zlacker

[parent] [thread] 27 comments
1. steveB+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-08 12:58:19
Scraping social media platforms may be against their terms of service, but its not illegal or unethical.

People seem to think social media is akin to private communications where it's more akin to the public square. Making your IG/FB/whatever profile private doesn't change that.

In NYC for example, there's been a large uptick in teen shootings, many adjacent to schools, and a lot of it involves the idiots posting on social media before & after. One tool could be simply scraping social media for these postings. Another alternate, pre-internet tool was stop&frisk.

While you have a constitutional right to not be searched without consent/probably cause, you do not have a constitutional right to spouting off in the public square without consequence. What you say publicly can & will be used against you in the court of law.

Putting out an IG post of yourself with illegal guns or inciting a shooting is no more private than printing out posters of the same and putting them up around the neighborhood.

replies(5): >>throwa+c2 >>dylan6+S4 >>NoMore+H9 >>coucha+gb >>noman-+fh
2. throwa+c2[view] [source] 2023-09-08 13:13:00
>>steveB+(OP)
> you do not have a constitutional right to spouting off in the public square without consequence

Actually, in the U.S., you literally have that specific constitutional right.

The First Amendment protects "spouting off in the public square without consequence" via the Freedoms of Assembly (the right to gather), Speech (say what you like without consequence), Religion (believe what you like), and the right to petition the government.

Loud complaining or even vague and non-specific threats (such as "I'll make you pay for this!") are actually protected by the First Amendment.

There are very rare and limited exceptions, such as "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action".

replies(3): >>10000t+c3 >>spunke+Q3 >>UncleM+Ql
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3. 10000t+c3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:17:56
>>throwa+c2
Let's be clear here. You have the right to spout off in the public square without government consequences. Others, including Meta itself, are still free to hold you accountable for what you say.
replies(2): >>throwa+s3 >>fsfe35+ib
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4. throwa+s3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:19:59
>>10000t+c3
The next sentence: "What you say publicly can & will be used against you in the court of law", so governmental consequences is what the OP was referring to.

It seems like the OP might have been conflating free speech with admissions of guilt for other crimes, but "spouting off" is not, and must never be, a crime.

replies(1): >>lcnPyl+t6
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5. spunke+Q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:22:50
>>throwa+c2
If “spouting off” includes incriminating yourself then there’s nothing stopping law enforcement from using what you say in the public square as evidence in court. Thus, if IG is a public square, then scraping IG is also fair game for producing suspects.
replies(1): >>throwa+15
6. dylan6+S4[view] [source] 2023-09-08 13:27:41
>>steveB+(OP)
>Making your IG/FB/whatever profile private doesn't change that.

If someone tells you something in private in a public square in a way that nobody else in the public square can hear it, like lowering the volume of their voice so nobody else can hear, then it is possible to discuss in private in a public setting. There is no obligation to immediately share that private information with the entire public square just because the public square was used. This isn't some FOSS with a licensing agreement that says it must be made public.

You can use the features of a social platform to share with a chosen group of people while not allowing the entirety of the platform access. That's what private means. Not respecting that for sake of "it's a public platform" is just that person being a dick. Whether that's you holding this opinion or a scrapper justifying their manner if not respecting the poster's intent, it's all people with utter lack of respect. It's an AB conversation, and you're trying to be C. We've already indicated you're not the intended audience by setting to private. You doing everything you can to get around that is, again, you being a dick

replies(2): >>vorpal+46 >>steveB+R7
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7. throwa+15[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:28:25
>>spunke+Q3
Of course, if you incriminate yourself while spouting off (or while engaged in any other activity, like writing in your diary), then you are producing evidence of a different crime, but spouting off is not a crime in itself.
replies(1): >>steveB+Z5
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8. steveB+Z5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:32:25
>>throwa+15
literally what I wrote, no? "you do not have a constitutional right to spouting off in the public square without consequence. What you say publicly can & will be used against you in the court of law."

like I can say what I want, but if I say "I DID CRIMES" then guess what.. that could be used as evidence that I DID CRIMES

replies(2): >>throwa+q7 >>fsfe35+1b
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9. vorpal+46[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:33:30
>>dylan6+S4
So you're upset because cops are being "dicks" while investigating crimes?

Having public conversations and having cops insert themselves is.. actually really well established case law. Yes the cops can listen in when you have no expectation of privacy.

We don't want cops having and abusing backdoors but "playing the game" is perfectly legit. The cops do not owe you some sense of playing gently.

replies(2): >>dylan6+A6 >>steveB+W6
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10. lcnPyl+t6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:35:23
>>throwa+s3
> It seems like the OP might have been conflating free speech with admissions of guilt for other crimes

By my reading, it wasn’t OP who did this conflating.

replies(1): >>throwa+U7
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11. dylan6+A6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:36:03
>>vorpal+46
>Yes the cops can listen in when you have no expectation of privacy.

I'm not sure this is the sentence you meant. Of course anybody can listen in when you have no expectation of privacy. Without a court ordered search warrant, they can't listen in when you do have expectation of privacy.

replies(2): >>lcnPyl+a8 >>vorpal+r8
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12. steveB+W6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:37:40
>>vorpal+46
Exactly. The offline analogy is in the old mafia busting days. Let's say there was a bar with dozens or 100s of people regularly in it, and it was well known that mafia and mafia associates frequented it to discuss mafia activity.

If a cop were to gain entry, or have a paid informant gain entry, whether by paying a cover, or bluffing association with a regular, that seems well within the law.

This is not someones house, or your bedroom, or the cops picking a lock & busting down a door. Social media is just an online "third place". It is not work, it is not your home, it is not private.. it is public square, even if you mark yourself "private" and only accept 200 followers instead of 300.

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13. throwa+q7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:40:50
>>steveB+Z5
"Spouting off" is an idiom that means, essentially, "angrily complaining". It does not mean publicly confessing to a crime.
replies(1): >>lcnPyl+na
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14. steveB+R7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:43:06
>>dylan6+S4
I don't think this analogy makes sense. If you are in a public setting having a lowered-voice conversation you think is private, but you speak in a way that more people hear you than intended.. then.. you don't have any right to have that be inadmissible in court.

Just like posting things on your social media profile and 1000s of people see it instead of 100s of people you intended.

Another offline analogy would be - talking on your cellphone, you have the right to be free of warrantless wiretap.

However, if you sit down in a bar that you thought "was cool" and take a phone call, but the bar happens to have accidentally let a cop or "narc" in .. and they overheard your end of the phone call because you talk too loud, then what they testify hearing is totally admissible in court, and you are an idiot.

replies(1): >>dylan6+Kk
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15. throwa+U7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:43:26
>>lcnPyl+t6
>>> you do not have a constitutional right to spouting off in the public square without consequence. What you say publicly can & will be used against you in the court of law.

"spouting off..used against you in a court of law"

But, even if the OP didn't intend for these two to be tied together in this way, then a very strong constitutional right still exists for spouting off, so whether conflation occurred or not is moot.

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16. lcnPyl+a8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:44:41
>>dylan6+A6
None of that is wrong but as I understand, it’s established precedent that a “public square” setting does not provide a legitimate expectation of privacy.
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17. vorpal+r8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:45:57
>>dylan6+A6
Me being deluded into having a sense of privacy over Facebook doesn't magically create the need for a warrant.

Facebook is not private, neither is Twitter, especially not the profiles on Facebook.

replies(1): >>dylan6+El
18. NoMore+H9[view] [source] 2023-09-08 13:52:41
>>steveB+(OP)
> but its not illegal or unethical.

It's not only unethical and illegal, it is easily proven to be both. Law enforcement in the United States has, as its ultimate authority, a foundational legal document known as the Constitution. This document makes it very clear that it is illegal to search someone's (not even citizen, mind you, this applies to all humans) person, papers, or effects without a warrant.

The only reason to "scrape social media" is when you're doing it without a warrant. If you have a warrant, it becomes quite easy to request that data directly from Facebook.

> People seem to think social media is akin to private communications where it's more akin to the public square.

In any other argument, I would agree that it is a "public square". But the police specifically aren't permitted into this public square when acting as police officers. It is unethical and illegal.

> While you have a constitutional right to not be searched without consent/probably cause,

No, not even those things are sufficient. You have a right to not be searched without a properly issued search warrant.

> you do not have a constitutional right to spouting off in the public square without consequence.

In fact, you do actually have this right.

> Putting out an IG post of yourself with illegal guns

You cannot post on IG with "illegal guns". The only thing IG allows you to post are pixels in raster images. Photoshopping yourself holding the BFG-9000 isn't a crime, and it's not even "probable cause".

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19. lcnPyl+na[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:55:40
>>throwa+q7
> In NYC for example, there's been a large uptick in teen shootings, many adjacent to schools, and a lot of it involves the idiots posting on social media before & after. (emphasis mine)

“Spouting off” is an idiom that can also mean “speaking without a filter” and that’s what OP meant in this case.

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20. fsfe35+1b[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 13:58:46
>>steveB+Z5
Not sure if you all read the article, but the controversy IS NOT about people confessing to crimes on Facebook. It is people who might have friends (who they dont have befriended on Facebook) and thus might be guilty by association and suddenly all the mights turn into a Dossier of a potential criminal. Some magic black box decides if you did crimes or not.
21. coucha+gb[view] [source] 2023-09-08 13:59:57
>>steveB+(OP)
> In NYC for example, there's been a large uptick in teen shootings, many adjacent to schools, and a lot of it involves the idiots posting on social media before & after.

Do you have a citation for this that doesn't just parrot an NYPD source?

replies(1): >>steveB+Wr
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22. fsfe35+ib[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:00:01
>>10000t+c3
The firm was also creating fake profiles on FB. It isnt clear if "what you say" even came from you!
23. noman-+fh[view] [source] 2023-09-08 14:30:36
>>steveB+(OP)
The other commenters have done a great job of retorting this terrible take but I'll add that NY's Stop & Frisk program, after not working and being incredibly racist, was deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
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24. dylan6+Kk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:47:25
>>steveB+R7
I stated: "like lowering the volume of their voice so nobody else can hear,"

Then you come back with: "but you speak in a way that more people hear you than intended.."

You just changed what I specifically said so it would fit your narrative. Yes, you can be in a bar and think you're talking quietly, but the 3 pints and 2 shots you've consumed means that you're still yelling, just means you're a drunken fool. If you're in a restaurant or some other public setting while sober, you can actually talk to someone without the rest of the public hearing.

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25. dylan6+El[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:51:06
>>vorpal+r8
Yes, I'm deluded for expecting people to have common decency and respect people's wishes. It also makes you a dick for not being willing to respect someone's wishes. You feel that all of the data that someone posts automatically means you should be able to consume it even though you specifically were not included just sounds like you have issues of being left out. Whatever the issue, just don't be a dick and know when you're not wanted to be a part of something and just accept it.
replies(1): >>vorpal+BS
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26. UncleM+Ql[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:52:01
>>throwa+c2
Time, place, and manner restrictions - even very intense ones - have been found constitutional. US v O'Brien has never been overturned. The government was able to restrict protest they didn't like with the thinnest of veneers of compelling government interest.
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27. steveB+Wr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 15:15:49
>>coucha+gb
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/30/nyregion/nyc-teen-murder-...
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28. vorpal+BS[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 17:04:54
>>dylan6+El
Cops aren't there to respect your wishes. Full stop.

You can have whatever wishes you want, but if you are behaving inconsistently with the truth, you're going to spend a lot of time being wrong and having your wishes disobeyed.

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