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66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

submitted by pg_123+(OP) on 2023-08-26 08:47:17 | 137 points 340 comments
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9. NavinF+I3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 09:38:05
>>unmole+w3
I suspect the survey results will change drastically if each person was shown this table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
12. laserl+T3[view] [source] 2023-08-26 09:39:27
>>pg_123+(OP)
NPR's recent Planet Money episode on the topic: [0].

[0] Europe gets more vacations than the U.S. Here are some reasons why. https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-ho...

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53. rpadov+j5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 09:55:14
>>renewi+C4
I count 10 European companies on this list, and 20 US.

Maybe is not as bad as you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_r...

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86. andrel+w6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 10:03:34
>>NavinF+I3
The difference is much smaller if you look at the median disposable income instead.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per...

The big skewness (difference between the mean and the median) suggests that a lot of wealth is concentrated at the top and that many people are in fact worse off than Europeans.

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94. moreli+N6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 10:05:38
>>tommek+j6
Got some further info? I can only find reports that this is common misinterpretation.

https://www.rechtsindex.de/arbeitsrecht/490-jahresurlaub-mus...

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100. mmmmmb+X6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 10:07:08
>>speedg+d5
It seems a bit disingenuous to frame it that way. Perhaps they are just mindful of the consequences, e.g. increased costs. There was a referendum in Switzerland on increasing the minimum annual leave from four weeks to six, and two thirds of voters rejected it. [0] The major argument against it was the anticipated cost to the economy.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17335444

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108. mmmmmb+m7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 10:11:14
>>n_ary+W6
I'm sure that the GP comment referred to total costs, not just tuition. Cost of living in a German city for 5-6 years can definitely add up to 30k-100k. Note that the costs of attendance typically cited by US schools similarly include cost of living, e.g. housing and meals (e.g. [0]).

[0] https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-atten...

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117. quonn+P7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 10:14:53
>>lqet+C6
Here is a realistic estimate for Munich.

A room costs minimum 350 Euros or may easily cost 1000.

Food and going out costs at least 100 Euros or healthy food 200-300.

The subway ticket at that time cost 70 per month.

There are some additional costs such as health insurance etc.

Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me.

Spending a semester abroad as is common is usually far more expensive.

And by law your parents have to pay. You are not required to even work.

On average parents are required to finance housing and food with 930 per month.

Source: https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherunge...

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126. quonn+p8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 10:20:11
>>tommek+06
Some sources:

35.000-45.000 for the Bachelor alone.

https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherunge... (Verbraucherzentrale, semi-public consumer protection agency)

10.000 per year:

https://m.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/frag-den-m... (one of the top quality newspapers in Germany)

36.000 und 75.000 per child:

https://www.sparkasse.de/pk/ratgeber/bildung/studium/studien... (Sparkasse, pretty much the largest credit union)

Up to 133.000 (1851 per month):

https://www.studis-online.de/studienkosten/

But sure, believe what you want.

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140. xetifa+j9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 10:29:10
>>stop50+C8
Yes, but my employer can fire me (in some cases) if I am sick for more than 30 days in a year.

https://www.wirtschaftsforum.de/tipps/welche-anzahl-an-krank...

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170. bjelke+6b[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 10:48:32
>>quonn+s5
In Sweden you get a student loan and a grant to pay for housing, food, transport etc from CSN. [1] The grant is about 1/3 of the total sum.

I studied at university and my parents paid nothing. Even as an adult student could I go back and get the grant part. In Sweden the state pays for you to study.

[1] https://www.csn.se/languages/english/student-grants-and-loan...

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199. people+ld[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 11:11:41
>>BlargM+G9
> Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days

From what I know, I work for a very large insurance company, it's mostly healthcare department due to consequences of COVID. Which shouldn't have happened, but it id.

> This include Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions

I'm not German and I do not particularly trust Germany, in fact I think it's one of the worst Western European country to live and work.

> A few weeks off barely makes a dent

But it makes a difference, that's the point.

I was simply pointing out that paid vacation it's a tool that's very useful for companies too, as for the 70s and th 80s, I was there, it was much worse than today.

My parents worked for the national healthcare in my Country, in 12 hours shift, 5 consecutive nights. Now it's 8 hour shifts for a maximum of two consecutive nights and then you get mandatory 36 hours off and morning shifts for a week.

Try working 6 days a week for a month and then 5 days a week for a month and see how much those "only few days" make a dent in your well being.

> Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore.

I work 220 days/year and I'm off 145 days, it's pretty standard here if you have a standard contract, so no freelance, no contractor, no off the books, etc. (230 work days might be closer to the average, I got +10 days of holidays for thermal treatment, to cure my chronic sinusitis, yes, we have that too and the State also pays for the treatments)

Which is not exactly a "few weeks".

Could be better, but could be US style or Japan style.

p.s. the law in japan just forces employers out of work at least for a few days to counter their extreme workaholic culture, which is nothing like what we have here in Europe.

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...)

Minimum mandatory paid vacation days, normalized for a five-day workweek:

Japan: 6–10 days

My Country: 23–28 days

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202. throw0+Jd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 11:16:03
>>cloogs+K4
> Also, I can't just get fired without cause. And if I do get laid off, I have 3 months of grace period, plus potentially years of unemployment money.

Which causes companies to be very slow in hiring people, because if business turns they have less flexibility. European countries have some of the highest (youth) unemployment rates in the OECD:

* https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm

* https://www.oecd.org/employment/unemployment-rates-oecd-upda...

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255. anothe+ss[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 13:20:49
>>throw0+Jd
In Ireland at least, there's a probationary period of up to six months where you can be fired at will.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-...

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272. shrimp+pD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 14:38:34
>>jakewi+t5
The median is $120k. https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope...

And that's selecting for a particularly senior role. Most people are what that site calls "computer programmers", whose median is $93k.

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276. labora+ME[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 14:50:18
>>jakewi+t5
Do you have a source for either of the numbers? Not sure a credible source even exists for the figures we are looking for, but I would be surprised if they showed the difference to be that large nationwide. A quick search gives me significantly lower medians for the US (maybe you wanted mean?).

Even with reliable figures, you definitely cannot just "do the math yourself pretty fast". You are ignoring a whole bunch of things like cost of living differences, working hours, working environment, anything that comes on top of the "gross" like employer pension and insurance (not just health) contributions. For example, the average working hours in developed Europe is 10-20% lower than in the US[1].

Also, as others have mentioned, you can't really take one specific profession and extrapolate. The European labor market is definitely less free-market and by design slower to adapt to shifts. There is a cultural preference for more equitable pay even at the expense of the so-called meritocracy. Software developer salaries in the US have perhaps increased faster than other professions, and less so in Europe. Maybe that's unfair, but the inequality that results from allowing labor markets to move at market-speed causes its own problems.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...

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283. seanp2+pN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 15:54:15
>>danari+lB
Just for some additional context here, look at average housing prices for a single-family home, not even something nice, I mean like 1000sqft 2/2 in a neighborhood without a drive-by shooting once per week. Calculate the mortgage payment on that with the current 7-8% rate. Calculate how much you bring home net on $150k after taxes. Now you’re on your way to seeing why that’s basically “low income” (technically $104k/yr for a single person living alone): https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/low-income-media...

Wait until you find out about Prop 13 and how that new 80 year old $1.5m house you bought costs 10x in taxes what everyone else on the block pays because they got there in the 70s and 80s.

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293. sershe+Y61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 17:55:11
>>lionko+n3
Hmm, housing in Europe is more expensive than in the US, especially per square meter. Not needing to drive a car is a preference and Americans clearly don't have the same one, it's not an economic advantage for most, and cars in US are cheaper to own. From my vacation experience groceries etc in Europe are much more expensive.

I mean they have disposable income measures that account for all that as well as welfare programs. In the end disposable incomes in the US make half of the first world look like third world:

https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm (click table, and pick gross including transfers)

You can also see % of that spent on housing, US is lower than most EU countries

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294. pjmlp+L71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 17:59:48
>>shrimp+IC
https://aitechtrend.com/the-indian-witch-companies-redefinin...
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296. paulmd+y81[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 18:03:38
>>vikave+Ve
this is actually required in some finance-centered fields in the US, because historically many frauds/ponzis/etc have fallen apart when their key players happened to be out-of-office or incommunicado for a few weeks, and a fresh set of eyes got to look at the books. "wait, that doesn't look right... hmmm..."

https://www.fdic.gov/regulations/safety/manual/section4-2.pd...

> Vacation Policies

> Banks should have a policy that requires all officers and employees to be absent from their duties for an uninterrupted period of not less than two consecutive weeks. Absence can be in the form of vacation, rotation of duties, or a combination of both activities. Such policies are highly effective in preventing embezzlements, which usually require a perpetrator’s ongoing presence to manipulate records, respond to inquiries, and otherwise prevent detection. The benefits of such policies are substantially, if not totally, eroded if the duties normally performed by an individual are not assumed by someone else.

> Where a bank’s policies do not conform to the two-week recommended absence, examiners should discuss the benefits of this control with senior management and the board of directors and encourage them to annually review and approve the bank’s actual policy and any exceptions. In cases where a two-week absent-from-duty policy is not in place, the institution should establish appropriate compensating controls that are strictly enforced. Any significant deficiencies in an institution's vacation policy or compensating controls should be discussed in the ROE and reflected in the Management component of the Uniform Financial Institutions Rating System (UFIRS). Note: Management should consider suspending or restricting an individual’s normal IT access rights during periods of prolonged absence, especially for employees with remote or high-level access rights. At a minimum, management should consider monitoring and reporting remote access during periods of prolonged absence.

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297. dang+A91[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 18:10:27
>>bitcha+pB
You posted nationalistic flamebait several times in this thread. That's not ok, regardless of which country you have a problem with. Please don't post like this to HN again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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319. memefr+8G1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-26 22:06:17
>>speedg+Gg
"High-Income Taxpayers Paid the Majority of Federal Income Taxes. In 2020, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.2 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 22.2 percent of total AGI and paid 42.3 percent of all federal income taxes."

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-fe...

In New Zealand, about 12% of individuals pay about 50% of personal income tax, and the top 3% pay about a quarter. That doesn't take into account the amount they are taxed indirectly through GST or through company tax on companies they own shares in.

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340. dopido+uZn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-02 16:40:45
>>0xDEF+1f
Exact figures : https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1419

It’s progressive, from 0% to 45%. A rule of thumb is “a month of salary”

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