zlacker

[parent] [thread] 44 comments
1. vel0ci+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-10-04 22:06:31
If we're looking at older phones with removable storage, it usually limited what could be put on the SD card. And in the end the OS and system libraries were still on the on-board storage which would wear out over the years.

And there's good reason for the OS not being on a microSD card. Run a Raspberry Pi without locking the storage and see how fast it'll corrupt itself. Most SD cards have pretty miserable reliability compared to the storage on-board. Imagine if you had to re-image your device every few weeks after your storage device corrupted itself again. Not really a great experience.

replies(9): >>paulry+x7 >>TeMPOr+1e >>ethbr1+6e >>redeem+9j >>eterni+Rp >>rjzzle+Uq >>gtvwil+MI >>waltew+bK >>ngfgnb+uW3
2. paulry+x7[view] [source] 2023-10-04 23:02:28
>>vel0ci+(OP)
Perhaps SDcard isn't the right standard. Or some stress testing certification is in order
3. TeMPOr+1e[view] [source] 2023-10-05 00:01:21
>>vel0ci+(OP)
IDK, I've never had a RPi corrupt an SD card to my knowledge. Also, there are now SD cards optimized for the load patterns similar to that of an OS.

There's unfortunately slightly different issue here: if the phone vendor puts the OS on an user-replaceable SD card, then the UX quality and reliability of the device depends on the SD card vendor, which is a bad position to be in, given how much fraud is happening in this space.

replies(2): >>freedo+6h2 >>ascagn+ok5
4. ethbr1+6e[view] [source] 2023-10-05 00:01:57
>>vel0ci+(OP)
With cloud backup... this isn't as defensible as it used to be.

Today, Apple/Google could design a phone with (a) a user-replacable battery & (b) no flash, only RAM + removable SD storage + long-life EEPROM.

Boot loader, SD validator, and minimal image retrieval goes in EEPROM. Storage contents continually backed up, encrypted, to cloud with delta updates. Customer prompted to replace SD card and device reimagined whenever there's an issue.

Apple/Google sell cloud storage subscriptions.

Aka the cockroach phone.

That they aren't even interested in that model is because they're in a Faustian bargain with cellular carriers to drive device renewals and post-paid plans.

And integrated batteries and flash memory happen to be a convenient "Oh well, we can't possibly design it any other way" excuse.

replies(2): >>admax8+oj >>vxNsr+dD
5. redeem+9j[view] [source] 2023-10-05 00:50:39
>>vel0ci+(OP)
should just use m.2 2230 nvme. should be user replacable, its okay if it needs to be disassembled and its a 30 minute job, but that would solve a whole lot.
replies(1): >>bpye+7n
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6. admax8+oj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 00:53:31
>>ethbr1+6e
That's honestly not a good user experience. Having to buy a new sd card routinely, and better hope you system can detect impending as card failures accurately.

Compared to 5 years of good on board storage performance, with no little bits to accidentally lose. And a gradually degradation of performance after that.

They could possibly design a phone the way you outlined, but people won't buy it.

replies(2): >>TylerE+ck >>eroppl+im
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7. TylerE+ck[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 00:59:39
>>admax8+oj
Not to mention what it’ll do the waterproof rating.
replies(2): >>ethbr1+Yt >>blacko+4I
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8. eroppl+im[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 01:18:54
>>admax8+oj
I think most people don't realize how slow SD cards are compared to conventional flash, too. When you put apps on a SD card on Android, it's always been dog slow. And you're at the mercy of the manufacturer to put a reasonably high-speed interface on it.

There are options; NVMe and CFExpress cards exist. But they're large and create inefficiencies in the phone shell (even M.2 2230, when you take into account the mounting mechanism), and I doubt that people are going to pay that kind of money even when they currently pay it for onboard storage.

replies(1): >>Dylan1+ry
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9. bpye+7n[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 01:26:23
>>redeem+9j
SD Express is PCIe and much smaller, but a full sized SD card still isn’t small. Supposedly microSD Express exists but I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen it…
replies(1): >>p1neco+8x
10. eterni+Rp[view] [source] 2023-10-05 01:52:50
>>vel0ci+(OP)
Most of that is because the OS defaults write about 20 times more crap than anyone needs, and devs consistently do not care about preserving write cycles. There's still a culture of "Beautiful code is everything, hardware is disposable and meant to be upgraded".

An industrial SD card plus a few software changes would largely solve the problem, but I'm not sure it could be done in a backwards-compatible way, some apps might not work if you stopped letting people hammer the disk with crap.

Even with a standard card, phones don't have any issues with FTL firmware level corruption due to power loss, they have a builtin UPS.

But with phone-scale production there's no reason they couldn't define a new SD variant that had SMART diagnostics and guaranteed reliability properties for similar cost to eMMC.

11. rjzzle+Uq[view] [source] 2023-10-05 02:06:18
>>vel0ci+(OP)
I have a love/hate relationship with Sony Xperia phones, they look and feel nice, have a 3.5mm and a microSD slot.

That said, unlike Pixels and OnePlus once the bootloader is unlocked you lose functionality and it's not relockable. It also almost always has some software quirks and I most recently found out that the Xperia 5 I've been eyeing will after 2-3 years of use randomly break and show vertical green or pink lines.

There you have another "well" manufactured phone with external storage that becomes almost unusable faster than the storage degrades without the user being responsible for it.

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12. ethbr1+Yt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 02:40:00
>>TylerE+ck
Do that many people need their phone to be waterproof rated?

I realize it's mandatory from a marketing perspective, but how often is it used?

Accidentally jumping in the pool/ocean/lake with your phone. But past that, I'm not often in submerged situations.

replies(7): >>serf+wz >>0_____+3A >>scarfa+9A >>TylerE+zB >>vel0ci+PE >>nicobu+D81 >>bwooce+Fr1
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13. p1neco+8x[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 03:08:16
>>bpye+7n
Aren't the speed constraints on SD cards due to the controllerless single flash chip design rather than the connector format? Unless you also shoved an ssd controller on the SD Express card I can't see it being much of an improvement.
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14. Dylan1+ry[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 03:22:59
>>eroppl+im
> I think most people don't realize how slow SD cards are compared to conventional flash, too. When you put apps on a SD card on Android, it's always been dog slow. And you're at the mercy of the manufacturer to put a reasonably high-speed interface on it.

It's been a long, long time since I couldn't fit all the apps I wanted on the phone storage. My SD card is mainly for multimedia files, and it's plenty fast for that purpose.

The only performance limit I've hit in recent times was because it was exFAT, not because it was an SD card.

> There are options; NVMe and CFExpress cards exist. But they're large

Ignoring SD Express as a failure to launch, UHS SD cards can be plenty fast if they're designed to be. A hundred megabytes per second is not a significant bottleneck if individual IO operations are fast and it can do many of them.

Also there was that XFMEXPRESS form factor if manufacturers wanted to put an SSD socket into a phone. "card size is 18x14x1.4mm, slightly larger and thicker than a microSD card. It mounts into a latching socket that increases the footprint up to 22.2x17.75x2.2mm."

> and I doubt that people are going to pay that kind of money even when they currently pay it for onboard storage.

That's the real killer incentive, that you can charge huge amounts per terabyte and also force people to buy higher-end phones just to get the ability to buy more storage.

As opposed to the user spending $40 for a 512GB sandisk extreme, and giving the phone maker no extra money.

replies(2): >>vel0ci+uE >>eroppl+UC1
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15. serf+wz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 03:37:28
>>ethbr1+Yt
I always sort of imagine it's a selling point less for the adventure aspect and more for the 'dropped in the toilet' angle.

i've yet to be so unfortunate, but i've met a lot of people with a 'I dropped my phone in the toilet so it's in a bag of rice' story.

let's hope they throw that rice out at the end of the process.

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16. 0_____+3A[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 03:44:44
>>ethbr1+Yt
People routinely ruined phones via submersion or splashed water. I drowned a phone in my pocket while biking in a rainstorm as recently as 2018. You never hear about this anymore.
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17. scarfa+9A[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 03:45:23
>>ethbr1+Yt
You really don’t think people accidentally jump in pool, drop their phone in a puddle, in the sink, in the toilet etc?
replies(1): >>inejge+eF
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18. TylerE+zB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 04:01:52
>>ethbr1+Yt
Nothing is truly waterproof, but IP55 is really weaksauce by modern standards. Modern flagships are IP67 or even IP68.

I live in an area where's it very humid and rains a lot. My phones get wet, a lot, just due to nature. I had one die after I got caught in a massive squall line at an outdoor concert on what was supposed to be a sunny day.

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19. vxNsr+dD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 04:24:58
>>ethbr1+6e
> That they aren't even interested in that model is because they're in a Faustian bargain with cellular carriers to drive device renewals and post-paid plans.

I like your idea but in the US at least most mobile carriers actually don't encourage yearly upgrades as they force you into a multiyear contract for your phone to get "the best deal". In fact, currently both verizon and AT&T have 30+ month payment plans for phones so you're locked into at least 2.5 years. consequently, most people hold on to their phone for 3 years now.

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20. vel0ci+uE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 04:42:48
>>Dylan1+ry
UHS SD can be fast in consecutive read and writes but I've rarely seen good performance in random I/O or lots of small actions.
replies(1): >>blkhaw+8T
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21. vel0ci+PE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 04:47:42
>>ethbr1+Yt
Funny you say this when I was just in a pretty bad rainstorm tonight and got absolutely soaked. I've lost a couple of portable devices getting drenched like that in the past but this time it was just the USB-C port wouldn't charge for an hour while it dried out.

So yeah I would have needed a new phone tomorrow if it wasn't for my phone being waterproof. This kind of stuff happens all the time. I've lost many things from water damage. So many people used to complain about Apple denying warranty claims from water damage from the device just being in a humid area for a long time, now that just doesn't happen.

replies(1): >>guappa+OL
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22. inejge+eF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 04:52:17
>>scarfa+9A
They do, but they were also doing it before the phones were routinely designed to be waterproof, and I don't recall an epidemic of water-related phone-killing incidents.
replies(1): >>prmous+jX
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23. blacko+4I[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 05:31:01
>>TylerE+ck
We had regular Samsung phones with waterproofing, all ports and replaceable battery. It is a myth that only sealed phones can be waterproof.
24. gtvwil+MI[view] [source] 2023-10-05 05:40:28
>>vel0ci+(OP)
Ran a rpi for well > 1yr running Ubuntu server and 3cx off the SD card. Longest uptime was like 90+ days only dropped because my town regularly has power outages. Same card had been in use for a good year prior on another rpi doing a different function. Hasn't missed a beat. SanDisk gold colored one. It's now in another rpi...

Microsd's used to suck(had plenty fail years ago) but it seems like they have gotten pretty good these days.

25. waltew+bK[view] [source] 2023-10-05 05:56:11
>>vel0ci+(OP)
I have an obsolete (with Lineage OS installed) Samsung smartphone with an SD-card. I use it for podcasts and audio books, as it has a jack, and I have a nice non-Bluetooth headphones that I wear most of the time of that listening time. I like to think my internal storage isn’t wearing over and over again, but the SD card, which I can super easily replace any time. Plus, I can replace it with something huge (like extra 128 GB or even more, what is supported) for very cheap. I cannot add extra 128 GB of storage to my iPhone, even if I’m willing to pay the premium. I have just one way: to sell my unit and buy another with more storage.
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26. guappa+OL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 06:17:46
>>vel0ci+PE
I live in a very rainy city, I got soaked several times.

I never once lost a phone to water damage, despite most of the phones I've owned not being waterproof.

My pocket made of regular fabric seems to be sufficient protection.

replies(2): >>saiya-+qS >>dagesh+SZ
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27. saiya-+qS[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 07:40:06
>>guappa+OL
my old Samsung Galaxy s2 died when tripping around Australia, just by being in the car overnight (where I was sleeping too). Apparently enough humidity that in the morning it was dead, board fried up
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28. blkhaw+8T[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 07:48:51
>>vel0ci+uE
It doesn't have to be that way. Its entirely feasible to make a microsd card with a better controller and some ram buffer for fast wear leveling. The best we see today is some mild tuning for IO in A1 and A2 cards.

You have to remember that a current microsd cards is just a general purpose micro-controller and some (probably SPI) flash in a plastic case.

replies(1): >>eroppl+4D1
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29. prmous+jX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 08:28:16
>>inejge+eF
you don't mind so much when it is a 50$ phone, a bit more on a 1100$ one. Not that I understand why anyone would pay more than 250$ in a smartphone really.
replies(1): >>scarfa+bc1
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30. dagesh+SZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 08:50:24
>>guappa+OL
I have, phone in the pocket of my rainjacket, got caught in a serious downpour, water got into the pocket and because it was a rain jacket stayed there to the point it was sodden.

Screen on the phone died.

I see the point of waterproofing phones after that.

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31. nicobu+D81[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 10:26:14
>>ethbr1+Yt
> Accidentally jumping in the pool/ocean/lake with your phone. But past that, I'm not often in submerged situations.

This is the main use case, but it's not to be dismissed considering this is a very common cause of phone failure. If this doubles the lifespan of your phone then it effectively ~halves the cost. Which is a big deal when phones are as expensive as they are.

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32. scarfa+bc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 11:02:43
>>prmous+jX
Well since even the average Android phone’s selling price is $285 the last time I checked, maybe it says more about your lack of insight than anything else?
replies(1): >>prmous+ih1
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33. prmous+ih1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 11:47:09
>>scarfa+bc1
I don't know, I have had company issued high end phones and apart from better camera quality[1] these devices weren't doing things significantly better than my personal 240$ smartphone.

Also, generally people spend an awful lot of money on things out of vanity and social pressure, regardless of their needs and if it is a good decision. Look at new cars prices and how most vehicles purchases are usually overkill for everyone. The most sold car in the US are the Ford F series , Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram trucks before a number of high end SUV. Sure people are free to buy whatever they want but a Honda Fit would be enough for large majority of them and be a smarter financial decision[2]. They mostly do it because they can, not because they need.

[1] which has become fairly decent for anyone accross all ranges in the last few years.

[2] I am not sure it is still sold in the US but I could have chosen another example of a smaller and more affordable vehicle.

replies(1): >>scarfa+ZA1
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34. bwooce+Fr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 12:58:41
>>ethbr1+Yt
After working wireless retail in the early '00s, I will always choose a phone with a high IP rating. Other scenarios I've seen - Phone pushed into sink without realizing while doing dishes and walking away for an hour long phone call, parked convertible with phone in the cupholder, boob sweat, working in a greenhouse going in and out of air conditioning, leaving on a picnic table overnight while camping, water bottle leaking in purse, etc. Also there's utility in feeling confident the phone can survive if you need to wash syrup, baby food, sticky bar residue, etc off it.
replies(1): >>apetre+8B1
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35. scarfa+ZA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 13:51:01
>>prmous+ih1
Yes I’m sure 60% of Americans care about “social pressure” enough to buy a different phone. Trust me, my 80 year old mother doesn’t care about what TikTok influencers think.

Low end Android phones just plain suck when it comes to performance and battery life. Not to mention they rarely get operating system updates.

If you did force me to buy an Android phone, it would be the Pixel.

replies(1): >>prmous+dH1
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36. apetre+8B1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 13:51:47
>>bwooce+Fr1
> Phone pushed into sink without realizing while doing dishes and walking away for an hour long phone call

How did they talk on their phone for an hour without realizing their phone was underwater?

replies(1): >>vel0ci+0J1
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37. eroppl+UC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 13:59:16
>>Dylan1+ry
> Ignoring SD Express as a failure to launch, UHS SD cards can be plenty fast if they're designed to be. A hundred megabytes per second is not a significant bottleneck if individual IO operations are fast and it can do many of them.

As mentioned, random I/O tends to fail, but the other tradeoff here is that fast microSD card slots tend to get extremely hot. Not necessarily "failure" hot (stuff like the ROG had issues from other parts), but uncomfortable to hold, depending on where the thing is going to go.

> As opposed to the user spending $40 for a 512GB sandisk extreme, and giving the phone maker no extra money.

The thing is, price anchoring is a thing, and people are going to look at a phone that costs $400 and needs a $40 Extra Thing and a $500 phone and go "the latter is easier".

replies(1): >>Dylan1+2f2
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38. eroppl+4D1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 13:59:44
>>blkhaw+8T
It doesn't have to, but it is, and an effort like this is going to be off-the-shelf if it ever exists at all.
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39. prmous+dH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 14:22:25
>>scarfa+ZA1
> Trust me, my 80 year old mother doesn’t care about what TikTok influencers think.

nor does she care about operating system updates.

replies(1): >>scarfa+SS1
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40. vel0ci+0J1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 14:31:44
>>apetre+8B1
> in the early '00s

The customer was probably talking on their landline phone for the hour.

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41. scarfa+SS1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 15:18:05
>>prmous+dH1
Actually she does. Once she saw that an old computer running an old version of Windows was no longer going to get updates, she stopped using it. She would be just as cautious about a phone that didn’t get updates
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42. Dylan1+2f2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 17:00:41
>>eroppl+UC1
> The thing is, price anchoring is a thing, and people are going to look at a phone that costs $400 and needs a $40 Extra Thing and a $500 phone and go "the latter is easier".

Oh definitely. I would too. I dream of the price being only $200/TB.

The biggest storage upgrade for a normal iPhone is +384GB for $300 (Oof). If you upgrade to the Max model you can get +768GB for $400.

A Galaxy S23 can get +128GB for $60, a Galaxy S23+ can get +256GB for $120, and a Galaxy S23 Ultra can get +768GB for $420.

A Pixel 8 can get +128GB for $60, and a Pixel 8 Pro can get +896GB for $400.

If you include the price increase of better base models, to get access to bigger options, then $700/TB is a good ballpark figure.

I think this pricing is a little bit better than when I last looked, but it's still very bad.

The availability of >512GB is growing but still flaky and usually requires extra expensive base models. While in comparison microsd has had cheap 1TB for a good while, and 1.5TB for $150 becomes available later this month.

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43. freedo+6h2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 17:11:15
>>TeMPOr+1e
Phones could ship with a good SD card which will get the vast majority of consumers to end-of-useful-life for their device. At that point if a user replaces it with crap, it's kind of on them. Similar to how cell phone chargers are now.
44. ngfgnb+uW3[view] [source] 2023-10-06 06:15:04
>>vel0ci+(OP)
all modern stern pinball machines (everything spike/spike ii, from 2015 on) boot linux on sd card
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45. ascagn+ok5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-06 16:33:51
>>TeMPOr+1e
I've never had an RPi corrupt an SD card, but I had one (running pi-hole) wear out a card over the course of about six months. It was pretty easy to get everything back up and running (it needed a new card with the most recent version of the default OS package), and I was able to resolve the situation long-term by using log2ram to space out writes to the SD card (at the risk of losing a day's worth of logs).
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