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1. raducu+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-27 05:47:40
Similar case in Denmark/Romania where a baby was taken from his romanian parents because of the shaken baby syndrome, parents spent time in jail, but the hemorage continued over time so they had to concede it wasn't the shaken baby syndromd.
replies(2): >>cornho+w9 >>tokai+Px
2. cornho+w9[view] [source] 2023-09-27 07:19:07
>>raducu+(OP)
The trouble is: shaken baby syndrome is real and well documented. Because the crime is so abhorrent, people strongly want to believe the diagnostic tools to be much more sensitive and accurate than they really seem to be.

It's the classic "N guilty men" problem, aka Blackstone's ratio: if you risk putting one innocent person in jail, how many guilty people you need to catch to make it morally justifiable? 5, 10? 100?

You have to pick a number, or else no kind of criminal justice can exist.

replies(2): >>Fire-D+oc >>Justsi+AB1
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3. Fire-D+oc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 07:46:12
>>cornho+w9
In the article it clearly states that shaking does not cause the hemorrhage that's currently considered "shaken baby syndrome". It literally says there aren't documented cases where the shaking was captured on tape/testified and the symptoms present at the same time.

It's more likely that a fall (or being thrown) would cause the symptoms.

replies(2): >>hoseja+ze >>robbie+pD
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4. hoseja+ze[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 08:03:34
>>Fire-D+oc
I read it as no cases where shaking caused ONLY the retinal/subdural haemorrhage, without any other trauma.
replies(1): >>rossan+1i
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5. rossan+1i[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 08:31:23
>>hoseja+ze
That's indeed what I said, but I was cautious. I'd have to dig into the latest literature to be sure, but I don't remember seeing even 1 case where shaking with no impact was independently witnessed or videotaped, and was shown to cause retinal/subdural haemorrhage, with or without any other form of trauma.

In any case, these situations are extremely rare, much more than those involving any kind of head impact.

6. tokai+Px[view] [source] 2023-09-27 10:34:42
>>raducu+(OP)
Even if the kids hemorrhaging continued, it was brought to the ER initially with fractures in the right side of the skull.
replies(2): >>raducu+001 >>WarOnP+kT1
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7. robbie+pD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 11:26:09
>>Fire-D+oc
You need to work on your comprehension
replies(1): >>dang+s22
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8. raducu+001[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 13:39:29
>>tokai+Px
I did not know this detail, I know the Danish state offered apologies, the charges were dropped and the child was returned to the parents.
replies(1): >>tokai+621
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9. tokai+621[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 13:49:56
>>raducu+001
Yeah, nobody know the exact parts of the case. As its semi-secret (to protect the child and parents I guess). While the parents were cleared, this case is definitely not appropriate to this discussion as it was definitely not only hemorrhaging that started it. If a hospital gets a toddler with fractures on their skull, society should damn well figure out how it got them and stop it from happening again.
replies(3): >>grog45+fc2 >>aidenn+fu2 >>parado+PA2
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10. Justsi+AB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 16:10:57
>>cornho+w9
The better way to think of what you said is:

If toyota cars unintentionally accelerate and kill people, but sometimes people mistakenly accelerate and kill people. If I am driving a toyota and accelerate and kill a person, if 100% of all cops/investigators believe the first case doesn't exist, and the second case is the only possible answer, I will be thrown in jail without a second thought; my life is destroyed, and it wasn't even my fault.

But more than that, we don't even know what the ratios are, is it 90% / 10%? is it 10% / 90%? is it 50/50? Because everyone believes it is 0%/100% we can't make the "N guilty men" decision at all, so we need a hard stop, evidence, and re-start.

I know you were downvoted, but I think your thoughts are exactly the problem I am trying to point out. So thank you for commenting on it.

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11. WarOnP+kT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 17:20:31
>>tokai+Px
> it was brought to the ER initially with fractures in the right side of the skull.

Just to defuse this a bit. My #4 used to collect skull fractures. He'd slip away in a nanosecond and would be 50' above us two heartbeats later. We put him in a padded helmet for a year or so. It stayed on sometimes.

As an adult he can still disappear in an empty room.

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12. dang+s22[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 17:57:28
>>robbie+pD
Please don't cross into personal attack. You can make your substantive points without that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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13. grog45+fc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 18:33:39
>>tokai+621
> If a hospital gets a toddler with fractures on their skull, society should damn well figure out how it got them and stop it from happening again.

What a leap (the kind the article is calling out by the way). Do you really think all causes for toddler skull fractures are a societal problem?

replies(1): >>ameist+9G2
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14. aidenn+fu2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 19:46:41
>>tokai+621
As a toddler, my daughter fell out of her bed from a height of less than 18 inches and broke her collar-bone. It seems plausible to me that if she had landed on her head rather than her shoulder, she could have fractured her skull. I'm not sure that society needs to be in the business of preventing all falls from such a small height!
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15. parado+PA2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 20:15:54
>>tokai+621
I fully understand where you are coming from, but have you had a toddler?
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16. ameist+9G2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 20:38:27
>>grog45+fc2
I do.

If a child has a serious injury the circumstances should be examined, as it should be quite rare for children to have serious injuries.

That's why places have Child Death and Serious Injury Review Committees.

replies(1): >>michae+iZ3
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17. michae+iZ3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-28 06:24:20
>>ameist+9G2
So in order to form an informed opinion we have to figure out the relative costs and benefits of various options. Lets start by examining assumptions. Here we have

Fractures among children: incidence and impact on daily activities

https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/3/194

wherein we discover that kids 0-12 break bones at an incidence of 128 per 10,000. Over 12 years that's more like 1536 or about 15% of kids if injuries were evenly distributed, although they probably aren't. Still in the right ballpark.

So serious injuries among kids are incredibly common.

If we launch investigations and get it right 95% of the time we will none the less fuck up millions of kids lives. We would probably be better off selectively investigating when there is at least some reason to believe something is afoot instead of every injury.

replies(1): >>ameist+ev4
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18. ameist+ev4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-28 11:14:42
>>michae+iZ3
First things first - 85% of the fractures you're talking about are arm and leg fractures. Skull fractures, which was what I was talking about, are a significantly smaller number.

But yes, we should investigate why the child broke their arm. Does that need to be an in-depth investigation? Not usually. But it's important to understand why these things happen; that's where the data for the study you cited comes from.

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