, whether people are really willing to pay Facebook enough to replace the ad funds, or if something else wins out.

To some extent easy ad revenue has given some of these companies a version of Dutch disease, if this revenue falls away for whatever reason they'll need to win out in features or efficiency. Given that I'd be happy if facebook vanished from the face of the earth and that their website is the definition of bloat I'd say they're not doing too well in that regard.

6. Semaph+c3[view] [source] 2023-11-02 11:47:24
>>leksak+(OP)
Unless I’m completely misunderstanding things, they’ll do what many news sites in Germany already do:

Option A: Continue for free with ads (and tracking and profiling etc.)

Option B: Pay for a subscription without ads or tracking (most seem to use a service called "Pur" (pure))

This does not mesh with some people’s understanding of the GDPR, but at least several German courts said it’s okay.

replies(2): >>gpdere+O4 >>tzs+am
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7. latexr+s3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 11:48:48
>>starta+31
They could still show ads without all the invasiveness. For example: advertisers could pay to place ads in specific Facebook groups and they would show to people visiting those pages. Like it has been done for decades in magazines and other physical media. The internet did not invent advertising.
replies(4): >>geek_a+UA1 >>adrr+aD1 >>justap+mD1 >>eloran+EG1
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8. gpdere+O4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 11:55:10
>>Semaph+c3
This is common in Italy as well. Do you have any (English) links to court reports?
replies(1): >>Semaph+Z6
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9. Semaph+Z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 12:06:49
>>gpdere+O4
No, and I can’t even find the German reports (this was a while ago, but I’m reasonably certain I didn’t make a court case up :D). But Netzpolitik [0] reports that our Data Protection Agencies essentially declared it as okay half a year ago.

[0]: https://netzpolitik.org/2023/alternative-zu-tracking-datensc...

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10. tzs+am[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 13:33:01
>>Semaph+c3
My recollection is that at least some country's regulators have said that if you offer option A you must also offer option A': continue for free without tracking and profiling.

Their reasoning was that GDPR says that consent must be freely given. If the site provides more service if you consent than the consent is not freely given according to those regulators.

(It seemed kind of goofy to me. In every other context I can think of consenting to something that you do not like in exchange for getting something that you want is usually considered to be freely given consent unless that something you want is something that is necessary).

replies(2): >>Semaph+lN >>xigoi+7O
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11. beejiu+xz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 14:40:31
>>starta+31
The problem is the network effect dissolves. There's no point being on Facebook if 80% of your friends leave because they don't want to pay for it.
replies(1): >>bmicra+wv2
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12. Semaph+lN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:34:03
>>tzs+am
As I posted in another comment, German regulators apparently okayed this.
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13. xigoi+7O[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:37:14
>>tzs+am
If what you're describing is free consent, then what does non-free consent look like?
replies(2): >>Semaph+jZ >>shaftw+JR1
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14. Semaph+jZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:14:06
>>xigoi+7O
The current solution at facebook: You will be tracked.
replies(1): >>xigoi+101
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15. xigoi+101[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 16:16:17
>>Semaph+jZ
That's not non-free consent, that's not consent at all.
replies(1): >>Semaph+Um3
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16. timeon+dA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:33:27
>>estel+R1
> For instance, he said, consent would have to be freely given, which wouldn't be the case if existing users had to choose between giving up their privacy rights or paying a financial penalty in the form of a subscription.

This is already present in EU. Spiegel.de and others are like that. Pay or be tracked.

replies(4): >>staunt+2D1 >>sharem+eD1 >>bluelu+OI1 >>signal+n72
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17. geek_a+UA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:37:07
>>latexr+s3
exactly and even if they didn't take "personalized data" into account, they can still serve you ads based on pages/profiles you liked
replies(1): >>Zanni+6F1
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18. staunt+2D1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:46:06
>>timeon+dA1
The problem in that case is how it's possible "not to track" somebody who pays for the service and accesses content via a paid account, and how it's possible to demonstrate to users how their data is handled. I guess only big companies that subject themselves to public oversight can really achieve it.

An alternative might be homomorphic encryption, which would already be doable with current technology for something like a newspaper.

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19. adrr+aD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:46:34
>>latexr+s3
They don't work effectively if they aren't targeted on who you are. It would be like TV ads.

Biggest example is the IOS privacy which has hit whole industry in terms of marketing effectiveness and cost.

replies(1): >>fsflov+3F3
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20. sharem+eD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:46:44
>>timeon+dA1
exactly facebook(US company) illegal, EU companies legal. let's not kid ourselves on how these dog and pony shows work.
replies(2): >>erinnh+4F1 >>neaumu+1G1
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21. justap+mD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:47:11
>>latexr+s3
There’s a reason why magazines ads are dying and being replaced by personalized ads. Advertising like that is widely inefficient.

It’s easy to show ads. Not that easy to make money from doing so. It’s as valid alternative as telling people to use horses instead of cars to reduce CO2 emissions. They both get from point A to B, right?

replies(3): >>polyga+WG1 >>itroni+gR1 >>rvba+K0a
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22. erinnh+4F1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:53:18
>>sharem+eD1
The practice has been very controversial in the EU ever since GDPR took effect.

It’s simply that nobody has been sued to the end for it yet.

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23. Zanni+6F1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:53:35
>>geek_a+UA1
That's exactly what's being banned. Pages and profiles you like (along with other personal data) is what drives "behavioral advertising."
24. outsid+KF1[view] [source] 2023-11-02 18:57:09
>>leksak+(OP)
I thought it was illegal to only offer the privacy service through paying for it?
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25. neaumu+1G1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:58:05
>>sharem+eD1
this is similar to tiktok getting banned because the data doesnt reside in the US anymore, meanwhile the NSA has unrestricted access and data privacy doesn't apply to foreigners (we can snoop on anybody who's not a US citizen). honestly private data should be illegal, public behavioral data should be public, and censorship is always wrong
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26. eloran+EG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:00:12
>>latexr+s3
Magazines have context though. You buy an art magazine, you'll see a Mercedes ad because it's likely that people who're interested in art make more than average. Facebook without tracking has no context whatsoever, aside from Groups and that's debatable.
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27. polyga+WG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:01:17
>>justap+mD1
> There’s a reason why magazines ads are dying and being replaced by personalized ads. Advertising like that is widely inefficient.

Too bad, if your business model can’t make money without breaking laws and harming people’s rights, do you really deserve to stay in business?

> It’s as valid alternative as telling people to use horses instead of cars to reduce CO2 emissions. They both get from point A to B, right?

More like banning formula 1 cars from suburbs. People survived before without personalized ads, what will not survive is making 10-digits of profit every quarter and the associated butchery of our life and institutions in the pursuit of profit.

replies(2): >>foota+PI1 >>justap+CR1
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28. bluelu+OI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:11:40
>>timeon+dA1
Pay or to be tracked is only allowed for newspapers...
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29. foota+PI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:11:41
>>polyga+WG1
When you're debating the merits of the law in question, it doesn't seem like a valid defense to say "if they can't do business under the law then that's their fault".

If I say "car dealers can't sell cars that go faster than 10mph and if they go out of business then they shouldn't exist", it's clearly fallacious, and I don't see how this is any different.

replies(1): >>kaftoy+lM1
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30. kaftoy+lM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:28:37
>>foota+PI1
It is different. Rules and laws are supposed to make sense, but the one with 10 mph is not. There are limita to 250 kph in Europe and I dont see car dealers going down. Also, for years there are emissions regulators that make life hard for auto makers, but they obey and still sell cars.
replies(3): >>shaftw+jQ1 >>avarun+9S1 >>justap+dS1
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31. shaftw+jQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:48:16
>>kaftoy+lM1
A law limiting top speed to 10 mph would have a massive reduction in accidents and fatalities. That makes sense to me.
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32. itroni+gR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:51:53
>>justap+mD1
Magazine ads are dying because no one buys magazines anymore except when they are in an airport.
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33. justap+CR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:53:04
>>polyga+WG1
> Too bad, if your business model can’t make money without breaking laws and harming people’s rights, do you really deserve to stay in business?

That's not the argument I'm making nor the comment I'm responding to. OP presented non-personalized ads as a viable alternative for their business. It's not. Let's not pretend it is.

It's a totally different conversation from one you try to turn it into.

> More like banning formula 1 cars from suburbs.

It's not, unless there have been F1 cars in every suburb for last decade.

I get it, you hate ads. Great. But that's not what we're talking about.

replies(1): >>polyga+b52
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34. shaftw+JR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:53:18
>>xigoi+7O
"Look at these ads or I will hit you with a hammer"
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35. avarun+9S1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:54:48
>>kaftoy+lM1
> Rules and laws are supposed to make sense

Agreed. So why do none of the EU's moronic laws make sense?

Most normal people are happy when they come across a useful product or service as an ad in their Instagram feed. After these laws, that won't be possible anymore for an entire continent of people.

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36. justap+dS1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:55:09
>>kaftoy+lM1
Anti-car folks will likely disagree with you that 10mph speed limit doesn't make sense.
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37. polyga+b52[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 20:47:26
>>justap+CR1
> It's not, unless there have been F1 cars in every suburb for last decade.

So like banning lead from paint? Wouldn’t someone think of the poor paint makers and landlords?

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38. signal+n72[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 20:58:34
>>timeon+dA1
> This is already present in EU. Spiegel.de and others are like that. Pay or be tracked.

And legal challenges to that are in the works. Some have even been partially upheld. “Pay or okay” done as a binary choice isn’t okay, like anything else, granular consent is important:

https://gdprhub.eu/index.php?title=DSB_(Austria)_-_2023-0.17...

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39. dotanc+fh2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 21:47:14
>>estel+R1
Ad-free does not promise nor even imply tracking-free.

In fact, it would still make sense to track ad-free users, if for no other reason than to better target ads to their family members, coworkers, and friends. They probably like what you like.

And "Bob's birthday is coming up, he would love a Barcelona team t-shirt" would be very convincing.

40. tgsovl+vt2[view] [source] 2023-11-02 22:44:27
>>leksak+(OP)
They will give you two choices: pay, or consent. The decision just tells them that now, over 5 years after GDPR went into force, they have to stop breaking the law by not even asking for consent and claiming "legitimate interest" or "we need this to fulfill a contract with the user".

Even if they get fined the 4% of annual revenue, that'll be a tiny bit of the extra money they illegally made over those 5 years. And now they'll do the pay-or-consent (which may or may not be legal), and if it's illegal, they'll happily argue for another 1-2 years then pay the fine...

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41. bmicra+wv2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 22:56:03
>>beejiu+xz
Facebook doesn't have an inherent right to be profitable in Europe. If the people have decided that through their vote (even if indirectly), then it is what it is and facebook can pull out of that market.
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42. Semaph+Um3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-03 05:24:30
>>xigoi+101
You can not use it. That’s the logic here, that for free consent, a workable alternative has to exist, and some regulators say that "paying" is one, while "not using the biggest social network in the western world" is not.
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43. fsflov+3F3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-03 08:35:47
>>adrr+aD1
Any reference proving this?
replies(1): >>adrr+om4
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44. adrr+om4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-03 13:46:02
>>fsflov+3F3
FB earnings or any earnings from any company that is heavily dependent on performance marketing. And for small businesses.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/small-businesses-cou...

replies(1): >>fsflov+jr4
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45. fsflov+jr4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-03 14:08:45
>>adrr+om4
But did they compare their earning to those with non-tracking, contextual ads?
46. arendt+AP5[view] [source] 2023-11-03 20:09:51
>>leksak+(OP)
As far as I understand the issue, using normal ads (without personalization) would be an option too?
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47. rvba+K0a[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-05 12:03:41
>>justap+mD1
Magazines are dying due to a big wave of anti intellectualism, people not used to read, and people who are poor so they dont want to pay for media. Lots of young people think that the "free" (to read) "journalism" they get online is decent. When it is not. Because good writing and research costs a lot. Meanwhile some intern can write 5 crappy "articles" per day.

Also it has been written many times, but the facebook feed has became total crap: for me 99% are ads and it does not show me any updates from friends. Faster is to go to profiles of friends then scroll through the drip feed that is not even infinite. Also the feed does not show things that I can see in my friends' profiles. But hey, some product manager thinks it is good for longevity of thr product. I can as well enter facebook once per month and manually open their profiles.

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